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Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 08:22 AM |
Hello folks,
Firstly I would like to say that this post is meant to be a friendly feed back post and not directed at anyone DM.
This is just a few feelings i have, whilst i have been playing on vives, i have been playing for around 2 to 3 months now and have a 16th lvl and a alsortment of lower level characters.
I really do enjoy myself playing in vives thinking and knowing there has been alot of hard work put into it.
I have played in quite a few dm events and have had some Dm interaction doing "Normal" stuff.
I will try and make sense starting from the beginning of my thoughts:-
The Exp system is designed to give harsh penalties for dieing, to increase people grouping together and to stop people soloing and hoging areas. So dieing is very bad with the 5% exp loss and 25% gp loss when respawning - being Resurrected isnt so bad but is still a pain.
I have found that i am often killed due to dm interaction, Due to the actions of my role playing, sometimes it has been my own fault which is fair enougth - Like for example trying to run up to a dragon to kill it. But in some circumstances i have been killed trying to make role play oppurtunties other than death. I find this is disheartning and against how i precieve "Real life" the point of the post is to make you as a dm think before you press the DM player kill button and try and think of what the player is trying to do to produce a good role playing moment, at the end of the day we as a "Player" are at your mercy when it comes to what happens to us, but for example please note this has happened to me a few times by diffrent Dm's i have done something which has had an endless amount diffrent out comes but Death seems to be the most common outcome.
I know people die alot, but surely to stop it becoming hack and slay-Die- get ressed or respawn there should be more role play options to do.
Has anyone else had simular thoughts? Please feel free to discuss this more.
Thanks for you time and patience,
Jimmy. |
Tom Benedict (elf cleric), Jimmy Scarlet (human ranger) Drogar Dintfin (Halfling Thief) |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 09:03 AM |
I have seen (and experienced) similar times myself. There have been a few 'ahh - I wanted it to go 'this way' so therefore I'm killing you' moments.
Whilst I can understand the sentiments of 'tell me what you want to do first, then I can react to it appropriately' from a refs point of view, I don't neccessarily agree with it.
In my times of reffing down the caves (LRP) there have often been dungeon breaking situations. The adventure you wrote and the big 'end of level' bad guy, didn't take into account someone that morning booking on to the adventure with spirit only hits etc.
But its just one of those things and you have to roll with it - its high fantasy, and sometimes in stories like those - unexpected things happen.
Just because a creature is huge and all powerfull - doesn't mean its huge and all powerfull.
Well - obviously sometimes it does, but personally I would only say in god terms it does.
If a creature is big and insanely hard, then that should be enough. The only invulnerable things in my oppinion should be the gods. There's no reason why Betty Fish (or whoever) should be invulnerable, and similarly - just because Vestilliax (or whatever) is hard, he should be controlled at that hardness rather than helped further.
I've been killed by a 'creature' whilst GS, even though such a thing should not be possible and the creature wasn't a god. Also, seen people attacking creatures which took no damage 'whilst controlled' whereas when previously encountered they were at least fightable.
For instance: I agree that if you're going to attack Midor head on then you should PM a DM so they can spawn a correct response. I don't agree that if Vidus turned up to take part, that he should be set to invulnerable just because he's Vidus. (This is just a for instance by the way - nothing implied).
Surely, even in high fantasy - no - especially in high fantasy, there's a chance for the stupid/brave/reckless person to rush past the dragon and steal his treasure. Now, if the dragon thought this might happen and laid an actual trap down, or had his treasure not in sight, or similar - then fair enough. But if the dragon hadn't considered/desired that possible scenario, then is it fair to 'rewind time' so it played out how he wanted? Surely the dragon has the advantages of his stats, and takes his chances the same as the rest of us with how fast his reactions are?
I just don't like the 'DM kill button' and its ability to cover a whole host of 'ahhh yes - well you would have died there because of a/b/and c, so this represents that'. Otherwise, isn't it getting a little bit like putting the codes into doom and playing it in god mode?
Meh! Just my twopeneth anyways. |
Jack Sprat - Dashing half-elven 'pirate' rogue
Rasputin Kalarmander - Old human cleric of Elbereth
Coral Shadeleaper - Timid elven wizard
Fenris Wolf - Barbarian elf ranger
Leaf Barksson - Elven druid
Xyfar-noo - Dwarven traveling cleric |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 09:09 AM |
Hm, so far I have only been killed/slaughtered/whatever if I really deserved it...
Sometimes it might be hard, but usually fair.
Can´t comment on that really, I guess you should discuss that with the DMs since only they know what happened with your chars.
Oh, perhaps you should send them a quick tell if you plan something that might get your character killed. ;) |
Portraits: zip.rar
PRAISE HECK, FOR HIS NAME IS HECK, AND JUST HECK! |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 09:09 AM |
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with your post?
Perhaps if you could provide an example or two it would help. If you think they might be too "annoying" then you can always send a PM to all DMs so that they can consider and reply.
DMs try to give RP options or ways out of a situation on most occasions, though sometimes (possibly because of the way the player(s) react(s)) death is inevitable.
Another point to note is that at a DM event when fighting and PC deaths have occurred, we try to keep a tally of the deaths and give an XP reward at the end of the event that will cover the xp lost through resses plus the xp earned for RP. Sometimes it's hard to keep a track of this and know how much to reward in compensation, but we do our best!
Cheers,
Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 10:22 AM |
I have seen (and experienced) similar times myself. There have been a few 'ahh - I wanted it to go 'this way' so therefore I'm killing you' moments.
It might seem that way to you. Quite simply, that isnt true.
Whilst I can understand the sentiments of 'tell me what you want to do first, then I can react to it appropriately' from a refs point of view, I don't neccessarily agree with it.
