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Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 30 Aug 2003 07:50 PM |
After having been killed twice in quick succession trying to A) complete a quest I'd accepted and getting clobbered by a dropped server connection which restored me half-dead into a freshly populated cave full of beetles and B) explore some new regions where I just wasn't quick enough and also got caught between some scenary, I was delighted to find a region where sensible, careful play was going to reap some rewards. I was proceeding cautiously, stopping to rest whenever my health was halfway down (even though this meant reading a book for five minutes RL after about two minutes RL of play), and had gotten within sight of some treasure which I coveted highly. It was, however, guarded by Gnoll Fighters and Shamans to a number that I knew I was not capable of handling. Discretion being the better part of valor, I turned to leave the caverns. To my great dismay (and disgust) the respawn chose that moment to repopulate the caverns and I was killed by a group which was still spawning into the room as I was fighting the first-spawned members. Since I had literally moments earlier passed back and forth through this room assuring that my path to the exit was clear, and since I had not rested since I entered these caverns (choosing instead to use up the one single healing potion which I had acquired in earlier battles), this seems totally irrational and I assure you that it was not any fun. All of the EP that I won getting to that point after my previous two respawns will have been lost again, plus interest, plus I can not use the gnolls again to regain it because killing them will either now or very soon be worth 0 EP (ordinary gnolls were already worth 0 before I was killed, I expect the others will be worth 0 soon).
So where's my incentive? Pretty soon there will be nothing left that I can kill for EP to gain the levels that I need in order to gain the capability to stay alive outside the Midor and the suburbs. Since I can't survive to explore, I can't get any more exploration points. I can't complete the quests because I don't have the levels required to survive them.
I like the idea of diminishing EP for kills, I just think the implementation needs some work. And the respawn definitely needs some intelligence applied to it.
Look, what if the EP for any given kill was related to the relative power/levels/whatever of the killer and the killee? That way when a person dropped back due to death they would not lose the ability to regain position as well as the time and money which are exacted as a penalty.
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 30 Aug 2003 08:09 PM |
Hi Slink
Thanks for the post..... Respawn times is something we should perhaps look into, and increase slightly to try to avoid this situation. It's kind of hard to balance certain encounters within game too for both partys and single players... this again, is something that requires looking into.
Thanks for highlighting the issue and bringing it back to the forefront of my brain though..... we'll let you and everyone know of any imminent changes (but I for one, would like to see longer respawn times).
As the main builder per se...... I am also aware of a lack of newbie friendly areas and this is something I am working upon, adding in more around the Cities to help new folks out.
Cheers! and I hope other than this you are enjoying the "Vives experience"! :D
Arathon
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Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 30 Aug 2003 08:31 PM |
The problem isn't newbie versus anyone else unless somehow the anyone elses are able to kill everything without ever themselves getting killed. The problem is that EP is a straight line function while level is a step function. Although you don't reduce a character's level when you penalize them for death, removing EP while not allowing any way to restore it essentially dooms the character to that level forever. The kill EP-reducing function needs to take into consideration level, including fractional levels which do not actually exist because the character must advance through these in order to reach the next real level. Otherwise at some level every character will reach the place where mine will soon be, where she cannot get any EP for what she can kill and cannot gain the level required to kill what she can gain EP for (or enter the regions or finish the quests). I guess that is realistic, that someone who is unlucky early in life will be a failure at a low level, but I don't think getting frustrated is what most of us play games for.
BTW, the rats in the Midor sewer have cougar portraits. :D
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 30 Aug 2003 08:41 PM |
Hi Slink
I understand what you mean as re: a character possibly reaching a plateau where progressing any further is incredibly difficult..... Aria is the person behind our xp system and all the code, so perhaps she is best to comment on the straight line/step functions.
However, with that said, the xp system was actually designed to do things you are experiencing, where the more one dies the harder it becomes to "level". In general it works extremely well and progression at certain levels is well balanced imho.
With that said though...... I am aware that it can be "easier" for newer lower-lvl chars to reach a "plateau" much much quicker than other mid levels for example. (Ugh.... I think this is confusing even me lol)...... one answer to this is to help lower lvl players out of this by introducing a wider variety of critters to bash, so they do not run out of suitable monsters that suit their level requirements. This I am doing, soon (thx to a new relatively small hak I am working upon as I type this) there will be snakes etc.... to hunt.
It's kinda late here, so I hope you understand my mumblings and train of thought... if not ask away. Hopefully Aria shall also post her opinions too.
