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NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 05:28 AM |
I've been thinking over this for a while and at the very least, to me it makes a lot of sense.
Now more than ever do we have more and more crafting PCs. Myself, Daimon, Edrik, Arcane, Eleanor, Tolith, Lianneth, Dias, Luther, Macha, Shalee, Thomas, Scoopers, and Johe, to name a few off the top of my head.
More PCs are getting their own custom shops. Myself, Daimon, Cantor, Johe, Jessup.
More and more craftable things are becoming available from Craftsman on a somewhat regular basis. This is great, people have something to do and they're enjoying it.
The problem is that nobody needs their services.
Tailors only sell bags. The best weapons that can be made are IRON. Most jewelry sucks. Alchemists could probably sell a couple of things, but the ingredients make most of the good ones nearly impossible to make. Food crafting is completely useless. There's no call for Carpenters whatsoever. Everything you can make with tinkering is either effortless at level 3, sold somewhere else, or useless. Even making traps is overcomplicated because of the "Craft Traps" skill.
And why is this?
Because NPC merchants sell the same items, more of them, or better items than PCs could ever make. Ever.
Even Daimon isn't capable of making a +3 Keen 1d4 Blunt greatsword. Yet they're sold near Buckshire. Potions of all kinds are available all over the world. Medical Kits are available the world over. Even things like TOOLS never have to be made by the tinkerer because they're available in massive quantities. Food is available within four transitions of any area for 1 gp apiece. Why do we even have it?
When this server was created, it was thought that Crafters would eventually take over all the positions of NPCs. There would HAVE to be a cook so everyone would have something to eat. There would HAVE to be weaponsmiths and armoursmiths so everyone would have something to hit bad guys with. Early on shops were far and few between and decent items even more rare. We went in the opposite direction, adding merchants everywhere selling absolutely everything and began relying on NPCs instead of each other.
In my opinion, now is a better time than ever to start slowly phasing out NPC merchants and weening off our dependancy on them. In addition, I have a few propositions that might help stimulate some activity for crafters (and in fact increase the number of crafters).
1 - All current weapon and armour shops should only sell base weaponry. Exotic locations like Ferein should sell higher value weaponry but they should be limited to CNR items with a few exceptions. After all, unless there's secrets involved they shouldn't be able to make anything a grandmaster craftsman couldn't make. They should also charge extortionate amounts for special blades.
2 - All current treasure-table items that mimic CNR items (Adamantium Armour, Mithril Armour, etc.) should be removed and replaced with CNR items. Additionally, CNR items should be added into the treasure tables.
3 - Higher-level crafting recipes should become much more powerful to compete with treasure-found items. Once again, these items were made by somebody, there's no reason somebody else shouldn't be able to make them. To balance this, certain materials like Adamantium should be made rarer and crafting progression should become more difficult.
4 - Certain materials, Diamond, Emerald, Ruby, Platinum, Titanium, and Mithril to name a few, should actually be put into the dang game and lower level items, such as copper or aloe, should become slightly more common. There's like 15 mines or mine-like areas in Vives that don't actually have anything to mine, and that's pretty silly.
5 - To encourage players to take up crafts that fall in line with their character as opposed to their race, the maximum crafting level for all races in all crafts should be raised to 20. However, racial affinities should still be considered and perhaps effect experience progression.
- As an alternative to phasing out NPC merchants entirely, perhaps their inventories could be completely wiped. They could remain persistant, but set to only buy/sell very specific things. This way crafters making tools could sell their wares to shops that would then sell them to the consumer. Sort of like wholesaling.
I would be absolutely more than willing to help in any way I can to help realise this concept, but for now I'd like to hear what other people think. In other games, NPCs only sell crap for extoritionate prices and it forces people to take up crafts (Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft spring instantly to mind). I think if we make a gradual progression into interdependence instead of NPC dependence it will really be a cool thing. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 05:38 AM |
You've brought up some valid points. A played driven economy would be nice, but it would have to be well implemented or else the world could actually be without items. Then that would mean that the crafters would have to supply everyone else in the world or there could be a shortage of a lot of materials.