It is your choice whether you agree with it or not. But that -is- the way it is here. The NWN game is pretty amazing for the rp it offers, but mechanics do sometimes allow the completely unfeasible to occur, and it is our job as DMs to try and prevent that from happening. Within the mechanics where possible, and outside of them where necessary. If players always put rp, and a little common sense first, then DM intervention outside the mechanics is very rarely, if ever, needed.
I know the exact instance you are referring to, or one of them. The scene was this. A huge dragon was hoarding something it deemed very precious. Negotiations were underway to obtain this item from it. All of a sudden a PC decided to run forward and grab that object from right beside the dragon. The PC in question was a dwarf. Wearing heavy armour. And in PnP terms, sod all movement speed. Yet NWN does not take any allowance of this. In PnP or even LRP the reaction would have been instant. And the dwarf would have been toasted. In NWN game mechanics, lag, DM being immersed in rp and typing, etc all play a part to allow a completely unfeasible event to occur. And a DM should just let that happen? Nah, not in Vives.
I would actually argue that such an action shows little rp or thought for the "living breathing" world that is trying to be evoked. But rather a "I can do this within the game mechanics so who cares if it makes sense" point of view. Playing the arcade game, rather than trying to play Vives.
At the same time, certain PCs were being very aggressive, and confrontational to what was obviously a -very- powerful dragon. Despite it being attacked, and blows having absolutely no effect on it, a very small number of PCs continued to be disrespectful, and argumentative. Even to the extent of saying I dont care if you kill me, my god(dess) will save me. Again, knowing that perma death doesnt exist here, and showing no fear of any consequence. Maybe that is the rp of the character. Insane and stupid. Quite frankly -if- I had had any actual DM involvement in what went on...which I didnt, I would have killed those PCs, taken all their possessions and thrown their naked bodies as far away as I possibly could. And believe me, such consequences have occurred in the past, and are quite possible to occur again. Actions have consequences in this world, and crass stupidity will eventually get its reward.
I had zero involvement in this incident. But I have spoken with the DMs who did. And I know there was a slight feeling that a good event was somewhat spoiled by what came across as one or two characters not looking to rp first and foremost.
All that said, there were ways in which this could have been dealt with a little better, keeping IC what happened. And lessons were learnt from that, by myself watching at least. But in the heat of the moment, provoked by the actions of one or two PCs, I think it was handled as well as it could have been.
Just because a creature is huge and all powerfull - doesn't mean its huge and all powerfull. Well - obviously sometimes it does, but personally I would only say in god terms it does.
It is an integral part of Vives that it is not just gods that are so far beyond normal PCs as to be virtually gods in their own rights. This is the -precise- reason I wrote section 5 of the most important thread in the essential info forum. The one thread all players are supposed to have read. But I will quote it here just to be sure:
5) Show respect for the world. At no time will your PC be so powerful that there is no danger that needs worry him/her. There are places in this world that it is -very- dangerous to invoke the anger of those who rule there. Awake Count Valinor in Maldovia, raid the temple of a god and invoke the wrath of its high priest, attract the hostility of one of the ancient dragons...all these things are extremely inadvisable and you should never have the attitude that you can do such and expect to survive the experience because you are so powerful. Likewise do not take advantage of the fact you believe there is no DM present to do something you would not do if there was. Always treat this world the same. None of this is to say any area in Vives is out of bounds...just be aware some hold much greater danger than others, especially for repeated visits.
If a creature is big and insanely hard, then that should be enough. The only invulnerable things in my oppinion should be the gods. There's no reason why Betty Fish (or whoever) should be invulnerable, and similarly - just because Vestilliax (or whatever) is hard, he should be controlled at that hardness rather than helped further.
Again, no. Just because you have been somewhere a 1000 times, or killed a dragon/demon/whatever a load of times does -not- mean you should feel you can always do so with impunity. Some creatures are more powerful than their kindred. And the AI in NWN is so terrible, that if a DM controls a creature, that creature is likely to seem a -lot- more powerful than it ever has before. And yes some creatures will be immune to your attacks. Epic spells for one can make them so. Countless ways exist in which they can be so. It is not just a case of a DM cheating to stop you "winning", but of keeping the realism and fear factor alive in the world.
I've been killed by a 'creature' whilst GS, even though such a thing should not be possible and the creature wasn't a god.
So a lvl 6 spell should make you immune to any and all creatures short of gods!? Nope. Any creature with True Seeing can perceive you. And dispel your protection. Though again the AI is so rubbish it doesnt do that, so only a DM will be able to make that happen. Attacking through a GS? More difficult to do, but not impossible, definitely not. Though actually the mechanics of NWN make it very difficult for even a DM to make that happen, so more likely you experienced a known bug with that spell.
Also, seen people attacking creatures which took no damage 'whilst controlled' whereas when previously encountered they were at least fightable.
Refer to my above comment. So every dragon, every demon should be identical? Whilst we are at it, why not make every PC identical too? Then the world would be really exciting, alive and diverse. Excuse my sarcasm, but quite frankly I feel it is about time some of these points were made strongly. If they upset anyone, I apologise. But once and for all I would like people to actually think about these things.
I don't agree that if Vidus turned up to take part, that he should be set to invulnerable just because he's Vidus.
Actually agree here. But what if he did turn up invulnerable? Is that grounds to immediately whine and complain, and shout DM abuse. Maybe instead, a DM is running a plot whereby Vidus has been involved in a ritual for the last 48 hrs, and has been blessed for a short time directly by Midoran? Again, dont rely on anything being a certain way, expect the unexpected, roll with the story, try to act in a believable and IC manner, and Vives comes alive in a way that can still leave me utterly speechless with wonder.
