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Religion & D&D
Posted: 04 Feb 2005 07:35 PM |
Just came across this rather "interesting" article (the original was written many years ago I believe :)
Should a Christian Play Dungeons & Dragons?#6 (33.1MB) </color>
A -really- interesting article though would be something such as "Should a D&D Player be involved in a religion which has this guy as a member?" Pretty dangerous if everyone involved thinks like this guy if you ask me Thankfully........ they don't :P
- Ara
((I'm not religious in any way, shape or form, just thought it was an interesting take)) |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Religion & D&D
Posted: 04 Feb 2005 07:51 PM |
Well, I think I'll throw in my two cents here. Read through the first bit of it, but I really don't have the patience tonight. Let me tell you something that might be slightly ironic: I am a Roman Catholic lay minister. (This sounds a LOT more impressive than it really is, I assure you) Tomorrow, I will go to church in the evening (it is a lot easier to do it this way when my father works on Sundays), and afterwards I will have a solid session of PnP D&D with some friends.
I do not go to church for the simple reason that my parents force me to, as many people do. To be honest with you, I am a very religous person, yet religion is something that must be custom-tailored to each person. Not everyone holds the same set of ethics and values, and I find myself often at odds with the Church. Yet, the general message is good, and I will continue my worships there.
As for D&D and Church going against each other, what people often forget is that it is a role-playing game. You would not be role-playing if you were the same as your character in real life. One must be mature and make distinctions between reality, and fun. It's a very simple thing.
Just my two-cents! |
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Re: Religion & D&D
Posted: 04 Feb 2005 09:12 PM |
| My two cents on this one: "The most personal relationship is the one between an individual and God." That about sums it up in my eyes. |
Signed,
Bhrodi Ferocitas
"From discipline comes all else."
"He who wins the war writes the history."
"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
("If you want peace, prepare for war.") |
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Re: Religion & D&D
Posted: 04 Feb 2005 09:35 PM |
Oh yes a superb and well qualified rant from surely a direct descendant of Tomas de Torquemada. (the article not Tasra)
Oh please Mr William Schnoebelen come knocking at my door with your Quasi Paleolithic, Anti Scemite,Shiite,bullshite. And tell me Quote 'Believe it or not, some spells can even revive the dead,mimicking the power of the Messiah Himself.'.. and I'll probably mimic the power of the Earth Goddess Danu on you .
*has warp spasm on him and later drinks to the demise of his decendents from his upturned skull*
However I am all in favour of refering to Clerics as Yogis from now on
He He He Smarter than the average Roman catholic lay preacher , Boo Boo.
Cardinal Fang....... fetch the comfy chair
Dave of the red branch |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
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Re: Religion &amp; D&amp;D
Posted: 04 Feb 2005 10:03 PM |
"Believe it or not, some spells can even revive the dead,26 mimicking the power of the Messiah Himself. Christians may take small comfort in the fact that divine spells are better than arcane spells for reviving the dead."
I bet Romulus could argue that point.
"A walk through any gaming store can prove that. For example, there is now a whole line of materials based on the hellish H.P. Lovecraft Cthulhu mythos, a form of magic that we practiced in the darkest days of our satanic career - a system of magic prominently featured in THE SATANIC RITUALS by Anton LaVey!28 Contrary to the ramblings of D&D defenders like Michael Stackpole,29 the Necronomicon and the Cthulhu mythos are quite real. We will talk more about Mr. Stackpole later."
He's a complete whacko. While the Necronomicon (or Libris Mortis, or Olaus Wormium, however you feel like calling it today) is real, the Cthulhu Mythos and all that it entails (including a very ample supply of fiction from a variety of writers, not just Howard Phillips Lovecraft) is indeed fiction. It's simply another "spin" on the boogeyman, or whatever it was YOU imagined was in your closet when you were a kid.
"Perhaps D&D has gotten more politically correct over the years. No more naked girls strapped to demonic altars, etc. Perhaps Hitler and rape are no longer praised."
...What the Hell kind of D&D did THIS guy play? Holy crap.
"Many religions extol nobility and self-sacrifice and are monotheistic. Islam comes to mind. But these religions will take you to hell just as fast as any polytheistic (many gods) religion."
The thing that really began to disgust me about religion is that in order to follow one you must declare that your religion is the only one that could possibly be right and therefore everyone else is going to Hell. That's a disgusting concept.
"Defenders of D&D often complain that it is only a game. Playing chicken with cars is "only a game" until someone gets killed. So is Russian roulette! I am frequently told to "get a life" or write about something more important than D&D, like social justice or world hunger. The devil would sure like that."
Wow. Just.. wow. Wow. First time I've heard somebody equate D&D with Russian Roulette. Wow.
"It needs to be emphasized that a spiritual deception which draws people away from Jesus Christ is much more dangerous than automotive chicken or people dying of starvation."
You've got to be kidding me. "Okay guys, let's play chicken with that tanker truck!" is somehow LESS DANGEROUS than "Okay guys, roll saving throws" or STARVING PEOPLE?!?! I guess in the spiritual sense, eternal damnation and all that, but let's really be serious here.