I like the crafting a lot and I know on other servers that don't even use CNR, that the use of crafters can really increase the roleplay potential.
But just one remark:
4 - Certain materials, Diamond, Emerald, Ruby, Platinum, Titanium, and Mithril to name a few, should actually be put into the dang game and lower level items, such as copper or aloe, should become slightly more common. There's like 15 mines or mine-like areas in Vives that don't actually have anything to mine, and that's pretty silly.
Most of those materials are already in game. But you're right about the mines. It's silly to be in a mine where you can't even find a rock so to speak. :P |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 05:40 AM |
Most of those materials are already in game.But you're right about the mines. It's silly to be in a mine where you can't even find a rock so to speak. :P
I know some of them are, but I'll be DAMNED if I know where to find a vein (that's a lie, I know where to find half of them). But as far as the empty mines go, the lack of any veins certainly explains why they're empty. The miners gave up and moved out too. ;)
I've seen on some servers (I travel around a bit and see what other people offer) that shops (or at least the easy to reach shops) will only sell really crappy equipment. Like -1 everything. That way the world isn't completely without items, but if they have any interest in getting DECENT items, they HAVE to find a crafter. Tools may be difficult to restrict to PCs (can't make a pickaxe without a pickaxe to mine with, for instance) but a lot of things we've been taking for granted, weapons, armour, potions, medical kits, and containers to name a few could easily be removed or downgraded without leaving the PCs completely devoid of gear.
Alternatively I imagine that starting equipment could be slightly improved to balance the rarity of certain items. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 05:42 AM |
Purely my personal playing views, not my views as a DM or Admin, and definitely not the views of the Vives team. But I would be 100% against this. Why, because it makes crafting too important.
Yes, I do think something should be done so that crafters get more reward for time spent devoted to their crafts. The things they can make are not good enough.
But to make the whole Vives economy based on CNR. Absolutely not. I hate crafting. Loathe it. It would bore me silly to do. Some people love it. And that is great.
But crafting should be something for people that can devote that kind of time to Vives. And should not give a really big advantage. This is a high fantasy world, crafting should be a sideline, not a primary focus for the vast majority of characters.
I like the persistent merchants. I just wish they were not all getting filled up, and all their gold drained, by crafters. Now that some really good items are available from vendors, and crafters can make significant amounts of money, crafters do already have an IG advantage, in that they can get substantial amounts of gold quite easily. Just look how many crafted items are around IG on vendors.
So yes, agreed, crafting needs to be improved. And pdw and Ara are consistently working on doing so. But making it as important as you suggest I would be utterly against. Crafting is there for those that enjoy it, but should never be an essential part of the world in my opinion. Which if you removed vendors would become the case.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 05:52 AM |
I hate crafting. Loathe it. It would bore me silly to do. Some people love it. And that is great.
You shouldn't have to do it. Enough should be left so that a character could survive for the most part on his own and nobody should be FORCED to craft. But in argument, I think that NPCs should be just as limited as the players, if not moreso. I'm sure Rador Ruddlefoot doesn't get in a weekly shipping of Adamantium, for instance. Weapons shops are using a very curious material since they seem to be capable of making a plain +0 weapon with no benefits or drawbacks (as opposed to copper or iron) when PCs cannot.
I don't think characters should necessarily be FORCED to craft. I just think they should if anybody wants to buy anything really good.
This is completely ignoring of course treasure items, which most people rely on anyway. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 06:01 AM |
I don't think characters should necessarily be FORCED to craft. I just think they should if anybody wants to buy anything really good.
And that is where I disagree. No way should it be the sole province of crafters to supply / make good items. Improve what they can make, sure.
But a lot of the really good items come from the time of Aristi. Or were forged in Minyaren, or Fiirhallen, etc. Or were made by people whose life was devoted to crafting to the exclusion of all else. And by people who had access to lore not currently known.