I just don't like the 'DM kill button' and its ability to cover a whole host of 'ahhh yes - well you would have died there because of a/b/and c, so this represents that'. Otherwise, isn't it getting a little bit like putting the codes into doom and playing it in god mode?
Like I said above, if PCs acted in a more believable and realistic manner, and thought things through a little first, both IC and OOC, then such an occurrence would never have been necessary. Lessons were learnt from this episode, but lessons that would never need to be put into place if a -very- small number of people played Vives a little more like a real world, with real consequences, and a bit less like an arcade game to be "beaten". But next time, yes the dragon will probably speak an incantation, summon the PC back to his side, and then emote killing him with a single swipe of his claws. Then go on to rend apart the other PCs that were being rude and aggressive. And then get down to rp'ing the negotiation with all the other PCs. Keeping everything IC, and everyone happy. But if you genuinely want a world where you will never be confronted by a foe so far beyond your powers then Vives is not the world for you.
A little fed up that some people just dont seem to "get" what Vives is all about.
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 11:58 AM |
*shouting from the cheap seats*
Oh come on! Throw them a bone for cryin out loud!
Then have the dragon come pay them a visit the next time they sleep, steal all their crap and drop them off someplace nice.. like the pits of despair (if they still exist) |
My lamentable plight... I am calamity.
fire... burning....agony...
sultry shivers of a dark essence
why am i tortured with this nihilistic existence?
-Maddox |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 12:06 PM |
Just wanted to make a reply on that from my own player point of view.
I've never, never seen a DM force an RP session to work as he wants it. Sometimes it may seem that way, simply because the DMs take control of extremly powerful characters, and powerful figures tend to use their power to make things go as they want. However, even in these instances there can be more than one option for action, as long as the option is logical in terms of RP, not game mechanics. For example: A group died in the temple of Gukathul, and attemtps to rescue them have angered the god to the point he sends his most powerful minions to stop the invasion, and no one is powerful enough to enter without meeting certain death. This was a real case, but was an invasion the only option? No. While no one thought of it, sending in a Greater Sanctuaried cleric to raise the fallen without attacking the temple was a viable option, and the DM involved did mention it was. No single option will always work in all given cases, and talking to the DM before attempting a course of action can sometimes give you guidance to the legitimacy of that course, and maybe even if it has a chance to work or you're just sending yourself to sure death. Note that I said /maybe/.
The DMs are just humans sitting infront of their PC just like the players are, and they have to confront every single problem the players do: sometimes they also lag, sometimes they cant respond to several occurances at once, sometimes they also get bugged and sometimes they also make mistakes. Taking the Dragon and the Tear Shard instance, I was myself pretty annoyed at the course of action that was taken - attempting to "steal" the shard right under the nose of a powerful dragon, in his own realm, and probably empowered by his goddess. No DM would allow it, as much as no player would allow any similiar occurence. If the DM was forced to use DM-kill, it is because it is only a single DM who had to converse with five other characters, AND respond to the theft attempts of two - typing dialogue/emotes take several seconds, while going in and out with the item takes only 3. It's unfair for any victim, player or DM.
As I said before, there can be several courses of action you can take when your character is facing a problem with a DM involved, and the DMs cant present them all to you. One of the benefits of NWN is that you dont have just choice A) B) C), you also have D) E) F) and so on. Each of these has their own consequences, some of them you might not like, but life isnt always fair - especially when trying to deal with gods or godlike beings. And again, refer to my second point, which says the DMs are limited in what they can do and cant respond to six different players taking different approaches, and some approaches can work in one event and not work in another.
Something I should mention: Dont be quick to hit the respawn button. What the DMs kill, I've learned that they also allow to be brought back (sometimes, maybe even most of the times). The XP taken by ressurection is nothing compared to the XP taken by respawn, and can be easily regained in many forms. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 12:48 PM |
((I'm still not actually trying to be flamey here - just offering a few opinions and points of view))
I know the exact instance you are referring to, or one of them. The scene was this. A huge dragon was hoarding something it deemed very precious. Negotiations were underway to obtain this item from it. All of a sudden a PC decided to run forward and grab that object from right beside the dragon. The PC in question was a dwarf. Wearing heavy armour. And in PnP terms, sod all movement speed. Yet NWN does not take any allowance of this. In PnP or even LRP the reaction would have been instant. And the dwarf would have been toasted. In NWN game mechanics, lag, DM being immersed in rp and typing, etc all play a part to allow a completely unfeasible event to occur. And a DM should just let that happen? Nah, not in Vives.
Surely NWN does take into account such things, hence encumberence. Thus a character with enough strength isn't as encumbered wearing heavy armour as some would be, and drinking a Miggins expresso makes you superhumanly (or dwarfly) fast. So Bilbo never knicked the ring from Smaug's (or whatever it was) hoard?
I would actually argue that such an action shows little rp or thought for the "living breathing" world that is trying to be evoked. But rather a "I can do this within the game mechanics so who cares if it makes sense" point of view. Playing the arcade game, rather than trying to play Vives.
Why so? From the characters point of view the situation wasn't looking all that good, was looking more like a trap, and one of the other characters was counting down as at least one of the others 'tightened his grip on his swords'. I stringently defend the fact that it was a RP action.
