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Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 09:55 AM |
This is a public apoligy to Jack Flashblade.
Due to an accident I had yesterday I was finding it hard typing alot and asked Jack not to rp with me but just help me finish the quests as I had done them so often after being here a year. He did and a dm having not asked us what was going on or why we were doing it took 1500 xp from each of the low level characters.
This was my fault alone and if you are so despreate to take 3,000 xp take the other 1500 from the same character and give it back to Jacks he was trying to help me fell a bit better while I sat here in pain.
Carlton Clarke
Thank you Jack. |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 10:21 AM |
The DM has forwarded the logs in question to me. (we do this anytime there is a punishment action taken).
From what I could see, the punishment was warranted.
There is never an excuse for metagaming, either for the one that encourages it, or the one who acts on anothers suggestion.
It takes two to tango.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 10:28 AM |
As I have stated I am quite willing to take the punishment but I feel that punishing somone for being nice seems alittle harsh. But seeing as I am unable to give him xp from my character there is little I can do about it.
Carlton |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 10:33 AM |
| Metagaming is still metagaming and will be viewed as such. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 10:35 AM |
| Fine |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:03 AM |
Sorry Carlton, but it was Jack's decision to metagame, he could have said no (as he should have) because he didn't he has been punished too. I understand that you had a bad RL situation yesterday, but that doesn't mean you should metagame yourself or encourage someone else to metagame with you.
There are plenty of other NWN servers out there that you can take your frustration out on that don't have any where near the number of rules that we do .
Hope you are feeling better anyway.
- Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:07 AM |
Ok - this is just a perspective but it seems to me part of the problem (and Im not pointing the finger) is the divide that exists between PCs and DMs.
When something goes wrong PCs often feel the need to defend themselves against a perception that DMs are being over tyrannical, when perhaps they are not.
On the other hand DMs, it appears, feel they need to take a firm line against PCs who they think are here to "cheat" or perhaps manipulate the system. The unfortunate consequence of this is that it can fuel the perception of tyranny.
Personally I think there needs to be some common ground by way of co-operation. I think what needs to be remembered is that DM or PCing is not a position of hierarchy but two roles in the story.
Confrontation can often be avoided but seldom is. That is a shame (and I'm speaking from experience). |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:11 AM |
*points to Sol as one of those people who have the lovely job of always being the one to play diplomat*
Its your fault for being nice though. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:14 AM |
Sorry Carlton, but it was Jack's decision to metagame, he could have said no (as he should have) because he didn't he has been punished too. I understand that you had a bad RL situation yesterday, but that doesn't mean you should metagame yourself or encourage someone else to metagame with you.
There are plenty of other NWN servers out there that you can take your frustration out on that don't have any where near the number of rules that we do.
Hope you are feeling better anyway.
- Sol
Thank you Sol,
I broke two ribs. Word of warning to others on vives. Do not drive your car into another car that has stopped at 30mph without putting the brakes on. But I was lucky as Akril came to visit me in hosptial and he made me laugh to which the pain doubled. Hummmms. |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:21 AM |
From mine and many others perspective........... there is no great divide between DM's and Players hereIt's one of the things that I feel this World is good at....... lots of honest communication.
One of the rather unpleasant tasks of a DM is to take a firm line with metagaming and other traits. This is completely necessary, believe meOtherwise the server wouldn't be what it is.
Any -perceived- divide usually comes from those who have been given warnings etc by DM's and simply can't take it on the chin and move forward........ it's nothing personal, nor tyrannical. We'd love more co-operation........ but the fact of the matter is that warnings only really happen when certain people (a tiny minority I might add) are not "co-operating" with the server rules and guidelines the DM's have set down for the benefit of all on the server, or in many initial cases they're new to the server and simply don't realise.
If people get a warning or turned into a penguin, don't worry about it (it's not personal) ........ just please don't do it again :P
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:23 AM |
Akril,
If you wish to reopen an old argument, the public forums is not the place for it.
Let me make this clear to any others who are reading this thread.
1/ Metagaming is forbidden. Period. No If's And's or But's
No one who has been here for any length of time can claim ignorance of this fact.
2/ People who get caught metagaming can seldom claim ignorance or excuses. When we take action, it is because of clear and unequivocal evidence of what happens. The facts are not subject to intrepretation.
It is unfortunate that there are borderline cases that we let slide because we do not want to be watching every little action the players do in order to make sure they do not fall afoul of a thousand little rules. Unfortunately, there are a small few who feel they can continue
We expect that people are mature and be considerate of others.
3/ Servers that allow metagaming are completely different from roleplay servers. If you feel you need to metagame, then perhaps a roleplay server is not the place for you.
We must enforce at least some standard of behaviour on this server in order to prevent it from becoming "just another hack and slash powergaming, pvp server". It seems to work judging from the high quality of roleplayers we get and keep.
4/ No one, who follows the rules, and enjoys this role play server for what it is, ever falls afoul of a DM. Never. Not Once. Period. Not on my watch.
Any DM caught abusing their power and abusing players will be kicked out on their bottom so fast, the bootmarks will remain imprinted on their buttocks for a long time to come.