Thanks
A rather tired Arathon :D
*edit* I keep forgetting about those sodding Rats grrr.......... *slaps his forehead* Doh! |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 30 Aug 2003 09:07 PM |
I definitely think that there needs to be 'some' way for fighter type characters - and not just fighter types, 'dumb' characters, who won't want to spend time talking and would rather just go and hit something - to gain levels reasonably. Slink has said the major problem with fighters - that the EXP goes down far too quickly. The risks outweight the gain, considerably...
The only fighters I've seen level up reasonably quickly are those that can make the DM quests...this is kinda unfair to those who can't make American times. |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 30 Aug 2003 11:19 PM |
As a temporary measure, I've prolonged the timer on the respawn so characters are less likely to be trapped by respawning monsters.
A longer-term measure would be to switch over to using a more sophisticated spawn system altogether, but that re-education of builders take much time even tho the infrastructure is placed in-game already 
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Regarding Step/Linear function: it is our (mine at least) intention that characters will hit a plateau; the plateau is tuned to about level 12, in which case it offers much freedom for characters to travel, as well as making it continuously challenging without us having to engage in the vicious cycle of continuous arms-race between illogically powerful monsters/characters. Suspension of disbelief tends to have trouble with a server filled with level-20 demi-god/goddesses.
This may contradict many player's wishes and visions, which they can continue to repeat killing same monsters to 'train' and 'level-up' and ultimately reaches level 20 (and possibly epic levels); as a community, at the outset we believe that by each of us giving up this "freedom", it is more beneficial to the role-playing environment as a whole. There are excellent modules out there which allows this 'unimpeded growth' together with fitting gear; I personally know of one called Lands of Lore which provide such entertainment.
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Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 01:28 AM |
Also... My input is, if you are not strong enough to enter an area to finish a quest, or to kill monsters that give decent EP, then try to make a few in game friends. They will help you out, and that is a big part of Vives, is the party, the friendship, and the roleplay. This of course means it is very difficult for people who have anti-social characters, and or people who have no luck at signing on when others are on. However, if your character is anti-social, things probably should seem more difficult, because you are doing everything alone... Anyway, the point is, other people are a big part of how you can continue to survive... and or die... *looks at Sylvan*
I hope you are having fun, and mayhaps I'll see you in game.
-Calmeir |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 10:05 AM |
Well, my fighter finally made level 4 by leveling _and taking the level_ during a battle, which enabled her to live through that battle. When she was killed not too long afterward in another battle (a rather brutal gang-paralyzation-and-bashing, I might add :D) she of course did not lose that level. I suppose this is some form of exploitation of game mechanics. :\ But I don't think it's an example of someone trying to attain godlike status. ;)
This is the sort of thing I was envisioning, in very simple form.
0 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.0, Rat worth 10 EP
100 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.1, Rat worth 9 EP
200 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.2, Rat worth 8 EP
300 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.3, Rat worth 7 EP
400 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.4, Rat worth 6 EP
500 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.5, Rat worth 5 EP
600 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.6, Rat worth 4 EP
700 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.7, Rat worth 3 EP
800 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.8, Rat worth 2 EP
900 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.9, Rat worth 1 EP
1000 EP, Real Level 2, Fractional Level 2.0, Rat worth 0 EP
So if a person dies at 900 EP and drops back to FL 1.8, the rat becomes worth 2 EP again instead of 1 EP. On a grander scale, all of the monsters could be rated to which level they ought to become worthless according to the opinion of the world-builders. Peaceful animals such as deer could start out worthless, even though they are not defenseless.
But perhaps I misunderstand entirely the point of the diminishing monster-kill EP-scale.
I certainly don't see anything wrong with a solitary (as opposed to anti-social) character taking longer to attain higher levels than those who choose to play in groups. Nor do I see anything wrong with some feats simply being impossible for single individuals. I guess I'll just have to wait and see whether there is room in Vives for me to enjoy my play-style. :)
Slightly off the subject, but not completely as it is an alternative path for a character to follow in this world, shouldn't processed materials like corn meal be worth more than corn grains? They have required both the input of multiple gather resources and the exercise of a skill.