At the same time, certain PCs were being very aggressive, and confrontational to what was obviously a -very- powerful dragon. Despite it being attacked, and blows having absolutely no effect on it, a very small number of PCs continued to be disrespectful, and argumentative. Even to the extent of saying I dont care if you kill me, my god(dess) will save me. Again, knowing that perma death doesnt exist here, and showing no fear of any consequence. Maybe that is the rp of the character. Insane and stupid. Quite frankly -if- I had had any actual DM involvement in what went on...which I didnt, I would have killed those PCs, taken all their possessions and thrown their naked bodies as far away as I possibly could. And believe me, such consequences have occurred in the past, and are quite possible to occur again. Actions have consequences in this world, and crass stupidity will eventually get its reward.
What's wrong with aggressive and confrontational? Not all characters are meek and mild. I've had just as many RP events where kneeling on the floor eyes downcast before the samurai daimyo has gotten me killed, as I have when 'going for it' instead. And if we're RPing within the bounds of what the mechanics allow us to do, then RPing the saving intervention of a god is just as good (if not better) than the ever unlikely 'oh I wasn't as hurt as I thought I was so I crawled off and healed' to explain a respawn?
I had zero involvement in this incident. But I have spoken with the DMs who did. And I know there was a slight feeling that a good event was somewhat spoiled by what came across as one or two characters not looking to rp first and foremost.
Again - I can't see how any of it would come accross as not RPing. Surely the RP is in the free will to do anything, the personal choice of how to act as the character.
All that said, there were ways in which this could have been dealt with a little better, keeping IC what happened. And lessons were learnt from that, by myself watching at least. But in the heat of the moment, provoked by the actions of one or two PCs, I think it was handled as well as it could have been.
I thought it was a fantastic event, and wasn't trying to flame it at all - or even whine or winge about that in particular. That was just an example - its not like its something I'm saying is wholescale or constant.
Show respect for the world. At no time will your PC be so powerful that there is no danger that needs worry him/her. There are places in this world that it is -very- dangerous to invoke the anger of those who rule there. Awake Count Valinor in Maldovia, raid the temple of a god and invoke the wrath of its high priest, attract the hostility of one of the ancient dragons...all these things are extremely inadvisable and <i>you should never have the attitude that you can do such and expect to survive the experience because you are so powerful. Likewise do not take advantage of the fact you believe there is no DM present to do something you would not do if there was. Always treat this world the same. None of this is to say any area in Vives is out of bounds...just be aware some hold much greater danger than others, especially for repeated visits.
Indeed. But surely there must be a chance for a heroic band of adventurers to battle against the odds - otherwise surely such all powerfull creatures would actually be 'gods'. One character alone going to beat Valinor upside the head with a mace, indeed would be stupid. A strong party going to treat with him/kill him whatever must surely stand a chance - otherwise why would he even bother speaking with them? Yes, having such big, bold NPCs is an excellent thing - and it really makes a whole lot of difference. But if they're all only there to talk to, then it would make things like the ending of the film Dracula a lot more rubbish.
Again, no. Just because you have been somewhere a 1000 times, or killed a dragon/demon/whatever a load of times does -not- mean you should feel you can always do so with impunity. Some creatures are more powerful than their kindred. And the AI in NWN is so terrible, that if a DM controls a creature, that creature is likely to seem a -lot- more powerful than it ever has before. And yes some creatures will be immune to your attacks. Epic spells for one can make them so. Countless ways exist in which they can be so. It is not just a case of a DM cheating to stop you "winning", but of keeping the realism and fear factor alive in the world.
Ok - agreed. Maybe I was talking out of my @rse there. Don't know anything about epic spells, and I grant you the whole 'ritual' thing. My bad.
So a lvl 6 spell should make you immune to any and all creatures short of gods!? Nope. Any creature with True Seeing can perceive you. And dispel your protection. Though again the AI is so rubbish it doesnt do that, so only a DM will be able to make that happen. Attacking through a GS? More difficult to do, but not impossible, definitely not. Though actually the mechanics of NWN make it very difficult for even a DM to make that happen, so more likely you experienced a known bug with that spell.
Well, again, my bad then. However, from the wording of the spell GS it does seem to imply that it is indeed immunity (bar dispelling obviously) to direct attacks, despite only being 6th.
Actually agree here. But what if he did turn up invulnerable? Is that grounds to immediately whine and complain, and shout DM abuse. Maybe instead, a DM is running a plot whereby Vidus has been involved in a ritual for the last 48 hrs, and has been blessed for a short time directly by Midoran? Again, dont rely on anything being a certain way, expect the unexpected, roll with the story, try to act in a believable and IC manner, and Vives comes alive in a way that can still leave me utterly speechless with wonder.
Yep - ok, fair point. Apart from the whole abuse and whining part - I'm not trying to do any of that, so sorry if it comes accross as such. And where's the whole 'act in a believable and IC manner' thing come from? I think we're seeing different things as being IC, we don't all have the same RP style.
Like I said above, if PCs acted in a more believable and realistic manner, and thought things through a little first, both IC and OOC, then such an occurrence would never have been necessary. Lessons were learnt from this episode, but lessons that would never need to be put into place if a -very- small number of people played Vives a little more like a real world, with real consequences, and a bit less like an arcade game to be "beaten".
Well, no - but then if it was a real world then people would die and get burried. Its a high fantasy world where people have ressurection, people have spell shield, people worship actual gods who really do things and manifest powers. So believable and realistic are relative terms. Thought things through a little first? Not every PC acts that way - some things are spur of the moment.
But next time, yes the dragon will probably speak an incantation, summon the PC back to his side, and then emote killing him with a single swipe of his claws. Then go on to rend apart the other PCs that were being rude and aggressive.
Yes - that would be good
And then get down to rp'ing the negotiation with all the other PCs. Keeping everything IC, and everyone happy.
Why would it then do that? Instead of being enraged and continueing to slaughter them all? Surely that would make more sense and be a more likely, IC action for it? Not all PCs should act the same or respond the same, and I don't see it as bad RP if they do.