This has never happened, and Akril, I resent your implication that the DMs are tyrannical.
We must enforce a few simple rules. If that is tyranny in your mind, then you don't belong here.
If my message appears angry, you would be right. It takes an incredible amount of work and time to make this place what it is, and there are many who work hard at making it better for all. All we ask is that you respect the simple rules. Punishments really have to be earned and when given, they are.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:30 AM |
Its your fault for being nice though.
Niceness is never a fault. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:36 AM |
*sighs* People alway think the DMs are out to get then even if they break clearly defined rules.
Cheating, metagaming, exploiting etc. is a huge slap in the face for those people that put their time in to build this place, run this place and DM this place. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 11:59 AM |
Without wishing to be confrontational, but does that not prove my point!
I agree... enforcing the rules against metagaming is perfectly legitimate and Carlton did deserve to be punished. I wouldnt say otherwise.
My point relates to the confrontation which need not be there.
Yes you're right, on occassions PCs do believe the DMs are "out to get them" and respond accordingly (and inappropriately) but at the same time I think DM's believe PCs are just there to abuse the system.
Because both sides come from the view point that its a battle (the DM to enforce the rules, the PC to rebel) confrontation is inevitable.
Now I'm not saying this would have worked but how about:
The DM says to the PC, "We are enforcing the rules because we feel you have metagamed".
PC replies "Sorry, my reasons were because of X, Y, Z"
DM "OK, we can understand that, but nevertheless to be consistant we have to enforce the rules, but fancy going back IG and having some fun".
Now because both sides come from the point of view of a battle this does not happen.
What you get instead is:
PC: It was because of X, Y, Z, give me a break!
DM: Thats not excuse. Tough!
And Bang!
Now I'm not blaming anyone here. Actually thats not true, I'm blaming everyone (just to be universal) *grins*
Essentially what I am trying to highlight is peace and love!!!
I've been in a situation where I have been guilty of assuming that the DMs were out to get me and I responded inappropriately. But at the same time I believe that this problem is two sided, and I learned that a) the hard way and b) from the universal experience of other servers.
There need not be any "us and them" culture and so when the inevitable occurance of an unfavourable DMing ruling occurs confrontation is less likely to follow. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:13 PM |
Now I'm not saying this would have worked but how about:
The DM says to the PC, "We are enforcing the rules because we feel you have metagamed".
PC replies "Sorry, my reasons were because of X, Y, Z"
DM "OK, we can understand that, but nevertheless to be consistant we have to enforce the rules, but fancy going back IG and having some fun".
Now because both sides come from the point of view of a battle this does not happen.
What you get instead is:
PC: It was because of X, Y, Z, give me a break!
DM: Thats not excuse. Tough!
And Bang!
Some comments about the above quote:
DMs are not perfect and I know that I myself personally can get angry when I watch someone exploiting and the second response becomes more likely. Breaking rules annoys me and usually ends with some response like: "Well rules are rules, they are put into the site FAQ for a reason.... etc." I'm not saying that my response is better but that is what happens some times. When I say it is a huge slap in the face, it really is. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:13 PM |
What you also get in some circumstances is:
PC: You did X! That was unfair! I'm lodging a complaint!
DM: *apologises and explains why what happened happened in a reasonable and civil manner, sometimes explaining multiple times to try and get the point across*
PC: I don't care! You're mean and I'm not listening to you!
What I've found in nearly every case where a player has had an issue with a DM, is that the player holds a grudge, where the DM does not. DMs have the responsibility of acting maturely and thoughtfully towards their player base, and it would be unprofessional for a DM to resort to personal insult, whining, complaining, and generally refusing to listen to reason. Yet, in several cases I've seen, the opposite has been true of the player. Grudges are bad things, especially on the internet. I don't hold them, and I hope other people don't either. In the name of respect, it should be hoped that players would not hold grudges against DMs for their judgement calls, decisions, or their mistakes.
Essentially, and back on the topic, on a server that clearly states in its core rules that metagaming, no matter what the reasoning behind it, is not permitted, it's not sensible to then metagame and expect no consequences. It's like complaining because you got caught by a speed camera. The fact remains that whatever the excuse, the rules were still broken. In my experience it's better to accept that, and move on, rather than complaining about the rules. Like speed cameras, they're there for good reason. |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:19 PM |
but at the same time I think DM's believe PCs are just there to abuse the system.
There is the problem. You dont know what the DM's think. And, you are completely wrong.
What we see are the actions of some players, who should know better, trying to abuse the the rules and the system. We dont think this. We know this. We see this. We watch it happen. Most of the players don't fortunately. There are just a few who do, and do so consistently.
It has nothing to do with what your belief is. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:28 PM |
Can I just add for clarity, , but it appears that the DMs are feeling that they need to defend themselves here, which was not my intention and I apologise if that is what has come from what I am saying.
I simply think that when DMs adminster the rules as they are expected to, there needs to be a mutual understanding from both sides in a bid to avoid confrontation.
Xerah, I think it would be unfair to expect DMs to be superhuman. I'm not and I would resent anyone expecting me to be. The problem is they are in a position of authority and rightly and wrongly that can lead to problems.