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 10:23 AM |
Well.. It is all nice and I was thinking about something like that too...
but then.. the combat xp will never be lost when dying... for example.. a fighter got all his second level (from 2 to 3 - 2k xp) from fighting .. right? then he dies and let say he lost 500..
then he is back couple of levels with the monsters.. which, first means he will just get it back.. and wont actually -lose- something when dying..
second.. this fractional level is based on the xp of the char.. while it is suposed to be based on the times killing specific type of monster.. so it will miss the whole point.. (beside making a penalty which isnt really big cuz you will just keep getting xp and dying and getting xp and dying without losing practicly anything when you die..) anyway if you try to combine both xp reduction per kill and this method what will eventually happen will be a specific fractional lvl per each monster..
which means you will drop by one when dying (for example) but then -all- monsters will give higher xp and you will get much more then you lost..
beside.. the xp is based on lvls.. i dont -really- see anything usefull in splliting each one to 10.. but maybe that's just my point of view..
I think the system is good as it is..
altho maybe raising the combat xp a bit might help.... or as i allready mentioned in the xp thread.. reducing the amount of reduction of 'fighting' classes to 5% or so instead of 10% per kill.. and it will have a range of diffrent reduction amount per class..
anyway i had another idea.. maybe there might be a way that the player will have some kind of 'base' xp% (you know.. that thingy that shows at the start [ how much you get for other type of xp... magics combat etc) of.. i duno how much.. and they will be able to split it?
not something that will be really abusable.. like people putting 200% at abilities using ...
but something that will make fighter able to get 110% or 120% combat xp.. instead of 100% iin exchange with other points.. and it will be like the chars abilities point buying system..
so each char will be made diffrently.. so if you got an adventurer.. you dont really think he will settle down and craft.. so you put 30% of the crafting xp in 15% combat xp or something like that.. so you will get more xp from combat... but if you ever wanna settle down and craft.. that might be a problem..
was just throwing an idea i thougt about..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 10:33 AM |
This is the sort of thing I was envisioning, in very simple form.
0 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.0, Rat worth 10 EP
100 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.1, Rat worth 9 EP
200 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.2, Rat worth 8 EP (et cetera)
But perhaps I misunderstand entirely the point of the diminishing monster-kill EP-scale.
Slightly off the subject, but not completely as it is an alternative path for a character to follow in this world, shouldn't processed materials like corn meal be worth more than corn grains? They have required both the input of multiple gather resources and the exercise of a skill.
The method proposed would not help in plateauing characters. A character that dies at 900 XP and drops back to FL 1.8 would be identical to himself a moment ago when he was FL 1.8 without dying. Death has no teeth.
This brings up another reason for the experience system (perhaps of historical interest to some...). Death was never envisioned to be something taken lightly - no adventurers should be saying, "Sure, I don't risk anything anyway". Several proposals were forwarded, amongst which include Perma-death and significant penalty (25% XP, or drop all items). At the end the current system captures our fancy as being lenient to lower level characters, yet adds a subtle bite to Death - in a way, I'm surely glad to hear that characters are not walking around gung-ho because "they don't lose anything anyway"!
About Cornmeal - there's a separate thread in the Builder's Forum called "Random Scribblings". That's my 'journal' thread that I check when doing little stuffs in the module, so feel free to add your opinion like this there.
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Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 10:56 AM |
Another point about the XP system.
I have had the pleasure of Adventuring with higher level pc's who took me in for some training and to show me the ropes. What ended up happening is I put myself in a bad Position xp wise in 2 ways.
1) Helping finish off monsters for them put me in a place now that the monsters I need to slap around for xp are way out of my league. So i log back on when no high level groups are going on and learn that everytime I adventure with a group of lower to equal level I hardly get any xp now.
2) Patch 1.31 is the Worst thing Bioware ever put out. I have had at least 5 deaths related to Lag (Which I think is do to a memory leak) and logging in slow after a server crash and monsters have me for lunch before I appear on screen (I guess you appear in the area while it's loading on your end. with no monsters to target your a sitting duck till the area loads)...
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You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.
~Robin Williams
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 06:24 PM |
This is the sort of thing I was envisioning, in very simple form.
0 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.0, Rat worth 10 EP
100 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.1, Rat worth 9 EP
200 EP, Real Level 1, Fractional Level 1.2, Rat worth 8 EP (et cetera)
But perhaps I misunderstand entirely the point of the diminishing monster-kill EP-scale.
The method proposed would not help in plateauing characters. A character that dies at 900 XP and drops back to FL 1.8 would be identical to himself a moment ago when he was FL 1.8 without dying. Death has no teeth.