But if you genuinely want a world where you will never be confronted by a foe so far beyond your powers then Vives is not the world for you.
Didn't say that did I? Just that such things tend to be consistent at least. If Betty Fish is so far beyond peoples powers (I'm only using her as a name - sorry to whoever made her!) that she's unkillable, then she should be so regardless of whether she's DM controlled or not. Invulnerable switch or whatever.
A little fed up that some people just dont seem to "get" what Vives is all about.
Surely its all about the RP? All the different types of it - not just all conforming to the same?
[edited to show the quotes properly - Sol ] |
Jack Sprat - Dashing half-elven 'pirate' rogue
Rasputin Kalarmander - Old human cleric of Elbereth
Coral Shadeleaper - Timid elven wizard
Fenris Wolf - Barbarian elf ranger
Leaf Barksson - Elven druid
Xyfar-noo - Dwarven traveling cleric |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 12:48 PM |
Yeah, I'm in agreement with what WA and Sirac have said.
When it comes to that particular dragon, I view him as almost on par with Naruth, right or wrong, that is how I feel. If I were to run and grab that tear thing I would do as follows:
*runs up towards the tear and tries to pick it up* Then I'd wait half way there to give the DM a chance to respond, that way you wouldn't have to send a message to the DM first (although they still might want that). I don't play PnP, but I'd imagine if you say, "I'm going to run there pick it up and run all the way out", doesn't nothing happen until the DM could reply, i.e. "Well, as you got near the stone, you were hit with a blast of heat and kill".
I kind of stared in disbelief when that happened. I mean it is great that you want to take initiative like that, but the DM /really/ needs time to respond and from a mechanic's perspective, if someone did run by that dragon and it wasn't DM possessed, (s)he would have got an AoE against him/her without the correct feats/skills.
I don't really think this was a case of "The DM wanted things to happen this way," I think most DMs think, for example "Lets have a man to claims to be a Prophet of Helm come to the PW and see what happens." That is a recent event that I ran which lasted for two months which all started with that one idea and letting the players take it where it needs to go. With a little bit of communication to the DMs, time to respond and freedom to the player (which was there) events will come off very smoothly and be the most fun for everyone, DMs and players. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 12:52 PM |
I've only been playing for...I dont know...3 something months, and I can only think of one time...ok, two times where it seemed like a DM was abusing their ability.
Once: In the Kobold camp with my cleric, all of the sudden 12+ kobolds with flaming crossbow bolts start destroying me. This was a corner of the map where I know for a fact that there isnt a dozen kobolds with flaming bolts. Like Sirac mention, a place isnt going to always be the same, I full heartably agree...it was very interesting...but it nearly killed me, and if it wasnt for my healing spells and personal minions I was throwing at em, I would have died and lossed a good amount of exp...something a cleric has trouble getting in this server.
Twice: Was with a party in the deep snowy regions past Icy Vale. All of the sudden an Ice Wolf (that seemed to have been sent from the gods, lol) and a pack of 6 er so winter wolves come barreling over out of nowhere and lay waste to our entire party of 5. Grant it, we were ressed by a high lvl cleric....Dm character Im guessing since it was a high priestess... but thats just an example. Oh, did I mention that myself and another ran our butts of back to Icy Vale, and it followed us all the way there AFTER we got cleared of it's tracking.
I have nothing against these events, because they make things interesting. Although, like the first example, if a DM messes with you while your alone....thats just wrong in my opinion. |
Characters of Lore:
Melchiah Rhinehart : <DEAD>
Ichbin Rhinehart: <Missing>
Daniel Winborne: Currently Venturing |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 12:59 PM |
I'm just interjecting a smiley or 2 here
:o) :o) :o) :o)
before someone puts a hit out on me to have a goat suck out my eyes and replace them with boiling hot toffee apples.... |
Jack Sprat - Dashing half-elven 'pirate' rogue
Rasputin Kalarmander - Old human cleric of Elbereth
Coral Shadeleaper - Timid elven wizard
Fenris Wolf - Barbarian elf ranger
Leaf Barksson - Elven druid
Xyfar-noo - Dwarven traveling cleric |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 01:08 PM |
Surely NWN does take into account such things, hence encumberence. Thus a character with enough strength isn't as encumbered wearing heavy armour as some would be, and drinking a Miggins expresso makes you superhumanly (or dwarfly) fast. So Bilbo never knicked the ring from Smaug's (or whatever it was) hoard?
Yes, it does, however try to visualize walking in a suit of plate mail. I heard from people who have worn it before and mentioned how hot it is (imagine being where the group was in plate mail) and how hard it is to move in. Just because something is mechanically like that in NWN, doesn't mean that a RP world has to treat it as such.
Why so? From the characters point of view the situation wasn't looking all that good, was looking more like a trap, and one of the other characters was counting down as at least one of the others 'tightened his grip on his swords'. I stringently defend the fact that it was a RP action.
Yeah, that was fine and I would have been fine with any of you PKing my character for what she did. Now it that same respect was given to running up and picking up the tear, then this post probably wouldn't be here :P
What's wrong with aggressive and confrontational? Not all characters are meek and mild. I've had just as many RP events where kneeling on the floor eyes downcast before the samurai daimyo has gotten me killed, as I have when 'going for it' instead. And if we're RPing within the bounds of what the mechanics allow us to do, then RPing the saving intervention of a god is just as good (if not better) than the ever unlikely 'oh I wasn't as hurt as I thought I was so I crawled off and healed' to explain a respawn?