Not by 20th lvl archmages / swordmasters who -also- craft! :0)
Quests have been run in the past for the most accomplished of crafters to make something really special. There are already rewards for being a master craftsman. But the level you are suggesting taking it to...whilst something you would enjoy, is not something I think all players would enjoy, or something that would be good for Vives.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 06:05 AM |
But a lot of the really good items come from the time of Aristi. Or were forged in Minyaren, or Fiirhallen, etc. By people whose life was devoted to crafting to the exclusion of all else. And by people who had access to lore not currently known.
Exactly. But these were items forged 1,000 years ago, and that's my point. They should remain in the treasure tables and the very best items should only be able to be found in the bottom of dangerous dungeons or DM granted.
The people that are putting in the time and the effort to hone their craft into perfection and sell multiple copies of the finest items in our timeline are the PCs NOW and they should be able to at the very least compete with NPC vendors if they're willing to put in that time.
As a complete side-thought, I think enchantment should be much more difficult to progress in but should also provide for the most useful or powerful or versatile items.
Another side-thought, I think that racial areas should determine available items based on their crafting affinities. The finest NPC weapons and armour should be for sale in the Halls of Bregodim, for instance. They shouldn't be beaten by an elf and a roving band of nomad barbarians. The finest alchemy, tinkering, and jewelry should be available in Brandibuck (granted the finest jewelry, potions and tinkering ARE available pretty much exclusively by gnomes, but you know what I mean). The finest leather armours should be available in Ferein. To a certain extent this is the way it is, but certain areas are a little "fuller" than I think is fair. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 06:13 AM |
Why do you presume that the best items of the current time are made by PCs? I would think that unlikely. PCs are too busy fighting the good/evil fight to be the most accomplished of all craftsman.
Do you really think Balthor, Daimon, Luther, Xaranthir and co are the most accomplished craftsman of the age, as well as being the most powerful heroes in their field?
Personally I think it far more likely that the true master craftsmen are the elves that never leave ferein, and have spent a lifetime mastering their craft. Or the dwarves of Bregodim, the fire giant weapon smiths of Fiirhallen, etc, etc. And it is with these groups that the NPC vendors would acquire their goods from.
Though even so, the best of their goods still come from PC adventurers, that sell what they find to vendors.
My main point remains, while I agree in part with you, I think the emphasis you are looking to place on crafting is heavily weighted by your own interest in it. And doesnt allow for the fact that a lot of the playerbase do not share that interest.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 06:25 AM |
As one who has spent a significant amount of time crafting (Rob you missed Elvalia off the list - shame on you) I agree wholeheartedly with the fact that what she can make in comparison to what's available is by and large a waste of time.
1. Elvalia can make anything currently on the CNR menu for woodcrafting, most items are trivial, even unbuffed I think all but a couple of items are trivial.
2. Though capable of making any bow on the menu easily she doesn't unless asked - why? Quite simply because the amount of time involved in, say making a mahogany/gold/oak compound longbow is time wasted - there is no store IG that will give her a decent price, conversely to make a small mahogany shield - trivial - takes about 30 seconds and pays up to three k, depending on the merchant's reaction (more than the highest price she can get for a bow which is far more complicated and time consuming to make). Nowadays, she does not even make bows on request since any PC can either complete a very simple quest and get one almost equivalent to the best she can make at no risk, or walk into the Silver Quiver and buy one far better.
3. No, I wouldn't want a crafting/player driven economy. Elvalia makes bows (or at least that was the idea) because it is IC for her to do so, and yes she does/has spent a huge amount of time doing it (largely because until recently the time I had available meant that I could afford to devote a huge amount of time to playing and there were occasions when she would be the only player - or one of very few IG - and I would sooner have her do something like crafting, which is IC, than running around killing stuff, which isn't.
4. I enjoy crafting, many people don't and I would hate to think anyone would feel forced to do it - PD has a point, if items on sale are purely crafted they will soon disappear if there is nobody around to make them - I for one, much as I enjoy it, do not want to spend 100% of my time running round making bows to keep every store IG stocked. This then creates the problem of survival - without somebody making these items - and to my knowledge Elvalia is the only PC capable of making the higher level items - where are people going to obtain things to keep them alive?