This brings up another reason for the experience system (perhaps of historical interest to some...). Death was never envisioned to be something taken lightly - no adventurers should be saying, "Sure, I don't risk anything anyway". Several proposals were forwarded, amongst which include Perma-death and significant penalty (25% XP, or drop all items). At the end the current system captures our fancy as being lenient to lower level characters, yet adds a subtle bite to Death - in a way, I'm surely glad to hear that characters are not walking around gung-ho because "they don't lose anything anyway"!
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "would not help in plateauing characters". If you mean it would not make the game a dead-end for someone who dies after killing a particular creature the half-dozen times that is required to make them completely worthless for EP in the future, that's right. That was my point. :D It _would_ keep someone from getting to level 20 by killing a billion rats in the Midor sewer, though, and if there were very few monsters who gave any points at level 12 the result would still be the plateau that you desire. :)
In my opinion, one of the advantages of this being a game rather than real life is supposed to be that parts of it can be replayed in a more successful manner after a fatal error. The method you use simply means that a person has eventually to replay from several days ago, using a new character, instead of from several hours ago using the same one. Which is more conducive to role-play: a character who has to occasionally effectively repeat a grade in school on the way up, or a new character starting in kindergarten every time a premature plateau is reached? You see, there are real people on the other end of these characters, and we are the ones who actually learn the ins and outs of your world. ;)
If you think about it, a character that is dead-ended actually has no incentive _not_ to run around gung-ho because there is no longer anything to be gained by not doing so.
As I think about it, your punishment for death only applies to the solitary player who needs to use Respawn, does it not? So it appears that what you are actually interested in punishing is players who don't join a group which includes a member capable of performing some form of resurrection, not the actual act of dying carelessly.
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 07:37 PM |
At this point I would want to restate one of the cornerstone upon which Vives was built upon: Numbers (be it items, or levels) are means to end, not an end in itself. There is much more to role-playing than MMORPG-type 'gaining level' and 'gaining items' - while those are cool to have, we'd hope to see players having fun in having their characters gathering to explore shattered ruins never seen before, a solitary isle, a mind-twisting maze - all the while developing their characters in a 'more-than-pixel' sense: their personality, their background, friendship gained during their travels, settling down...
As builders, we spend alot of time creating ambience and environment that is non-combat/item/balancing related. We did write the descriptive lines OnEnter - and they're not meant to be a backdrop to your character gaining XP. We do have racial language, we do have summon speaks, we do have voice emotes, we have developed unobtrusive listener for all these purposes, we do offer characters chances to settle down and have a 'home' (or a tavern or a bookstore), we do offer characters unique outfits that matches their stories, we do offer characters opportunities to write their own books, or deliver them to friend's mailboxes, we developed placeables and triggers that characters can interact with (even though they 'don't do anything' in a mechanics sense), we developed 'useless' items like portable cushions (or a 'blindness simulator' for players who wish to play a blind character), we developed gadgets for DM... because we believe these matters.
It's the journey itself that counts, not the end - I'd pose a question that refers to the statement
If you think about it, a character that is dead-ended actually has no incentive _not_ to run around gung-ho because there is no longer anything to be gained by not doing so.
What difference does it make, that the dead-end is level 20 instead? Should we employ the Fractional Experience system, and give "very few monsters that give any points at level 12", in my opinion, it would just lead to a bunch of underchallenged and bored players - what additional advantage does it lend to the player's experience?
As for the comment that the punishment for respawn, yes, it is our opinion that role-playing is seldom something one does in solitude, and we try our best in getting players together interacting. Hence you don't outright die when you land underneath 0 HP - it's to give a chance for other characters to apply a healer's kit on you (an incident this mornin' of a lonesome dwarf in kobold's temple springs to mind).
In case you did not realize, one of the non-combat/item related widgets that was modified/developed is a Player Information kit; the red crystal let you choose to provide information on your character, and invite other characters to "bump into" your character.
I hope this gives you a full perspective of what we are trying to achieve here; this is not a good MMORPG because it's designed not to be one. I hope it also provide a broad overview of features and development that would help in fleshing out your experience here in Vives as one that transcends items/levels.
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Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 07:46 PM |
I do so hate Illogical things.. Fix Fix fix! |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 31 Aug 2003 07:54 PM |
I do so hate Illogical things..Fix Fix fix!
Huh? |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 08:45 AM |
Aria,
I do wish you would stop automatically assuming that someone who doesn't wish to be dead-ended at Level 4 wants to be Level 20.