Nothing at all is wrong with being aggressive and confrontational. Some DM are meaner then other ones and take more enjoyment of seeing them dead :P, but they usually always will bring you back to life. Some DMs would have probably killed everyone there (or just used wipeout, which knocks you to the ground and you can't get up) and some might feel bad for killing everyone. Case and point, we had a nice DM who didn't want to kill everyone.
About God interaction, it might be best to consider where you are when you wonder if it is possible. You were in Naruth's Prye: The Core. I know if I died in a place of Helkris, I'd never expect to get raised by Naruth.
Again - I can't see how any of it would come accross as not RPing. Surely the RP is in the free will to do anything, the personal choice of how to act as the character.
There are two types of RP, one is RPing out side of the box, and the other is RPing by mechanics of NWN. Sometimes RPing by mechanics is really not the way to go in a heavy RP world like Vives.
If Betty Fish is so far beyond peoples powers (I'm only using her as a name - sorry to whoever made her!) that she's unkillable, then she should be so regardless of whether she's DM controlled or not. Invulnerable switch or whatever.
Usually in NWN worlds, NPC merchants are tagged as invurnable or immortal to prevent some PG/griefier running about and killing them all and the other players have to wait until a server reset before they can sell anything. Very annoying. I know it might not make RP sense, but in the overall term for fun for everything, this comes a head. If you really want to kill Betty Fish because, I don't know, she sold you rotten fish, then ask a DM and maybe that invurnablity would turn off...then you'd have to deal with the guards...and the Queen...:P |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 01:13 PM |
I've only been playing for...I dont know...3 something months, and I can only think of one time...ok, two times where it seemed like a DM was abusing their ability.
Once: In the Kobold camp with my cleric, all of the sudden 12+ kobolds with flaming crossbow bolts start destroying me. This was a corner of the map where I know for a fact that there isnt a dozen kobolds with flaming bolts. Like Sirac mention, a place isnt going to always be the same, I full heartably agree...it was very interesting...but it nearly killed me, and if it wasnt for my healing spells and personal minions I was throwing at em, I would have died and lossed a good amount of exp...something a cleric has trouble getting in this server.
Twice: Was with a party in the deep snowy regions past Icy Vale. All of the sudden an Ice Wolf (that seemed to have been sent from the gods, lol) and a pack of 6 er so winter wolves come barreling over out of nowhere and lay waste to our entire party of 5. Grant it, we were ressed by a high lvl cleric....Dm character Im guessing since it was a high priestess... but thats just an example. Oh, did I mention that myself and another ran our butts of back to Icy Vale, and it followed us all the way there AFTER we got cleared of it's tracking.
I have nothing against these events, because they make things interesting. Although, like the first example, if a DM messes with you while your alone....thats just wrong in my opinion.
Always expect the unexpected.
If you invade a kobold camp, dont neglet the possibility that the kobolds know of the attack and will try a well-prepared ambush. Kobolds are sneaky creatures.
If you invade the temple of a god, take into consideration that at some point the god can defend his temple by sending more minions against you. Sometimes these minions will be well beyond your ability to defeat. Gods dont like having their temples invaded.
If you invade Maldovia, there can always be a situation where a room with 2 vampires will now have 6, while another room with 4 now has none - as in the DM moves the vampires from one room to another, while in an RP sense they know of your attack and mass against you in greater numbers.
These are only a few examples, but always take these things under consideration. Never assume a DM is not on so these things cant happen - act as if a DM is always on and these things can always happen - sometimes they will and sometimes they dont.
However, DMs are not senseless. Sure they want to kill players in any way possible, and they will admit it :P, but they usually also give a player some warning or the possibility to be warned.
Sometimes, when invading the temple of a god and the god reacts, you will be forewarned by certain effects that are meant to tell you that something is obviously wrong. Most common is the shaking ground, which is a big sign for: "Run for your life!" :P
If the vampires prepare against you in a single room in Maldovia, use your skills to your advantage. Sometimes you can emote something, such as *puts his ear to the door and listens for sounds*, and the DM could respond by *you can hear a large number of vampires behind the door and spells being cast*. It can save your life, and it enhances the overall roleplay experience of the occurence. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 01:13 PM |
Once: In the Kobold camp with my cleric, all of the sudden 12+ kobolds with flaming crossbow bolts start destroying me. This was a corner of the map where I know for a fact that there isnt a dozen kobolds with flaming bolts. Like Sirac mention, a place isnt going to always be the same, I full heartably agree...it was very interesting...but it nearly killed me, and if it wasnt for my healing spells and personal minions I was throwing at em, I would have died and lossed a good amount of exp...something a cleric has trouble getting in this server.
Maybe if you would have died, the Kobolds would have taken you back to their camp and started to cook you for supper, then you'd awake just before the fire started and beat down on the Kobolds Sometimes it is more fun when you die ;)
Twice: Was with a party in the deep snowy regions past Icy Vale. All of the sudden an Ice Wolf (that seemed to have been sent from the gods, lol) and a pack of 6 er so winter wolves come barreling over out of nowhere and lay waste to our entire party of 5. Grant it, we were ressed by a high lvl cleric....Dm character Im guessing since it was a high priestess... but thats just an example. Oh, did I mention that myself and another ran our butts of back to Icy Vale, and it followed us all the way there AFTER we got cleared of it's tracking.
Yep, that was nasty, and from what I've been told about it, there was warning given that something like this could happen. Maybe cold traps along the way, maybe different slightly more powerful monsters, or something else, but in the end the DM came on and raised you with a cleric and gave you a scholding Like I said above, sometimes dieing is interesting ;) |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 01:19 PM |
I've only been playing for...I dont know...3 something months, and I can only think of one time...ok, two times where it seemed like a DM was abusing their ability.