On balance I'd have to say I'd agree with Sirac, by all means make crafting more rewarding for those who do invest time in it - I for one would like to see a master bowcrafter able to make bows that are better than commonly available, the things that can be made -aren't- good enough, especially for higher level crafters.
While I enjoy it and it is part of Elvalia's character to do it, by no means is it her reason for being, she's far more likely to be found sitting around talking or involved in events than she is chopping down trees.
It is a difficult balance to achieve. As well as being part of her character crafting is essential to Elvalia in normal circumstances because it provides her with a means to survive (in normal circumstances - though obviously not at the moment - Elvalia buys arrows by the thousand, she has to). Before the Silver Quiver came into existence it was also a very useful means for new players to get to know her and a little about her, there is more than one PC now IG still carrying around a bow made by her (or were before better became available).
Perhaps a counter-suggestion? Better items available for crafting for those who are or have been willing to make the effort and who are interested in that sort of thing.
Crafting based economy? I would have to say I'm against it. |
Elvalia - Chosen of Aros
Elrith Mellin
Perin - 'Cleric (an' drewid) o' Elbreff' Weddin's an' pies a speciarality
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 06:34 AM |
Perhaps a counter-suggestion? Better items available for crafting for those who are or have been willing to make the effort and who are interested in that sort of thing.
Yes, this I definitely agree with. But as said, I believe this is a work very much in progress anyway. But leave that to pdw and Ara to reply to.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 06:38 AM |
| Yeah, I'm aware that pd was working on having more bows craftable - or had it on his list. I for one am in no hurry. |
Elvalia - Chosen of Aros
Elrith Mellin
Perin - 'Cleric (an' drewid) o' Elbreff' Weddin's an' pies a speciarality
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 08:05 AM |
Personally I think that the one major thing that Vives lacks is player involvment in its fundamentals, economy and politics to name but a few.
The two caveats that I would say to player run shops is accessibility and preventing monopolies.
Cantor has some really nice items that I would love to buy but unfortunately we dont go IG at the same time. I wondered whether there is a way his assistant could have access to his items for sale.
The other is ensuring that it is not a only a few people that have access to trade and thus create monopolies whereby they can charge ridiculour prices. That is not to say that supply by way of stock should become free (supply and demand is important) just simply that there should be a plentiful supply of traders.
One last thing, if Monopoly relates to markets controlled or dominated by a single entity (hence mono) is a market that is controlled by several entites a Polypoly? |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 08:09 AM |
Eleanor is a crafter first, but she has adventuring levels as a side effect of that. The only time she gets XP is when she crafts. (And I think she gets quite a bit of it.)
So why shouldn't she be able to make really useful items, if it's the focus of her life? |
Eleanor Thorn- Tinker and apprentice wizardess |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 08:52 AM |
Eleanor is a crafter first, but she has adventuring levels as a side effect of that. The only time she gets XP is when she crafts. (And I think she gets quite a bit of it.)
So why shouldn't she be able to make really useful items, if it's the focus of her life?
First of all, very few crafters can make that claim. As this is a more general discussion, aimed at the entire player base, your specific example is the exception rather than the rule, and is not what is being discussed really.
Secondly, there is no debate here about whether or not crafter items should be improved. All agree to that. And as also stated above, it -is- possible to make truly unique items, if you become a master craftsman, and that is an integral part of your characters rp, then quests can and do happen that allow the creation of items unlike any others Vives has. There is no guarantee of if or when that will happen, but I know of at least 3 instances where such quests have been run.
The point to this thread was more whether CNR should become the sole, or principal focus of the Vives economy. And that is what myself amongst others disagree with.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 10:07 AM |
I haven't really travelled around enough to know what is selling in most stores, but Sirac's point above makes sense to me. The best crafters would likely be dedicated exclusively to their craft, and therefore most likely NPC's (be they elven, dwarven, fire giant (? wow) etc.)
