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Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 05 Aug 2003 10:51 PM |
Motivation.
It is one of my serious wishes that this - DB-driven, persistent in-game writable book - can be implemented in-game. My wish is driven by the following potential advantages:
(I) Spreading the background development work. There's only so much the dev-team can write. If this is in place, the task of enriching the world can be shared amongst all of us - a history of a landmark, manifestation of a religion, creative writing... (not to mention it's so much more fun in-game than the toolset )
(II) Player-Player Interactions. Won't it be wonderful to come home and find... a birthday card in your mailbox? Won't it be wonderful that your character's life-story (or any story, for that matter) can be read and remembered, even when he/she has given up, for whatever reason? (Won't it be nice to be able to leave a mark, per se?)
(III) DM-Player Interactions. I can taste the possibilities that opens up when DMs an dynamically create Notes / Tomes / Histories with hints and details inside.
And then, this can of course be applied to any other structure which requires player-input being stored and accessed in a later time. Sculptures / artwork... I feel that these are more meaningful than say, selling the 'crafted items' for gold.
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Projected Features.
I have started working on it in-teh-mitten-ly; the problem is more of a conceptual difficulty rather than implementational work. Hence this post - it's partly delinearating the problem for myself, as well as inviting input from you folks. I would like to see:
(1) Something (henceforth referred to as Parchment) being Readable. When activated, this retrieves a string from somewhere, and displays it through a conversation dialogue.
(2) The Parchment should also be Writable - Multipaged, Titled, Dated.
(3) The Parchment should be Appendable. I.e., someone should be able to comment on it at the end.
(4) The Parchment should be Editable. E.g., in case of an typo.
(5) The Parchment should be Duplicable. There should be a means to create multiple copies of it.
(6) The content could be accessible via the website.
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Projected Implementation
- Each Parchment, on its own, should be an item that is accessed OnActivate.
- When in Writing Mode, the Parchment should store Date, Author, Title, Multiparted Contents, by user input or otherwise, into the DB under a particular format.
- On Reading mode, the Parchment should retrieve the above from the DB under a particular format. The key for the retrieval is contained in its Tag.
Conceptual Mysteries Needs Demystifying.
- How can someone look at a parchment and know what it is? (bookspine, per se. A 'bookspine reading gadget'?)
- How to access the 'Edit' function? Particularly, how does one access a particular page, if one wishes to do so?
- How to access the 'Append' function?
- What should be editable, and what are not? (it would be highly unrealistic to sign a contract and be able to 'edit' it eventually)
- Should the Duplicate function duplicate contents of DB, or just CreateObject with identical tag? The former suffers from inefficient use of space (I don't know how severe it would be), whereas the latter suffers from Edit problem (I edit my copy and the edits appear in yours).
- It seems the Editing / Appending can be most facilely done via the web-interface. How much could be - or more importantly, should be accessible via a web-interface?
- How, if there should be, a mechanism for disposing of these items? Would the storage space be forever tied up?
- What abusal potentials are there? What can be done to counter these?
- Should it be tied to any other game-mechanics? E.g., should this be accessible only to certain INT+?
- What other benefits are there?
- Even if we could do it - should we? |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 05 Aug 2003 11:47 PM |
hmmm... adding bard poems would definitely be nice :D
BTW, great organization of your thoughts.
I want to ponder about this for a bit, before adding some thoughts.
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Punchinello Longfello
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Picasso Picante
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 05 Aug 2003 11:59 PM |
| I know absolutely nothing about implementing such a feature, but I think this is a fantastic idea! I love the idea of being able to put my more memorable stories into permanent books for others to read. Way to go, Arizzle! I wish you much success in implementing this. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 07 Aug 2003 08:05 AM |
| I would DEFINITELY love to see this implemented :) |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 11 Aug 2003 09:45 PM |
So~! Excited to say a very preliminary version of this is here!
Right now it does very little - merely notes thru a hijacked bbs interface which DogRed mentioned - but at least the persistency is there, and the way the data is organized will allow us to eventually open up a large number of things undoable with the normal (if I can say that!) bulletin board...
The only scribe right now is sitting in Midor Library. The instructions will be clear on its own... the rest will be coming soon, sometime... Feel free to go test it and slot letters in mailboxes and the public bulletin boxes!
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Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 11 Aug 2003 10:56 PM |
Two words.............
AWESOME ARIA!!!
Cheers
Arathon :D |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 11 Aug 2003 11:45 PM |
| Uh huh.. great work |
~Alosynth
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 12 Aug 2003 11:26 AM |
I was just thinking that you could also add in having sealing wax and signet rings so that you could "lock" your letters. This way if you were to have someone deliver a note for you the recipient could tell if it had been tampered with. Just a thought. Sorry that isn't about the books per say, but I thought this was sort of along the same idea.