"Down through the ages, no institution has done more to help the poor, the orphans and the starving than has the church of Jesus Christ. I would just ask them where are the rescue missions and orphanages started by D&D gamers?"
http://www.childsplaycharity.org/
And then, ah yes, just as expected, he brings up Dallas Egbert.
I read a very long article on Dallas Egbert because I was really bored and I found the article rather interesting.
If you have a parent, teacher, or priest that truly believes that D&D will make you go crazy and kill yourself, it all goes back to mister Dallas Egbert, whose worse curse was (beyond having that name) NOT playing Dungeons and Dragons and losing his character.
He was a gay socially inept teenager in the 1960s.
Dallas was the model student, he was incredibly intelligent but essentially socially retarded. He had a great deal of trouble at home with a mother that placed essentially impossible requirements on his performance. He was also gay and that was pretty hard to deal with. Whatever the case, Dallas disappeared and spent a few weeks living in the sewer systems of his town, and then proceeded to move town to town staying in "safe houses" with people he felt would protect him or at least give him shelter in return for a variety of sexual favours.
Police investigation was worried that Dallas had been kidnapped. He was in a very tight position. He did not want to release to the media that they though he were kidnapped, because if he had, his kidnappers might get worried and kill him. He also didn't wish to give people false hope, and he didn't want to drive Dallas to killing himself. His only option was to say that he believed that his disappearance may somehow be linked to his hobby of playing dungeons and dragons.
He was staying in a hotel and tried to kill himself. He chemistried up a dose of cyanide and drank it with a bottle of doctor pepper and fell into a deep sleep. He woke up a few days later. He turned himself into the police and then later shot himself in the face.
Dallas Egbert's dungeons and dragons hobby had NOTHING to do AT ALL with the case of his disappearance and inevitable death beyond being something to feed to the media without getting the poor kid into more danger. It became a HUGE controversy and was blown way out of proportion.
By the way, the guy says that these arguments have no footnotes, no proof, no sources where they came from. The police investigator that worked on that case EVERY DAY and gave that excuse to the media wrote a book explaining everything. If that's not a source, I don't know what is. By the way, he doesn't exactly offer up too many sources for HIS arguments either.
There are so many things wrong with this article it makes my blood boil. I could go on for just about everything this guy says. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Religion &amp;amp;amp;amp; D&amp;amp;amp;amp;D
Posted: 04 Feb 2005 11:48 PM |
.
.
I could go on for just about everything this guy says.
You did.
:p
Anyway, the only thing I'd really like to point out is what he has to say about Rangers:
"(Paladins and Rangers) can acquire the ability to cast spells. Keep that in mind."
I've kept it mind, throughout the entire article. And that about sums up the issues he had with Rangers. So, I don't really have any issue with what he says at all. ;)
My advice to everyone is to stop playing their devil-worshipping immoral unethical paganistic and generally really mean creations and start playing Rangers! We're nice people!!
;) |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Religion &amp;amp;amp;amp; D&amp;amp;amp;amp;D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 01:03 AM |
| LOL! |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: Religion &amp; D&amp;D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 03:28 AM |
He's a complete whacko. While the Necronomicon (or Libris Mortis, or Olaus Wormium, however you feel like calling it today) is real, the Cthulhu Mythos and all that it entails (including a very ample supply of fiction from a variety of writers, not just Howard Phillips Lovecraft) is indeed fiction. It's simply another "spin" on the boogeyman, or whatever it was YOU imagined was in your closet when you were a kid.
I'm afraid to say that none of the books that were described by Lovecraft and his fellow authors (for others used the same books and even mythos in their books, only not all in the same way) are, nor ever have been real. This is much like The Da Vinci Code. The books and myths started to have their own life and suddenly people believe they are real.
As to this whole debate, or rather RANT (for it's only a rant) that this guy brings up I've seen far worse. Entire websites and even comics developped to stop the paganism that is D&D. Yes, yes, I really perform rituals when I cast magic and it's all real. I admit it.
I'm in no way religious as I'm agnostic. But that doesn't mean I won't respect someone else's personal beliefs. On the other hand I don't see D&D as a belief like this guy is claiming. Please. The idea alone is ridiculous. I had a good laugh out of it, but that's about it. The sad thing though is that many people belief this to be true. In the past there was a D&D witchhunt and many still think of roleplaying as the ultimate way to doom and annihilation.
Oh well, then so be it. ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 06:12 AM |
I think his rant stems from a deep fear that a lot of religious people seem to have that they are scared that people will be easily be drawn away from their faith.
"Many religions extol nobility and self-sacrifice and are monotheistic. Islam comes to mind. But these religions will take you to hell just as fast as any polytheistic (many gods) religion."
The thing that really began to disgust me about religion is that in order to follow one you must declare that your religion is the only one that could possibly be right and therefore everyone else is going to Hell. That's a disgusting concept. [quote from Rob]
This sums it up for me, the guy is afraid that D&D will tempt everyone away from his faith and that Chritianity will die, so he is showing great faith in his fellow worshippers!