And Edrik's interest in crafting isn't to become a merchant. Being retired, he would no longer have access to the regimental smith's that would have done repairs for him (and all the other soldiers) in the past. His intention would be simply to develop enough skill that he could manage these repairs on his own. It would be purely an RP thing, since equipment isn't actually damaged, but I'd want some skill in smithing to back that RP up with. I'm not really sure how many ranks in the crafting skills that would equate to, but it definitely would not be enough for him to become a source for powerful items. |
"Beer is living proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin
"I hate quotation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson :P |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 11:30 AM |
Woo hoo! Spend a few hours away from the website and see what happens!
Rob, to address your general concerns:
point 4: All these items except one can be found IG; the one that cannot current be found IG exists in an unconnected, but soon to be connected area.
point 5: have you tried gaining levels beyond your "race limit". If not, why don't you do so and tell me what you discover before making a point of it?
Ok, as the one who is/was/will be updating the items for CNR, I'll tell you what will be happening:
1/ The items that can be created with CNR will be and need to be improved. My belief is that you should be able to make items as good as the items you can find in a high treasure drop.
2/ Unique items with "special" powers will need a high level crafter and lots of RP to make the item, since it is not easy to accomodate every possible combination that you might want to make within a CNR framework.
3/ CNR Economy? No. I think if CNR items were better, this would do the trick, especially for characters like Eleanor. As Benny says, no point in making bows if better bows can be found IG easily enough.
Fix the balance between shop items and CNR items and this problem solves itself.
4/ Alchemy has already been done. For those interested, new things were added (was it last november?) that makes it a bit more interesting. As well, the recipies were made consistent with each other to make some things easier and some things harder.
Now, lets talk about enchanting.
There are two ways that this can be handled. You can:
a) define a magic item for every possible combination that you allow
b) with a base object, add properties to it according to how you are enchanting it.
For example, lets take a +1 weapon that does 1d6 fire damage.
Under the method (a), I would need to define an object with the properties +1/+1d6 fire damage for every weapon type that could be created IG. E.g.
- dagger
- kama
- shuriken
- throwing axe
- dart
- light hammer
- hand axe
- mace
- sickle
- spear
- sling
- shortsword
- battleaxe
- club
- flail
- katana
- longsword
- morningstar
- quarterstaff
- rapier
- scimitar
- shortbow
- warhammer
- bastardsword
- dire mace
- two bladed sword
- double axe
- heavy flail
- greataxe
- greatsword
- halberd
- scythe
That's 32 objects on melee weapons alone for every possible combination of enchantment. So, if we allow +1 to +3 weapons, damage bonuses of +1, +2, +1d4, +1d6 - that is 12 x 32 combinations of melee weapons alone. Oh, and if we add in cold, electricity, sonic, acid, holy, unholy as well as fire, then it becomes a total of 2688 different objects that need to be defined to handle these cases when using option (a).
Oh, the nwnserver executable has a hardcoded limit of the maximum number of objects allowed within a mod and we are approaching it.
That, in a nutshell, is the problem with CNR. You need to define all the options for all the objects you wish to allow.
So, option (b) then. We can modify CNR to take a base object and "add" the attributes to the object we are working with. In the above option, we only need to consider the attributes of +1, +2, +3 as 3 attributes. acid to unholy damage as 7 attributes X 4 or maybe 5 damage levels, or less than 40 cases for melee weapons alone.
Much better, right?
Well, yes and no.
You see in NWN, an object (your character, your sword, your boots, etc...) can be referenced in one of two ways:
1/ as an object defined in the mod
2/ as an object that either does not exist in the mod, or has attributes added to it an object that exists in the mod.
If you have an object that falls under #2, it means that you can never store that object in a persistent container across a reset (or a crash induced reset) because if you do, the object will cease to exist, if it does not exist as a permanently defined object in the mod, or will lose all the customization or extra properties if it is a modified object.
This is why your beautifully customized armour stored in a chest goes back to the drab, plain old boring one. Keeping it on your characters inventory, where the object attributes are stored in addition to the object itself avoids this problem.
For those who care, it is because we do not have full object persistence. For those who don't, dont worry about it.
