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DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 29 Nov 2004 04:16 PM |
Sounds like a perfect title for a cartoon. But unfortunately it has been one of my pet peeves. Basically I wanted to hear how you all felt about it. Again in the past (*does his taperecorder impression*) we discussed this type of behaviour and how we could go against it.
To be clear, when I say Looping Loot runs I mean people, most of them high level thieves, who know where high magic items spawn; the locations I mean. Because of their high stealth, lockpicking, detect traps, etc. they can easily overcome the traps and locks placed and elude the monster(s) near the treasure.
There is of course nothing wrong with the scenario of a thief stumbling on a locked and trapped chest, guarded by a monster, and finding a high level item for his thieving trouble. I do find it somewhat frustrating however if some people use their OOC knowledge of knowing there is a high level item someplace after every reset, to walk their loot-round every time they log in for an easy pack of good items. Doing this over and over and over.
I'll emphasize that I am not against players finding good items or players using their skills to avoid combat and getting a good item out of it, I am against players revisiting areas a zillion times to get the good item there because they know it will be good (like there always being a +3 weapon or +2 with added enhancements in Gigglesnort's auctioneers). Somehow I have always seen this as unfair. There is no real challenge, the whole venture is degraded to a high level item loot run, which accumulates over time.
In the older days Q had some excellent suggestions to add some more risk to this kind of behaviour when it concerns houses in cities. Guards being able to recognize these 'thieves' at one point.
So I wondered if someone else had thoughts about this too?
On a sidenote, if the majority sees this type of behaviour as entirely normal and natural, I'll go with the flow and do as I do now, look the other way and grind my teeth  .
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 29 Nov 2004 04:29 PM |
(like there always being a +3 weapon or +2 with added enhancements in Gigglesnort's auctioneers)
I thought the guardian had TS or really high spot.. if not he should have a really high spot *grin*
And in general -
there must be a way to solve this, beside using methods that will punish everyone (such as adding TS to all monsters)
I dont know exactly how does the treasure system in NWN - and combined with Vives modifictions - work, but afaik it is supposed to limit that amount of networth one char can have, based on his level.
(i.e. when someone riches that max value he wont get any items that worth more than X [he'll only get minor 'magical' items if he'll get any at all])
now, I dont even know if this works with Vives tables - because I see things like Cantor, that used to walk with 20+ bags filled with high magical items.
maybe we should check if that system is working properly.. or consider reducing the value of netowrth a char can have?
it will reduce the amount of gold and magical items in the economy, prevent low level chars from get random drops of high level items (that they cant use) and prevents higher lvls from stocking items.
(of course, they could put them in a container and then the value wont count - but the rental/persistant containers are limited so it shouldnt be that much of a problem [and those containers that arent, should be])
also - if people wont carry around tens of bags filled with things, or even an inventory without bags that is filled with things - it might reduce the lag.
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of course we can reduce the chance of high lvl items drops - but that will punish everyone, and I guess it will just encourage people to loot more
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Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 29 Nov 2004 05:06 PM |
Hmm, this has been argued from both perspectives in a number of threads. The counter argument for thieves in particular being of course that there should be more high value targets than actually exist IG. I mean only two noble mansions in the entirety of Midor? Only 1 or 2 places in the entire "civilized" world worth a high level rogue stealing from? No, it doesnt make sense.
So as far as I see it, the problem isnt really thieves. It is no different that a thief goes to a place that they know there is good loot than -any- character going to a place in the wilderness that there is good loot. What difference if Muga goes and kills displacer beasts or Sirac goes to the Midoran academy and defeats the dc 46 trap there? None. Same lack of challenge really to both characters. If anything Sirac is more likely to rp it out, always hiding, opening and closing doors behind him, etc. Muga...well she just hits the beasts and takes the loot. The critters aint even worth being eaten. It is how it is rp'd that makes the difference, and the frequency with which it is done.