You obviously have failed to understand the EP system I described, not that it matters since it was only my illustration of a possibly better way to achieve what I thought were your goals. The end result is not different than your system. What difference is there between a Level 12 player who cannot get EP for killing Whosits because those stop giving EP at Level 11 and the same player who cannot get EP for killing Whosits because those stop giving EP after five of them are killed at any level? The difference is that the player will have been able to get steadily diminishing credit for them all the way up to Level 12. This actually gives a longer life to each type of monster encounter rather than a shorter one because killing five of them in company with a group of higher level characters won't prevent the lower level character from ever getting any credit again when playing alone, at say Level 10. And presumably, as a monster still appropriate for Level 11 EP, a group of Whosits could still give a Level 12 player a reasonable fight.
As for what difference the numbers make: Yesterday I played in a rather pleasant group battle with orcs who were invading a dwarven hall. As a reward I received a pair of boots that require that my character be level 6. My character cannot wear those boots for two more levels, therefore in order for my character to get any use from the reward she was given she must twice more increment that number which you say should not matter to her (or to me). Likewise I have a ring I obtained as booty from another battle, which requires that my character be level 9. The numbers _do_ matter in the game play because the game is constructed of numbers. Do I walk into the game saying "Today I must achieve Level X or I will be unhappy!"? No; despite your repeated assertions to the contrary, no. But I do hope to eventually advance my character to the point where she can wear the better items and survive the more difficult encounters in the more advanced areas. I don't care if she is slow getting there. I only care that she can get there eventually.
Given the factors above, asking why being dead-ended at 4 is any worse than being dead-ended at 20 is like asking why having your career stop at the level of mailroom clerk with a salary of $15,000 a year is any worse than having your career stop at the level of CEO with a salary of $1,500,000 a year. Lots of people are happy at jobs paying between $50,000 and $150,000 per year, but nobody I know personally would be happy to be a mail clerk all their lives. There is just too much that you cannot have or do at that level.
I really don't know why some people think that role-playing can only be done in the constant immediate company of other players. There's a lot of things in my life that I do alone. I don't switch off and become a nobody when the room is empty of anyone but me, or suddenly start acting "out-of-character". Why would a prospector gather up a party of four to go looking for gems, or a hunter do the same to collect pelts? Some things are better done in company, and some in solitude.
But at least we've got it straight now what you are punishing. :D
My whole point in posting this was to give you my feedback in a constructive fashion. You should, and obviously will, do as you like. It's your world. I'll play there as long as I find it satisfying. If I stop enjoying living in your world, I'll leave. That's about all we can ask of each other. ;)
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 10:08 AM |
hmm...
first thing.. it is not that you -cant- do anything alone.. but I duno about -you- but -I- dont talk to myself usually.. ;P
so you can play the char.. and maybe you like the fighting part.. or treasure hunting part.. of your char.. and can do that alone.. but most people prefer the interaction with other chars.. and find it is much more fun to observe/listen/takepartat events/conversations made from the chars point of view..
sometimes you might just wanna whack things off.. but that doesnt mean others like the same thing..
another thing... lvl 4 is -not- a dead end...
find another char or two and go explore around the world..
I made a fighter once.. unlike most of the people I see.. when someone almost kill me I run away or die and dont come back there untill later.. i mean..
ppl keep complaining about the goblins fire arrows and -keep- going to fight them.. again.. try to find another char that might help you there.. and dont go alone... I got a lvl 5 figher.. that i played for 7 hours.. about 5 of them were going around killing stuff.. and with three deaths because i didnt use potions - which could be prevented.. I dont think it was really hard... at some point when going around alone became a bit harder I went around with other people...
so again .. I dont think this was really hard.. and I really dont think this is a server for people to go around the world alone.. I mean this is a role paly one if you want to run around the world killing stuff around.. there are plenty of other servers under 'action'
I dont know your point of view of this stuff.. just tried to clear up the so called 'dead end' and that going around alone (when you are alone.. alright.. i can understand..) instead of stopping for a second talking to other PCs are not the kinda things vives is for..
Dens
P.S.
If you ask why i didnt continue my lil figher =p
is that i just cant stop playing Tom (my other char) so i just play him when not DMing..
another thing.. when I look at my post it might be read and be some what offensive.. hope it didnt offend anyone... and not pointed at anyone.. just to everyone who read it =P
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You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 10:29 AM |
Whee, I think I've had trouble understanding this whole entire argument.