===
It thus comes down to those two choices. Which one do I choose? I cannot go with the first option completely because of the huge effort required to define all the required objects to make it work, and I cannot really go fully with the second because of the possibility that custom items will lose their values unless I can modify the system to have some kind of persistent object store.
This is where I at currently with CNR (while working on other things and doing some DM's and playing besides)
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 11:41 AM |
Oh, and I forgot to mention
Adding properties to objects using the CNR system will involve a fair rewrite of the CNR system to handle this functionality.
It's not difficult, it is just something that needs to be done and tested before it can be released IG - yet one more thing on the todo list.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 11:49 AM |
and all we have to worry about is playing, shame on all of us.... ;D
Thank you paul for your time and effort in this. As someone who only has one character who can make anything in the CNR system I am afraid Im like Sirac in that I dont like the crafting system, but I do love the rp of asking finding a PC to make me things 'if' they are better or cheeper then what i can buy from a NPC store.
I agree with the idea that make the items better for crafters would make them feel like there talents are being used, and its impressive the amount of time that Crafters spend to be able to make the high end items.
My 2 pence ;D |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 02:16 PM |
Editor's Note (Put On the Top For Emphasis) - I don't want to make it sound as though I'm making demands, and I don't want to belittle the tremendous work that has been put into the server in both NPC merchant creation AND in CNR advancement. What I'm talking about is my personal opinion of what direction the server should go with its CNR system. This sort of idea includes everybody, so it was made public so everybody could add their opinions.
Sirac makes a variety of interesting points.
Perhaps the concept of an ecomony entirely driven by PCs is a bit too idealistic.
Everybody agrees that the CNR system should be kicked up a so-called notch, but to what end? There was a reason that item creation in D&D took away experience, not granted it, and to a certain extent that's where the concept of focusing your entire life on it as opposed to becoming a warrior or a wizard or whatever comes into play. And even if CNR is generally improved, I still think that NPC vendors need to at least be nerfed a little bit so CNR can become more competitive.
I've offered my assistance before and I will again. If it speeds up the process, either by creating new recipes, altering old ones, submitting ideas for new versions of old items, testing things that are changed, or anything else, I'd love to.
As far as me being biased and creating this thread because it would benefit me, it's the truth! I've put in hundreds of hours into my crafting. I carry 100 pounds of crafting gear at any given time. I'm forced to try and figure out how with one ruby vein in the world in a hidden secret place guarded by epic level monsters how any PCs, let alone NPCs can make half the recipes. I've put a Hell of a lot of time into my crafting and I think that it should be worth something. Daimon agrees.
One reason I suggested that treasure table versions of CNR armour (Adamantium and Mithril, Mithril by the way nobody seems to agree on how to spell) should be replaced with the CNR versions. Why? Because I can't fathom how the same material can have two different properties if manufactured the same way. Also, it would make Mithril for instance actually available since Mithril Chain and such could be melted back down into ingots. To this extent Mithril would become available and maintain a high level of rarity. Putting a vein down almost anywhere just invites you to cover the land in that material if it's decent.
Also as a silly side idea, could the server be altered so that "Craftsman" or "Artisan" is a player class? |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 02:56 PM |
I've offered my assistance before and I will again. If it speeds up the process, either by creating new recipes, altering old ones, submitting ideas for new versions of old items, testing things that are changed, or anything else, I'd love to.
Ideas, we are in no shortage of.
Back to my post, you see the problem with CNR. We don't need another 30 thousand recipies for 30 thousand different objects that would need to be created. We need a solution for how to solve the problem and make it generic, without creating excessive overhead, without breaking the limits of the nwserver program, without creating objects that disappear when the server is reset.
At the very least, it will require
- coding modifications to the CNR code to allow for item property additions, rather than creating existing defined objects
- possibly the implementation of object store so custom objects don't get lost after they are created.
That needs coding.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 03:03 PM |
| Why not just change existing recipes instead of adding new ones? |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 03:17 PM |
Because that involves changing thousands of recipies and thousands of objects which is hundreds of hours of work doing nothing but working on that.