My point is aimed at PCs and DMs alike that at the end of the day we are all here to game and have fun. If things go awry I dont see that there is any need for arguments. What makes it worse is internet communication is aweful.
Yasmyn, I completely agree with you about the speed camera's and I believe that PCs are just as guilty of being confrontational and holding grudges etc... and I also agree its pointless. Why bother having a fight. I know I have fallen out with one DM in particular over behaving in this very way and I regret that because I actually think they were fun to game with. I expect things will go back to normal, at least I hope they will, but we've wasted the time in between.
One thing to bare in mind with the Speed Camera analogy, is if you were caught by a police officer, and you gave them one of the many excuses they had heard a billion times over, a good cop would simply smile and say "Of course you were sir, but I'm still giving you a ticket". A cop that said "Dont give me that crap" would find that a lawyer would have the charges removed. Thats what we are paid for *grins in the hope others will appreciate he's being lighthearted*
I simply think that when you have to have someone to force the rules, there needs to be effort on both sides of the table to make that work.
Lets all play together and have fun. You wouldnt get this in your PnP games would you? *grins* Pizza anyone? |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:32 PM |
Let me make this again clear.
Metagaming is forbidden. Period. No If's And's or But's
I have one more thing to add to that.
No compromises
If you get caught metagaming, I am not going to listen to your excuses. There is no reason for it. I will not compromise with a rule breaker. It is not a discussion, or a debate. We do not sit down to talk about it. You know the rules and so do I. Break them and live with what happens.
I am also annoyed that there are some players who feel they can hurl abuse at the DM's because the DM's called them on their metagaming and rule breaking. When that happens, any sympathy, or desire by a DM to help out, or let things go with a lesser warning are gone.
You reap what you sow.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:33 PM |
That's interesting Akril, a few things though, I for one am not here to rebel, and niether are a lot of the IG friends I like to play with. I have a hard time believing the DM's don't know we exist.
Also, in my humble opinion, an "us and them" culture is paramount to the experience of this server. In 18 years of PnP gaming, the DM has always been a friend first and foremost, but an adversary regarded with a grudging respect once he sat down behind that DM screen and picked up his dice of doom It's what keeps the game intrigueing and challenging! Everytime I'm in vives and it gets a little laggier than normal, or I notice something that shouldn't be there I get a nervouse grin on my face and say to myself ,"alright what's that evil bugger up to now?". If everything was rainbows and roses I'd have been gone a few months ago. Without the occasional heavy hand, or a certain finality to ones actions, this would just be another childish "hack 'n slash gimme sumthin' nice Monty Hall" server.
Vives answers the age old question,"Why do adults play D&D isn't it supposed to be a kids game?"
I strongly suggest we play like adults , take risks like adults, and take our lumps like adults, so that we can all enjoy the game...you guessed it...like adults.
:) |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:36 PM |
Akril: Does anyone else actually think there's an "Us and Them" culture here? or are you speaking solely for yourself and what you -perceive- to be the case?
-Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:39 PM |
At the end of the day this server belongs to a group of people and they have the right to run it how they wish.
My comments arent to suggest that the DMs be more lenient, or that PCs be more submissive. My comments are that when it happens it need not produce conflict.
DMs have the right to be forceful if they wish but it will produce a backlash. You may say "thats tough" but its seems pointless.
I guess what I am saying is that "Diplomacy is the -art- of letting someone have -your- way!".
If you can achieve the same objective (namely punishing and preventing metagming) without having a big fight about it, would that not be more fruitful!
Its the Wind and the Sun syndrome.
As for Johe's points I completely agree 100%. The point isnt about how DMs should DM or how PCs should PC.
I'm just trying to get people to learn from my experiences regarding avoiding confrontation. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:43 PM |
Akril: Does anyone else actually think there's an "Us and Them" culture here? or are you speaking solely for yourself and what you -perceive- to be the case?
-Ara
I actually dont think there is an "us and them" culture, not since my personal experiences with the DMs and what I have learnt.
I do however think there is a perception of an "us and them" culture amongst a lot of other PCs. I'm just perhaps more outspoken than they are.
As I have just said, I am trying to encourage all parties to perhaps not be so confrontational, in a bid to keep everyone friends.
I'm certainly not going to continue if I am going to draw fire in my efforts to do so. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:47 PM |
| For the record diplomacy is also the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip ;) |
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Re: Sorry to Jack Flashblade
Posted: 23 Feb 2005 12:48 PM |
"If you can achieve the same objective (namely punishing and preventing metagming) without having a big fight about it, would that not be more fruitful!"
This happens 99% of the time, people take it on the chin and move on. I've never heard anyone bar yourself bring this sort of topic up
If any "Us and Them" culture is to arise I'm pretty sure that this thread is going about creating one right now, albeit solely between yourself and the Dm's. Seriously fella, you need to look at how you're wording things, and think about whether this is a server-wide problem or one solely existing in your imagination.
- Ara
EDIT:
"I do however think there is a perception of an "us and them" culture amongst a lot of other PCs. I'm just perhaps more outspoken than they are."
I think people can other speak for themselves unless they've asked you to do so on their behalf, which I highly doubt.
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