First up - I 'can' see what Slink is saying. In D&D, and especially in NWN, you do have to level up to keep up with the crowd. Vives does not have a major 'level grind' problem (i.e, you don't have to spend 20-30 hours levelling just to get in on cool quests)...BUT it is a problem on any server, unless you have static levels. The problem is, that all the movers and shakers of the world - those with the power to be the movers and shakers of the world - are quite high level. Aria, you say that Vives plateaus at level 12...there's quite a few plateauing at that level already. And there are older characters of even higher levels. When these people join a party, you know that you're pretty well sorted. And when these people become an enemy...well So, even in an RP intensive server like Vives, we *do* need to level up, to keep pace with the plots and other characters. The fun 'kill orc' campaign from yesterday was good fun, but a 1st level fighter in that would have died. A lot.
I'm very happy to see that the people of Vives have not resorted to the Biowarian standard 'You are a l337 powergamer, the scum of the universe, and you will burn in hell for all eternity' when faced with a low level person wishing to be higher. On good RP servers like Vives, people do not complain of levels because they are powergamers. They complain because they want to be the level so they can keep up with the crowd and survive.
I think the main problem is, with Vives still in beta stage, that levelling can be unfairly biased towards certain classes. Take a long look at those characters who ARE high level/close to plateauing. What are they all? Spellcasters and rogues! Nearly all of them. Experience for fighters needs to be tweaked, so that they have a non-lethal way of levelling. Trade skills might be an option, but trade skills appeal only to certain types of players. Most people who play fighters, I would assume, are those who are not willing to spent 5+ hours a day trying to craft.
Once all classes have equal levelling ability, I'm pretty sure that this issue will sort itself out :)
Regarding my own opinions on item level restrictions - I'm no fan of it. I can understand the creators not wanting level 1 players running around with +5 items...but then, you've banned +5 items anyway. Maybe IR in Vives isn't that necessary. You can check player's inventories and see what they have - if they have items that are illegal, or ones that your average first level would NOT have randomly found...maybe that might be a better solution for items. :)
Lastly...on my old server, for those of us who just enjoyed a fight once in a while - we had an arena. What if, for fighters/barbarians/rangers/monks/other fighty-types - there was , in one of the cities, a place for fighters to train in an arena? With summoned creatures, or even other NPC fighters training up. If they are knocked to Near Death, then they have lost. To avoid huge campings of said arena, the fights could offer experience only up to, say, level 3 or 4.
It's a thought It's a non-lethal way for fighters to do what they do best :)
EDIT: Dens' post has reminded me of the other problem for fighters. Where the heck are the healing kits and potions being sold? I do actually know where they are being sold. I also know what I have to go through to get them. Can't we make lesser healing items a wee bit more accessible for our new players, rather than expecting them to get totally lost wading through forests of ettins and giants, losing EXP to find a simple healing kit? Heck, to figure out that there ARE healing kits/potions sold there, they have to pluck up the courage to talk to a group of older characters. That's not easy, when you are new on a server. You can't expect people to walk up to the average conversation between our characters (which can get VERY heated at times) and ask casually where to buy potions and such. We need to ease them in. Maybe if the clerics of Midor sold basic healing kits and potions, that would be a start. |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 10:52 AM |
I'm going to chuck my 2pence into the pot here.
I think that expirience on Vives is pretty good. I have no real complaints about the levels of players, the leveling rate, the way expirience is accrued, or anything. Perhaps it could be set so that there is more of a bell curve for XP rather than a hill-to-plateu type progression, but that's just me. The way I see a perfect XP curve is that you level at a relatively rapid rate up to level 5 (Around 20 hours of Game Time), then start slowing down up to lvl 10, before esentially starting the lvl every 10 hours sort of advancement which allows players to still advance, albeit slowly. As I said, that's just me.
However, the main problem with slow leveling is that it really does cause problems with the utterly stupid, OOC, ILR system. If you have 60 hours on the server, you may only be about lvl 6 or 7. However, your net worth is likely to be up with what the DM guide says it should be. (Oddly, my last character had almost the exact numbers on "Table 2-24: Starting Equipment for PCs above 1st level". This essentially adds up to meaning that my character has aquired items that he cannot use yet due to an annoying OOC system with no real purpose anyway. If the ILR system is gone, having slow leveling is less of a problem because characters can get wealthy at a good rate, and still find nice loot after hour long dungeon crawls then actually wear it, strut about and act like arrogant morons, or give it to charity after wearing it, or whatever happens to be IC for that PC. However, it is nightmarish to risk death to find an item, only to see "Level required 10". How is that IC? I mean, the armor's too HEAVY? too SHINY? He can't get INSURED on his new suit of chainmail +2?