That also does not include the time required to figure out what those objects should be, their properties and how they are created.
Changing alchemy took me over 40 hours of work alone (some because I was not initially familiar with the process, some because I wanted to document the changes into a generic spreadsheet for keeping track of objects and recipies) and that was a simple one.
The alchemy gave me insight on how to do it faster in the future, preferably so that the recipie code can be automatically generated based on the inputs, but even that is a matter of time to sit down and write the generator.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 03:22 PM |
please forive me if with my lack of programing understanding i ask a stupid question, but is it not possible to make the items made by enchanting actual items that are in game already for instance
I have a long sword and i put in pot with magical CNR items and now it is changed into a longsword +1 that already is in game and is persistant? |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 04:22 PM |
| While I'm not 100% sure of how it worked, on one PW I used to build for the items Tag or ResRef (I don't remember which was coded) All of the items where a basic magicless mundane vrs as far as regular NWNs went however, we controlled the properties of the item like enhancements and special abilities in this code. The first part dictated what type of item it was such as weapon, armor, shield, and so on. After that was other values that dictated other properties. How the code read these tags and made the items unique based on them I have no idea, but I do know that we had items that had abilities that were nothing like a stock NWN item and they maintained these throught restarts and crashes. While I doubt this helps it popped up in my mind while reading this so I figured I would put it out there. |
Signed,
Bhrodi Ferocitas
"From discipline comes all else."
"He who wins the war writes the history."
"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
("If you want peace, prepare for war.") |
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Re: NPC Shops vs. PC Crafters
Posted: 08 Mar 2005 10:44 PM |
Boy this is a sticky topic.
I've had a pretty good time crafting through the first five levels in a couple areas, as crafting is pretty good RP. As someone said, its a great way to play solo if you don't step on any trolls' toes and git yerself killed (that's how that story really ended).
I've also been trying to figure out how to make CNR pay IG. Boy does that statement taste bad in my mouth. I'm one of those making money rather too easily by crafting a stack of things (bows w/ Vrodo) and selling them to whatever NPC merchant will pay well...what I really need is a dealer w/ high appraise to sell them for me, and keep a cut of the profits. Any takers? I'm only partly kidding. In any case, it seems like the main sense in crafting is to sell the products. Its either that, or settle for RP reasons to use the potent-but-inferior products of the CNR process. That actually sounds like something a lot of players would be willing to do, given the caliber of roleplayers in Vives. “Shlomo made me this…I’m going to use it forever!”
Note: I haven't made inordinate amounts of $$$ crafting and selling and don't really want the overstuffed bank account. More on that later.
I find this discussion of the current economy of Vives intriguing. The problem of 1) PCs selling all their recovered magical items to the NPC merchants, 2) creating NPC merchants with persistent stock that beats the hell out of anything anyone can make through CNR--as well as PCs with bloated bank accounts--is a curious and perhaps not unpredictable consequence of a persistent world. I’ve often heard Vives referred to as a low-magic world. I don’t know how it compares to other persistent worlds, but we seem to have created a world where every store is selling +1 everything and a Gruumsh Hand to boot.
What would happen if there was far less gold in this game? Meaning, what if no NPC merchant could afford to buy this stuff? That seems to be the main source of gold IG. Would people even pick up magic items if they knew they couldn’t sell them? How weird it would be if they found them and didn't value them?
I understand that gold comprises an important part of the penalty for respawning in Vives, and that tampering with the circulation of gold IG is to be handled delicately. Maybe the solution lies not in tampering with the items available—and tampering is not the right word for the work that the builders put into this—but on the money side of the Vives economy?
Has a gold-weight system ever been mentioned? There are several available out there. My search of the Vives forums didn’t turn up anything. Alternately, could this high-fantasy/low-magic world be made even lower-magic? Remove items (tears and all) rather than add them? We'll survive. Get past those owlbears with a bow made of Yew! Think before firing every arrow: can I replace these? Et cetera.
I do not practice what I preach above in my preachy voice. But I would, and I think I'd enjoy it. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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