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'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 12:34 AM |
so...does the a/an grammatical situation apply only to nouns...or to an adjective, as well?
1 - i bought a(n) amazing monkey the other day
2 - ethan, M.D., is a(n) hairy orangutan who stole my sanity
3 - sammy will be a(n) amazing astronaut some day
ok. since 3 is obvious. i'd think 'an amazing monkey' would be correct. but, isn't there some rule about you should be able to remove adjectives from a sentence with no negative results or something? 'an monkey' doesn't work, really. but, 'an hairy orangutan' sounds weird, obviously. but 'an orangutan' doesn't so much. there is certainly the possibility that i just made up this aforementioned 'some rule' thing, though, which would likely settle the whole question.
i know i could look this up, but hearing people's reasons is far more entertaining. i'm going to start posting my psychological problems for advising here as well. |
-Gnimini // gnomish wizard facinated with tailoring
-Mirg // young human ranger
-Dredger Hack'nchant // dwarven spellsword
-Hallelujah // gnomish singer and songwriter
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"i just can't wait till this squirrel mating season is over, those bug |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 01:06 AM |
I'm no English student - but... dude... its vowel sounds
an amazing astronaut
an excellent astronaut
a terrific astronant
and its vowel sounds not just vowels... so exceptions like the word hour -
we will start an hour from now
Thats mostly what i know... theres probably AN english teacher or major around these forums that can give more rules.. and explain it better |
~ Nay'Finn |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 01:11 AM |
I always thought the rule came strictly from articulation. The n is used to seperate the article "a" from the sound of the vowel for the next word, for purposes of speaking quickly and flowingly. I've seen the presences of such things in other languages too...
In French for Example... if you say Les Fleurs, you say "Lay" for Les, but if you have a vowel opening the next word, like "autres" or "hommes" (h's are silent) You pronounce it "Layz" Like "Lay-zo-tra" or "Lay-zum" (Les autres, Les hommes)
I think it's a failsafe to keep the accented/unaccented rhythmic pattern to everyday syllabic conversation, but maybe I just think that because I'm a musician.
An opera
A house
A cat
A dog
An office
An organism
A mammal
An animal |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:03 AM |
It is definitely "an" before all words starting with vowels, or starting with "h". For all words starting with other consonants it is "a".
This is regardless of whether the word is a noun or adjective etc.
an astronaut
an amazing asttonaut
an elephant
an igloo
an orange
an umbrella
an hour-glass
a balloon
a candle-stick
etc. etc. |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:05 AM |
Technically it applies to everything, but h is also a vowel in this respect.
So it's actually 'an house' not a house.
An hairy beast.
An hundred crowns.
But most people don't do that these days (even the BBC have started to occasionally drop it).
Interestingly it's also responsible for several of our words changing spelling - aprons were originally naprons I think. |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:19 AM |
| I'm pretty sure i was more right... vowel sounds... |
~ Nay'Finn |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 04:29 AM |
| 'hundred', 'house' and 'hairy' don't start with a vowel sound, yet 'an' is correct for all of these. |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 05:06 AM |
Actually /h/ used to be viewed differently to other consonants, so it makes sense that it would be "an hotel", etc. I think the pronunciation of /h/ has changed over time so that these days "a hotel" actually sounds better to us, but "an hotel" is still technically (prescriptively) correct.
*puts linguist hat on*
It could be to do with the way /h/ is pronounced (and I'm no phoneticist so this is just my speculation :p). It's called a velar fricative. The sound is made further back in the throat, with no stoppage of the air. There is no stop between "a" and "hotel" if you pronounce the /h/ as a velar fricative. So "an hotel" would be better because otherwise there is no way to distinguish the indefinite article "a/an" from the noun "hotel", no way to separate the words - they just sort of blur into one.
However something that certainly happens in British English (don't know about other English dialects) is glottal reinforcement - making a sound *sound* as though it has a stop somewhere by using the throat to create one. And I *think* it's possible that the reason we think "a hotel" is ok is because we use glottal reinforcement on the /h/ so that the two words "a" and "hotel" don't totally blend into one another.
Another thing that happens is that the /h/ gets dropped altogether ("an 'otel") in which case "an" is definitely preferred - something which serves to back up my random theorising. .