And this sentiment also sounds very familiar *coughs* Midoran *coughs*.
- Sol
(a devout atheist) |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 06:27 AM |
| Burn the Midorans at the stake!! Booooooo ;P |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 06:29 AM |
I like Midorans.
Organized religeon is meh.
-Barnas |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 07:04 AM |
Havent had a chance to read this but I just want to add my a few thoughts of mine.
Religion is certainly not incompatible with D&D
Religion -is- however very -incompatible- with establishments, such as the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England.
The question therefore is whether a Christian should be involved with these. No offence to anyone whose a member. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 07:35 AM |
- Sol (a devout atheist)
oooh me too perhaps we can start a relegion.
Please give £500 or $1200 to join and then get 5 of your friends to.... |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 08:44 AM |
Well, I really hate to say it, but I saw this coming... We're all avid D&D players that would see nothing wrong with this, so... for arguements sake...
SUPERBOWL SUNDAY IS TOMORROW!!! LET THE FOOTBALL, (not soccer) REIGN! FOOTBALL > SOCCER! |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 09:07 AM |
| *tisk* |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 09:23 AM |
Well, I really hate to say it, but I saw this coming... We're all avid D&D players that would see nothing wrong with this, so... for arguements sake...
SUPERBOWL SUNDAY IS TOMORROW!!! LET THE FOOTBALL, (not soccer) REIGN! FOOTBALL > SOCCER!
It's NOT football. See, the word football would mean that you only use your feet, but instead in this silly American sport they also use their hands. We prefer to call it an overpaid hobby. :P |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 09:32 AM |
| come on everyone its not the 'yanks' fault they cant tell the differance between feet and hands look whos running their wonderfull nation |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 09:36 AM |
Hey, this is a GREAT thread! That piece is a throwback from the pre-Columbine era, when Dungeons and Dragons and Ozzy Osbourne were blamed for everything by Christians. America was so innocent then!
Funny story:
I was raised Catholic, and every year our Church (St. Bartholemew's, named for the saint who was flayed alive) would pile anyone they could including grade school children like me onto a charter bus and take us to the annual "March for Life". We'd make a five-hour drive from Pittsburgh to Washington, D.C and protest abortion. I mostly went because my friends and I would play D&D in the back of the bus on the way down! We played anytime we could anyway...
One of the Catholic priests played with us! A cleric, obviously, and he really relished the skull-crushing. Also my Catholic highschool sanctioned a club for D&D players, w/ a faculty supervisor to boot.
Boy, do I get nostalgic about being Catholic. Thanks for posting this! |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 09:41 AM |
| Well, it's a simple issue of one person thinking they speak for the world. The sad thing is, this person probably even BELIEVES the stuff he says... *Shakes head sadly* See, if you just elected me world leader, we wouldn't have this problem. |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 09:47 AM |
What it really burns down to is this.
If D&D leads you to believe that what's happening is real, or it causes you to murder people or commit suicide, then D&D was NOT the problem. You were too screwed up in the first place. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 12:45 PM |
Very true Rob
Part of our world-wide blame culture we have that is alive and kicking
It's wasn't me! I didn't do it! It's someone else's fault! Blame them! |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Religion and D&amp;D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 01:11 PM |
It strikes me that by Chick's definition, Christians shouldn't become actors either - it all boils down to the same thing, taking on another personality. If someone doesn't feel comfortable taking on a role, they're not forced to. Christians are free to roleplay good, kindly people if they so wish, and they are free to play roles that do not require them to "act out" belief in another god, if they so wish.
However, the active words here are "act out". That's all it is. I highly doubt that the folk who play D&D for one moment believe in the D&D setting in which they are playing. I don't imagine it being blasphemous to take on a role in an imaginary setting. I know plenty of Christians (and in fact am one myself) who play NWN and D&D and have done for years, and I see no way in which it conflicts with their beliefs. I don't see it affecting my own beliefs either - it's not as though you stop believing in your religion if you start playing a game which is set in another world. It's like saying that watching a film, playing any computer game, or reading a fiction novel, is blasphemous. You can take that line of thinking a long way, but it does just get pretty silly.
One other thing: that guy is *not* representative of Christianity or Christians in general, I believe. There are a lot of odd folk in the world. :P |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 01:14 PM |
One other thing: that guy is *not* representative of Christianity or Christians in general, I believe. There are a lot of odd folk in the world. :P
D&D is an easy soap box from which he can pontificate. You are right, Yas.
-DB |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Religion and D&D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 01:42 PM |
| I reiterate: If you all just made me the world leader, we wouldn't have this problem. |
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Re: Religion and D&amp;amp;D
Posted: 05 Feb 2005 03:08 PM |
I reiterate: If you all just made me the world leader, we wouldn't have this problem.
Or should that be "wouldn't *just* have this problem" :p
My view on the subject is essentially: Both Lewis and Tolkien are far more experienced and wiser Christians than I will ever be, but they are masters of fantasy. |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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