-Calmeir |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 12 Aug 2003 08:07 PM |
I was just thinking that you could also add in having sealing wax and signet rings so that you could "lock" your letters. This way if you were to have someone deliver a note for you the recipient could tell if it had been tampered with. Just a thought.
I'm thinking of adding in an inherent counter to the messages, testimony to how often (or if at all) the message have been read. It won't be strictly speaking a on-off thing like sealing-wax, but it does give some more elements and eventual use. Nice idea!
There are a number of other features that I'm aware of and can be done, amongst which are languages (incl. thieves cant). As of now, however, the priority & challenge is in hooking up the backend to the front in a satisfactory way; this should give rise to multipaged documents, and writing without the need of a scribe. After that is done, the next will be a mechanism to make duplicate copies of parchments.
I'm also pondering about restricting certain features based upon INT, as an extension to the rule-of-thumb that those with 8 or below INT cannot speak properly. I'm thinking that with natural INT of 9 or below cannot read, and those with natural INT 10 or below cannot write. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 12 Aug 2003 08:16 PM |
I think that to use the INT restrict properly, one should key it off a negative ability score. If you have an INT bonus of +0, you would be of average intelligence, and should probably be able to read and write. This lets most players use the feature while punishing min/maxers. This could be extended to a high +INT bonus (+3 maybe?) being able to read other languages... but that's kind of a lore thing... As high lore should allow you to read other languages too...
Anyway, I digress... |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 13 Aug 2003 01:28 PM |
| So with 10 INT - average intelligence - one should be able to read and write? I agree on the player-feature aspect, but I would hardly expect that in a fantasy world (based on real world) the 'average' person can read/write. (go to texas ) The lore aspect will definitely be in when I get around the other stuffs (like language at first place!) |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 13 Aug 2003 01:38 PM |
I was thinking.. maybe the author and time shouldnt be displayed?
I think it will be better if the scribe will ask if you wish to write it or not,
cuz after all.. not everyone want others to know who wrote the note.. in case it get to the wrong hands.. =P |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 13 Aug 2003 01:49 PM |
I think he has a point there, also that way you can write anonymous threat and or ransom notes.... Ohhh the possibilities. Too bad I am a good guy...
-Calmeir |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 13 Aug 2003 01:56 PM |
Re: Anonymous. Right now it is displayed primarily for OOC reasons rather than really 'a signature' or anything - actions have to be held accountable to someone at a player's level. It cuts out much irresponsible actions.
Selective display could be an option, but as of now I'll have to keep it there and let you folks roleplay those aspects (until there's time to make a special interface for unmasking the anon.). |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 13 Aug 2003 01:58 PM |
I think he has a point there, also that way you can write anonymous threat and or ransom notes.... Ohhh the possibilities. Too bad I am a good guy...
Won't it be even better to threaten someone else to pen the letter? |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 13 Aug 2003 02:17 PM |
(go to texas )
umm... I live in Texas... :P
Most people can read and write here, so long as you're not picky about which language... ;) |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 14 Aug 2003 01:24 PM |
I'm glad you found that script useful Aria. On the intelligence thing, the book system I mentioned early handles it this way: an intelligence above 10 (I believe) allows the PC to read a book in his language. Players with intelligence of 16 can identify which language the book is written in (if not their own). Players with lower intelligence between 10 and 16 can't determine which language the book is written in, if not their own. I like this system because it means that players who cannot read a book, still have a chance to figure out what language it is in, which would hopefully cause them to seek out other PCs who speak the needed language...thus prompting more RP.
What I would like to see is the ability of a PC to learn more than one language, depending on their intelligence score as per the DMG. The DMFI wands come with language items that can be placed in a PC's inventory. I wonder if those could be tied into the book system somehow. Make it so players who possess different language items can read books of different languages. This could also lead to the creation of a language academy...where PC's go to study new languages or complete certain quests to "learn" new languages (ie be give the language items).
It would also be amazing to a see a book system that allows players to use and create books that have magical powers...Imagine a book written in a dragon language, which, when used by a PC who has a dragon language item in their inventory, creates a conversation that allows the player to "read" different phrases contained in the book, which in turn result in magical effects.