I know that people counter this argument by saying that you're a powergamer. I don't really mind being called that. If liking to Roleplay character's who advance in personality, expirience of the world, XP and material wealth is powergaming, then I suppose I probably am a Powergamer. Though I consider myself as a roleplayer who can't see any reason why his character can't put on a suit of armor until he gets to a level, (Which, by the way, he doesn't even know exists "Characters have no concept of levels"- Description of the spell, Bind the Soul in one of the Rulebooks. I'll find the page and edit it in later, methinks.) The other argument is about twinking. It's a lot of work for Dms to deal with this, but the rewards are great, when you find a powerful thing and can actually use it.... And anyway, if a PC with a sword he shouldn't have isn't obvious, then..well... Heck, I'd go around once a day and check that no-one had anything overly powered equipped, or had been blatently twinking. How hard is it for a tell "Last night you found your sleeping area in a mess, you had obviously been robbed of a valuable" +4 Sword of Smiting is gone from lvl 2 PC. And if everything can be used by everyone, perhaps powerful items might become theif magnets? Mayby Mr. Lvl 2 might be less anxious to flaunt his Holy Avenger which he may actually want later if a rogue decides that he wants the sword and steals it from said PC? *random musings*.
I think what I'm saying there is that ILR is a system doing a job which needs to be done somehow, but I'd rather not see it done by some spoiling annoying automated system which takes the fun out of finding a powerful item. Yet, at the same note, I really don't see a better system other than direct DM intervention, which while effective and plausible, would require a lot of DM time which is otherwise better spent elsewhere.
Bad system, No better option, basicly. I think. A shame really, I just don't like ILR. I'll shut up now.
-Barnas |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 12:20 PM |
well.. in that 'nice orc thingy' without Tom and his sneak attack you would be kinda dead =p
anyway.. about ILR..
I dont think that DMs should be cops.. that shouldnt be that way.. I dont really see why DMs should go around check inventories for the items you got instead of making DM events.. ir solve bigger problems..
what I think is.. that when there are around 5 - 15 items found each 24 hours with enchantment/magical bonus.. ( i really duno the numbers... ) each lvl 2 - 3 char will have it's +x armor +y sword and +z shield.. and will be able to use it.. IMO it is not right.. cuz then you will see lvl 3 ppl that kill dragons.. and they wont stay really 'low level' if they can do such things..
maybe if it was like a 1 item that was found every 24 hours.. and then it will be really rare.. and very expansive.. then allright.. what the heck? if a char can save enough for it.. she can use it..
but then there will be the people who craft and barely got items.. and the ppl that go around and get tons of them.. and practicly all containers will be 'cleared' within the first 1 - 2 hours after the reset... not to mention people will steal these items everytime they can...
and i dont get the point of this.. letting everyone use what ever he wants.. and then go and pick out things that doesnt seem like his level?
I sorry.. but i dont see what's so good about it...
not to mention that it will really reduce the risking of adventuring.. and players at low lvls will be able to fight the stronger ones.. and i really really dont think a lvl 3 fighter with a +2 sword should beat the more trained lvl 10 fighter that didnt find any magical swords...
Dens
P.S
about that orc thingy.. i am glad everyone got their rewards..
*mumbles something about going to eat and coming back after everyone were gone*
or maybe i got my reward and thougt it was for something else? *look at Ruldain*
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You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 01:05 PM |
I didn't say limiting the aquisition of magical items is a bad idea. I said that a silly in game system which stops you using an item is a bad idea.... My debate is that there should be a limit on the number and power of items rather than the availabiltiy. A lvl 1 should only be able to find a lvl 1 item. Or be able to afford it. Same true for a lvl 10. But that is probably inplausible in a multiplayer game like this.
And my lvl 6 character aquired comparatively few magic items. And every single one was above his oooh so wonderful level limit! Every single magic Item I found I was not able to use. That really doesn't make any sense. That's all I'm saying.
Anyway, as I said, I expect no-one to agree with me on this. Ever. I was just putting my 2pence into the hat.
Also, I do not want to give the impression that I'm complaining. I'm not. Ever. I love Vives, and have really enjoyed my time here. Sorry if it seems like I'm whining.
-Barnas
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 02:10 PM |
<rant>
Some thoughts...
1. Death. The penalty for death is harsh. It's supposed to be. Too many worlds have folks running around as if they have not a care in the world. In Vives, if you die, your ability to level is inhibited. I like it that way, personally.