Note: Random theorising is just that, and is not prescriptive but descriptive - so probably no help at all.
*takes linguist hat off* |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 05:16 AM |
Ah, here, simpler:
The rule for "BBC English" is that if the initial syllable of the "h" word is unstressed (historical) one uses "an", whereas if it is stressed (history), one uses "a".
Not sure if this is still the case since "BBC English" doesn't really exist anymore. |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 05:21 AM |
What about a in combination with use?
Isn't it "a use"? An use simply doesn't sound very correct imho. (Of course I'm not a native speaker of the language of exceptions) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 05:49 AM |
Yeah, I think you're right Phoenix - if you go by the "stressed/unstressed" distinction, by default all monosyllabic words have to be stressed, so it should be "a use".
Edit: Hmph but then what about "an ear".
I think my random theorising works much better than the silly BBC English.
There is a separation between "a" and "use" because we pronounce "use" /yoos/ - it's a /y/ sound rather than a /u/ sound. And /y/ sound as in "yuh" is consonantal. |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 06:07 AM |
For the life of me, I never was able to say why something is used in English. As with all languages I know (listen to me, seems like I know 10 or so....) I just listen. If it sounds okay, then that's the correct form. ;)
Then again in Dutch sometimes things sound good and are still wrong.
Anyway, I find that English has way too many exceptions to have one specific rule cover the entire load. But yours sounds about the best, Yasmyn. ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 06:56 AM |
Hmm.
Indefinate article usage (A/An)
The indefinate article is "a"- almost always pronounced as a schwa and unstressed. I can't do a schwa (Upside down e here, so I'm just writing "uh", which is the sound. Sorta. "A" in about.)
"A car"-> "I brought /uh/ car".
In front of vowels, an is used.
"An elephant"... again, almost always schwad and unstressed.
"I brought /uhn/ elephant."
That's the perscriptive rule, there are no exceptions.
However, it has to be noted that the rule is based upon sounds, rather than spelling- as was mentioned before.
It's "A user", because that's "/Uh yoozer/".. as Yas said. It doesn't relate to the number of Syllables in the word.
And so on, and so forth.
-Barnas
[Edit: You might want to ignore the schwa stuff. It's mostly to aid in a ramble that I decided not to type out.] |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 03 Nov 2005 10:39 PM |
alright. after reading over what everyone else wrote...i think what sounds right wins. and of course, i am the official dicider of right-and-wrong since i brought it up.
the 'correctness' of "an hotel" is good and dandy...but i'm not saying that. it just sounds wierd. seems like that would only apply to things which the 'h' is dropped, as was mentioned, like 'an hour' which sounds just like a vowel (and it is a(n) homonym, too --fun fun).
so i think i just made up that thing about being able to drop adjectives out of a sentence. i mean...that makes since for grammatical usage and punctuation placement, but doesn't seem to apply to a/an usage at all.
lastly, sammy may not be an amazing astronaut some day, and certainly will never be a astronaut of any kind; but he just might take over the world. warn your local third world country, i know his plans.
oh yeah: sammy = lord somethinganother.
sorry that lastly wasn't last. i don't care for capital letters. i give everyone permission to start sentences with 'and', since i know you all were waiting. |
-Gnimini // gnomish wizard facinated with tailoring
-Mirg // young human ranger
-Dredger Hack'nchant // dwarven spellsword
-Hallelujah // gnomish singer and songwriter
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"i just can't wait till this squirrel mating season is over, those bug |
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Re: 'an' usage
Posted: 04 Nov 2005 10:29 PM |
lastly, sammy may not be an amazing astronaut some day, and certainly will never be a astronaut of any kind; but he just might take over the world. warn your local third world country, i know his plans.
oh yeah: sammy = lord somethinganother.
Blast!!! [borrows the dagger from PDW in the "Evil looking clothes" thread] hmm... well if you'll excuss me, I have a Sqeaky wheel to oil. Oh, and don't worry I would never take over the world, now go back to your lives and don't mine that red "oil" slick.. some wheels just don't hold oil as well as others :) |
-Jubei Murasame/ Dwarven Fighter
-Date Masamune/ Half-elf Monk
-Jago Muramasa/ Eleven Rogue
-Musashi Miyamoto/ Human Samurai
"Arrrr..... and more Arrrrrrrrrrr" |
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