In real life during the middle ages, books were incredibly valuable. Not only were they expensive and time consuming to make, they could only be created by a select few (those who could read and write). As a result, its common to see books of that era have actual locks on them, or chain clasps! By making NWN books limited according to intelligence and language score, and by making some contain magical powers in addition to plain old information, we would be adding value back into NWN books. A PC with a good book collection could be extremely wealthy/powerful. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 14 Aug 2003 02:07 PM |
I'm glad you found that script useful Aria. On the intelligence thing, the book system I mentioned early handles it this way: an intelligence above 10 (I believe) allows the PC to read a book in his language. Players with intelligence of 16 can identify which language the book is written in (if not their own). Players with lower intelligence between 10 and 16 can't determine which language the book is written in, if not their own. I like this system because it means that players who cannot read a book, still have a chance to figure out what language it is in, which would hopefully cause them to seek out other PCs who speak the needed language...thus prompting more RP.
I think this INT handling sounds very reasonable - any other opinions on this? I've started working on some prototype multipaged documents last night (0.90g), and 've set INT 10 to be a prerequisite for read-write.
What I would like to see is the ability of a PC to learn more than one language, depending on their intelligence score as per the DMG. The DMFI wands come with language items that can be placed in a PC's inventory. I wonder if those could be tied into the book system somehow. Make it so players who possess different language items can read books of different languages. This could also lead to the creation of a language academy...where PC's go to study new languages or complete certain quests to "learn" new languages (ie be give the language items).
When we get about to it...
I think it's been a long-standing wish of players & builders to have a language school (nothing better than to bark at someone gossiping about you~!). The only thing that I'm having reservation about is how to limit the players effectively from learning every single language... perhaps another INT-limit?
It would also be amazing to a see a book system that allows players to use and create books that have magical powers...Imagine a book written in a dragon language, which, when used by a PC who has a dragon language item in their inventory, creates a conversation that allows the player to "read" different phrases contained in the book, which in turn result in magical effects.
I do not see how this can be done as of now. Our reading procedure is effectively an organized text-dump of content; try out the convo-based ones in 0.90g, and let me know of ideas that have potentials to do this, based on the interface we have?
In real life during the middle ages, books were incredibly valuable. Not only were they expensive and time consuming to make, they could only be created by a select few (those who could read and write). As a result, its common to see books of that era have actual locks on them, or chain clasps! By making NWN books limited according to intelligence and language score, and by making some contain magical powers in addition to plain old information, we would be adding value back into NWN books. A PC with a good book collection could be extremely wealthy/powerful.
I look forward to seeing that happening. Book/Parchments will have to be necessarily more widely available than realism calls for - not unlike the consideration that it's almost absurd that every single person is armed in some way! This is partly from considerations that, hey, this is a game for fun, and partly that a wide availability of books/parchments encourages players to use them, which reinforces our vision that our players share in our world in more than the hack-and-slash way. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 14 Aug 2003 02:33 PM |
I'm glad you found that script useful Aria. On the intelligence thing, the book system I mentioned early handles it this way: an intelligence above 10 (I believe) allows the PC to read a book in his language. Players with intelligence of 16 can identify which language the book is written in (if not their own). Players with lower intelligence between 10 and 16 can't determine which language the book is written in, if not their own. I like this system because it means that players who cannot read a book, still have a chance to figure out what language it is in, which would hopefully cause them to seek out other PCs who speak the needed language...thus prompting more RP.
I think this INT handling sounds very reasonable - any other opinions on this? I've started working on some prototype multipaged documents last night (0.90g), and 've set INT 10 to be a prerequisite for read-write.
I'm ok with the concept, but INT 16 seems to be a dang high check... this would almost restrict this ability to mages... But rogues are supposed to have the ability to decipher script (lore based, I believe), allowing them to read/understand other languages, although they typically do not have high INT. Going back to your Texas example, there's an awful lot of people here with INT<16(WAY less than INT 16) that can speak two languages...Perhaps rising INT could enable the PC to learn additional languages as the modifiers increase, maybe +2 for the first additional language, +4 for the second, and so forth. Still, this cuts at least Merum out with his INT modifier of 0, although his lore is fairly high. Anyway, just $.02
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Question Authority! |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 14 Aug 2003 03:32 PM |
| I feel that we're onto another topic right now, regarding languages etc.. Maybe it's about time to start a new thread specifically on this issue. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 16 Aug 2003 02:15 AM |
Very proud to announce that multipaged, self-scribing documents are worked out (finally). These will be available at selected stores from 0.91 onwards
If these get used often/enough, I'll start rehauling certain existing things, e.g., making library persistent, and/or having bookcases around. And other features like eventual editability / times read / languages etc....
Added in edit: "photocopiers" - just general automated ways to duplicate a document for distribution. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Persistent Writable Books.
Posted: 16 Aug 2003 05:28 PM |
| Nice to see the good work... Aria go go =) |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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