2. XP drop. Let's be realistic here. XP drops to keep folks from camping spawn points. Also, what more could you realistically expect to learn after dispatching 6 or 10 of a particular beastie? Once you know how to do it, why should you continue to gain experience? Additionally, the system is designed to encourage grouping and RP. In fact, my highest lvl char(12) has received about 50% of his XP from roleplay rewards, not through combat. Solo adventuring is, and IMO should be, discouraged.
This is a roleplay server, not a powerlevelling server. Most of the XP to be gained should be through roleplay means. Personally, getting a 300xp roleplay reward is much more meaningful to me as a player than gaining 2000xp from repeatedly whacking monsters. One thing of note here is that good roleplayers will (and should) generally advance faster than their solo counterparts, unless that solo player is exploiting systems that are in place.
3. Item Level Restrictions. I'm in favor of them. Gives you something to look forward to. In fact, on my first day here, I acquired a lvl 9 required armor, that I carried around for almost 5 weeks before I could wear it. The obvious downside here is that once you give a lvl restrict item, the player immediately begins trying to attain the lvl required to wear it, which encourages a powerlevelling mindset. Good roleplayers simply hold onto the item and wait until they can use it. I also don't want to have to police players who insist on using equipment that is inappropriate for their level.
4. Fighter XP too low. Honestly, fighter is the least challenging class to play, from a technical standpoint. The XP rewards are commensurate with the difficulty of playing the class, I think.
Frankly, I'm rapidly becoming very disappointed in the attitudes I see regarding the time it takes to level. In other worlds, there was a constant "race to lvl 20". Now what I'm seeing here is a constant "race to lvl 12". Lots of folks lately seem to be worried about how long it takes to progress from one level to another or who has more levels/items than they do. I see lots of folks wandering around solo, their sole purpose in life seeming to be packing as much XP into as short a time as possible.
As a DM, my interest lies in interacting with good roleplayers. Those who conduct themselves in such a manner are rewarded accordingly. Those who don't, well, they're unlikely to see any positive interaction from me. Folks who run around killing monsters solo, well, they're likely to get in over their heads fairly quickly.
</rant>
Edit Note: I meant that fighter is the easiest class from the technical perspective. Thanks for calling that oversight to my attention, Chiron. ;) |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 04:28 PM |
I have to admit that the last rant was a good one... but I do have a few comments about it... mainly about point 4 (as I agree to all other points). A fighter class is NOT the easiest class to play! This is simply because I believe that there is no "easiest class". It is possible to put just as much imagination into a character, and just as much work into a figther as it is into any other class and have a character which is equally difficult to play.
I do agree that fighter classes are the easiest to use in battle, but that is simply because that is what they do!
For any other classes, they can quite safely use there other skills in and around the "safe" places in Vivesto gain XP, whereas the fighter classes have no choice but to risk going out and losing 5% of there total XP. In a perfect world, then there would always be a group to join, but this is not always possible... or a DM online to reward your roleplaying when you have finally found a group and get into a discussion or something along those lines, but again, that is not always the case... especially when playing in times which are UK friendly |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 05:16 PM |
*thinks*
I think he ment least challanging from the 'technicaly' and 'ooc' part...
i mean.. if you wanna fight stuff.. you just take an armor.. a shield and a big /masher/basher/shmasher/cleave(ifyouaresug ^^)/axe/blade/shorties/sharpuns/cutters/skinners/deicanripyerheadofandpullyergutsout
(that means a weapon to those of you who didnt understand =p)
and go around whack stuff..
altho many see that you need to increase the fighters' xp.. and i thougt so at the beggining...
we need to reduce the spell casters xp... maybe the problem was allready solved.. tho i dont think so... and i still think putting the % as they are.. but to make each type of xp a bit modified..
(like the points cost thingy) and then people can actually put their chars to what they want.. i mean.. there are people who wont craft... and dont want to craft.. so i guess they can move a bit to exploring or something.. (not something drastic tho.. +- 5-10 points.. per type or something)
anyway i really gtg to bed now.. so see ya all tomorrow
*waves*
Dens
P.S.
Tom: 'If ya see big oxens wif black scalis and gloin eyes.. HOLD YER BREF!'
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You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Illogical Monster Respawns and Too-Rapidly Diminishing EP
Posted: 01 Sep 2003 09:36 PM |
I understand the overall goals (and mathematics) of the XP system and think it's brillant.
I agree with Aria 100% on what she has said about it.
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Punchinello Longfello
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Picasso Picante
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