Once: In the Kobold camp with my cleric, all of the sudden 12+ kobolds with flaming crossbow bolts start destroying me. This was a corner of the map where I know for a fact that there isnt a dozen kobolds with flaming bolts. Like Sirac mention, a place isnt going to always be the same, I full heartably agree...it was very interesting...but it nearly killed me, and if it wasnt for my healing spells and personal minions I was throwing at em, I would have died and lossed a good amount of exp...something a cleric has trouble getting in this server.
I have nothing against these events, because they make things interesting. Although, like the first example, if a DM messes with you while your alone....thats just wrong in my opinion.
Exactly, they make it interesting. It spices up the world, gotta love the last second escapes.
It doesn´t matter if you´re alone, or in a group. You did not die, so why not let it happen. And even if you died and the DM realized he threw some kobolds too many at you, he´d most probably have done something about it.
Just as an example, I got killed when Vestlat devastated the four winds inn. I deserved it. And still paul gave me the chance to be resurrected by a cleric who came along.
As I said above, it might be hard, but fair. |
Portraits: zip.rar
PRAISE HECK, FOR HIS NAME IS HECK, AND JUST HECK! |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 01:36 PM |
I've been killed by a 'creature' whilst GS, even though such a thing should not be possible and the creature wasn't a god. Also, seen people attacking creatures which took no damage 'whilst controlled' whereas when previously encountered they were at least fightable.
Two points there before I respond to the others
1/ There is a known bug with greater sanctuary where it becomes sanctuary instead. It will supposedly be fixed in the next update
2/ there are creatures that can perceive you and attack you through GS. Be wary of creatures with TS and area effect weapons. You are not invunerable.
Regarding the particular incident I believe is being referred too, I saw it from this perspective: My character was fully prepared to hack this dragon up, but two things prevented him. One of those things was the fact that creature showed up as "impossible" to him. IC, he can perceive a creature as being very powerful and hopefully seek another option out as travelling through a dragons gut is not his idea of fun. While it might not be another IC response, you have to perpared to accept the consequences.
The second "thing" that happened was that after the dragon was willing to deal for something of greater value to him (gold) one of the players waved the sum of a LARGE amount of gold under the dragons nose and then DEMANDED that a certain offer be taken or left.
One does not do this in a dragons own home when one is considerably under such a dragons power.
But fair enough, not everyone will think this way IC. And the character payed the ultimate price for it.
What happened next though, surprised me. The character respawned to get out of the situation. This to me is not what the respawn button is for. Think about it. What possible explanation is there for a body disappearing when it was there in the middle of the confrontation? It wasnt as if there was a ledge the character could have thrown themselves off of, or as if the divine hand of their god came down to sweep them away. It felt like to me, that the character used it as a way to get out of not having to cough up gold that the dragon became aware of from the players own words (had it not been brought up, I bet the dragon would not have noticed given the copious sums that were already being presented).
If it was forced, it was forced on the DM to try to deal with this situation that makes sense and still lets the characters escape. I believe the character got off easy.
I could be wrong, perhaps the respawn an accident? I know that has happened in the past from a missclick.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 01:53 PM |
Just as an example, I got killed when Vestlat devastated the four winds inn. I deserved it. And still paul gave me the chance to be resurrected by a cleric who came along.
As I said above, it might be hard, but fair.
Just a quick aside on that.
Vestlat found you looting his home and wished to have a word with her, perhaps extract some vengence. Only Shihaya'zad ran like the wind as soon as she saw him. He then had to chase her from Lynaeum to the four winds which left him in a pretty foul mood.
Had she not run, she might have discovered a different ending. As it was, she didnt run far enough.
Just because a creature is hostile, it doesnt mean that things will end in a violent confrontation.
On the other hand, if you saw vestlat coming, wouldnt you run? (happened to one of my characters once and he didnt stop until he reached midor)
Beware of the dangerous places. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 01:55 PM |
To make clear, all my points are made in response to Jack Sprat's post, and not Jimmy's who started this thread off.
I think enough people, mainly players and people who were there for the event, have commented now that I will bow out of further discussion. Cheers to all who have made some great points.
All I will conclude by saying to Jack Sprat is that you can choose to try and take on board some of what is being said. Or remain convinced that what happened was perfectly IC, was realistic RP, and is how you will choose to RP next time something like this happens.
Xerah's comment nicely sums up this entire situation to me. There are two types of RP, one is RPing out side of the box, and the other is RPing by mechanics of NWN. Sometimes RPing by mechanics is really not the way to go in a heavy RP world like Vives.
Just dont expect allowances to be made, and a DM to struggle to find a way to keep an insanely suicidal character alive time and again. Yes a wide variance of RP is encouraged, but so is a knowledge that a characters choices and actions have consequences.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 02:04 PM |
The DMs are just humans sitting infront of their PC just like the players are, and they have to confront every single problem the players do: sometimes they also lag, sometimes they cant respond to several occurances at once, sometimes they also get bugged and sometimes they also make mistakes. Taking the Dragon and the Tear Shard instance, I was myself pretty annoyed at the course of action that was taken - attempting to "steal" the shard right under the nose of a powerful dragon, in his own realm, and probably empowered by his goddess. No DM would allow it, as much as no player would allow any similiar occurence. If the DM was forced to use DM-kill, it is because it is only a single DM who had to converse with five other characters, AND respond to the theft attempts of two - typing dialogue/emotes take several seconds, while going in and out with the item takes only 3. It's unfair for any victim, player or DM.
I picked this one out as it summarised the position well, thanks WA.
I was controlling the dragon and was also suffering from dreadful lag. Things that I typed were taking several seconds to appear on my screen. Also because I was possessing the dragon, I was limited as to what I could do as a DM without running all over the screen with the dragon. So when Brodie ran up and snatched the tear, my response was delayed by lag and OOC shock that he done what he's done. He didnt even RP react the to fire trap that did over 100 damage to him, just ran in grabbed the Tear and ran off again. Another point to note is that as a DM you cannot move players when they are dead. So I'd used the DM kill button on Brodie as fast as I could (not very) and then had to res him to jump him to the dragons feet. when I did res him he tried to run off! So the whole thing looked very messy to everyone involved as I was trying to send him tells to stay still and sort out the mess and stay IC as the dragon!!
Like Xerah says too, players need to give us DMs time to react by warning what they are doing. As a DM you are often controlling at least one creature and trying to listen to & react to what several players are all doing too. It's not easy!
Another thought and not so serious, but worth mentioning in a jokey way .... players sometimes complain about forced RP ..... well us DMs suffer from it sometimes too as a result of player actions!!! There is no perma-death here as a rule (though we may have make exceptions if pushed too far in a situation) and sometimes we find ourselves limited in the RP options we can offer to players, if they are being deliberately IC rude to very powerful NPCs/CPCs/DM controlled powerful monsters. Just think about it .... that's all we ask.
Solitaire |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 02:16 PM |
I don't have anything to really contribute to this debate, except to comment on example "Two" given regarding Icy Vale...
The PCs had been being warned for about 15-20 minutes that something was awry before the Ice Wolf ended up taking the party out. Progressively increasing problems. Yes, as we all know, it can be hard to run away as a player. But, when traps keep appearing and being progressively harder, when there are Yetis seeming to be impossible to hit, when there are earthquakes, bizzare snakes, hoardes of lesser creatures... well, you don't get much more warning than that. ;)
So Bilbo never knicked the ring from Smaug's (or whatever it was) hoard?
He found it on the floor in goblin tunnels, it had fallen out of Gollum's pocketss.
-Barnas |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 02:23 PM |
I don't have anything to really contribute to this debate, except to comment on example "Two" given regarding Icy Vale...
The PCs had been being warned for about 15-20 minutes that something was awry before the Ice Wolf ended up taking the party out. Progressively increasing problems. Yes, as we all know, it can be hard to run away as a player. But, when traps keep appearing and being progressively harder, when there are Yetis seeming to be impossible to hit, when there are earthquakes, bizzare snakes, hoardes of lesser creatures... well, you don't get much more warning than that. ;)
So Bilbo never knicked the ring from Smaug's (or whatever it was) hoard?
He found it on the floor in goblin tunnels, it had fallen out of Gollum's pocketss.
-Barnas
He did lift some stuff from Smaug, he allready had the ring of pwnage though. |
My lamentable plight... I am calamity.
fire... burning....agony...
sultry shivers of a dark essence
why am i tortured with this nihilistic existence?
-Maddox |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 02:25 PM |
If memory serves, he lifted the Arkenstone of Thrain from Smaug... the huge gem thang.
-Barnas |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 02:27 PM |
I don't have anything to really contribute to this debate, except to comment on example "Two" given regarding Icy Vale...
The PCs had been being warned for about 15-20 minutes that something was awry before the Ice Wolf ended up taking the party out. Progressively increasing problems. Yes, as we all know, it can be hard to run away as a player. But, when traps keep appearing and being progressively harder, when there are Yetis seeming to be impossible to hit, when there are earthquakes, bizzare snakes, hoardes of lesser creatures... well, you don't get much more warning than that. ;)
So Bilbo never knicked the ring from Smaug's (or whatever it was) hoard?
He found it on the floor in goblin tunnels, it had fallen out of Gollum's pocketss.
-Barnas
He did lift some stuff from Smaug, he allready had the ring of pwnage though.
And he was a hobbit, not a plate mail clad dwarf whose stumpy legs were charging at break neck speed to grab the loot from directly beneath the dragons nose!
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 03:44 PM |
And he was a hobbit, not a plate mail clad dwarf whose stumpy legs were charging at break neck speed to grab the loot from directly beneath the dragons nose!
As opposed to Bilbo who did it when the dragon was off elsewhere.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Dm interaction with Players, Feed back etc
Posted: 09 May 2005 04:13 PM |
This thread prompts me to write with a question. Since there is such frank discussion of DMs resurrecting PCs, I thought I could get some opinions on etiquette. I’ve been dragged from dungeons to be revived by healers rather than respawning, but I don’t really understand how such things happen or how they are orchestrated. I only tried to do this once for another PC and I failed, in part I think because I didn’t know how to get it started. I was not about to /tell a DM that I was dragging so-and-so to a healer to be raised, as that seems cheeky to me, especially since I’d be telling it to no DM in particular, but rather making a blanket appeal to any DM who would be listening…Raise this person would you?
But maybe I should have?
Some considerations…
1) I’m pretty sure a DM killed the PC I was carrying around IC, w/ a nasty trap in a place that’s usually not trapped. Fair enough.
2) The PC I was trying to raise was negotiating w/ another player via /tells to get themselves raised by a PC cleric. I don’t know if DMs can see tells…that made my effort redundant.
I’m quickly answering my own questions… but the long and short of it is, how does one know when to take care of a fallen adventurer and carry them out, and when that’s going to be a waste of a couple of hours speaking into the air. Further, how should all this be communicated?
Part of my conflict over this issue is that I see “free raises” as a gift, and as such they are categorically NOT to be taken for granted or even asked for.
Opinions?
Feel free to just leave it alone—if its best kept unsaid, I can accept that too. I trust the DMs after all—that is what’s required in any RPG. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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