And in both cases if a character is seen going anywhere too often then that's where we as DM's can and should step in. Not to punish or kill, but to scare and make the world come alive...and sure the character might die or might get away. But whatever happens the player should enjoy the shock of the unexpected. Not just feel they were given no chance.
Pd and I have made quite a few changes to Gigglesnorts in the last couple of months. It -is- challenging now. I've seen Pickston going there a bit too often. So have given him a scare there on at least 3 occassions. Once he died, the other two he got away. When he died he respawned. No complaints, no whining. That's a level 22ish character. I'm actually a lot more bothered by the looting Ive seen Arcane doing...as a paladin its innapropriate. Or the looting Cantor supposedly used to do, camping and logging in and out of the same spot. Those are much worse than any problem with IG thieves.
The simple facts are that players like items, they like xp, and they will go to places where they can get those things. Its a fun part of Vives. Some like it more than others. To me, if the rp comes first, and they rp well when given the chance I couldnt care less. If it doesnt, then we try to educate players, and try to make them scared of being too casual. But we have to be careful also, not to become too obsessed with what players have what items. In the end it levels out, there are only so many good items IG, and eventually characters will get equipped well enough it doesnt matter so much to them. In 99% of cases anyway.
Ive killed a number of players in the Midor estates. Ive also gone there and seen Benny's thief or Johe stealing from there...quite regularly at one time. But they rp'd it, at least to the extent they were walking so presumably hiding. Every guard in that place could see them cos their spot is ridiculously high. But I left them be cos they were at least trying to be careful.
Sirac has epic focus Move Silently, and a HS and MS somewhere in the mid 60's now. And yet there are way too many creatures that can see him with ease. *shrugs* If anything I dont think there are enough challenging thieves quests and thief oriented areas. Forget the loot, thief characters love the challenge of exploring trap riddled areas. Ask Benny about the quest where his low level thief went to steal Elbereth's tears. It was pure traps and sneaking, and very fun to DM and play.
Anyway, Im rambling. But hope some of the above makes sense. More on this in the morning if needed...time for sleep. *grins*
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 03:05 AM |
A few points on this from me :
- As Sirac says, the best way to handle persistent "offenders" is IC and in a way that they have a chance (i.e. we don't outright kill them)
- We have a lot of rules as it is, I don't think another rule to try to limit looting would help, and it would be very difficult to implement/police.
- Any IG solutions targetted at thieves possibly don't deal with other players who are also "thieves" without having any levels! And any in town rules as such will just push looters to other out of the way places.
- Ultimately this is an RP world, we all try to reward players that RP, and although people like Arcane may repeatedly loot places over and over to get that +3 amulet (or whatever) he is least likely to get an RP quest run for him where he can get his ultimate item, the holy avenger. On other words, we DMs will reward the better RPers with better items than the looters are likely to get anyway, so on balance things should even out.
So I would say leave the systems and the rules as they are and let's all handle instances of repeated looting IG and IC.
Cheers,
- Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 03:27 AM |
(SNIP!)
- Ultimately this is an RP world, we all try to reward players that RP, and although people like Arcane may repeatedly loot places over and over to get that +3 amulet (or whatever) he is least likely to get an RP quest run for him where he can get his ultimate item, the holy avenger. On other words, we DMs will reward the better RPers with better items than the looters are likely to get anyway, so on balance things should even out.
So I would say leave the systems and the rules as they are and let's all handle instances of repeated looting IG and IC.
Cheers,
- Sol
That's pretty much my entire view on the matter.
-V |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 04:32 AM |
The world is not and can not "large" enough to offer enough treasure drops so that characters only need to visit a particular drop once.
We can keep an eye on things and see that the drops are not releasing uber items.
People have fun in different ways. As long as the actions of one don't hurt or bother others, let them do what they wish (within reason)
The RP'ers more consistently get love and attention from the DM's, which I think is more rewarding than another loot run. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 05:46 AM |
The world is not and can not "large" enough to offer enough treasure drops so that characters only need to visit a particular drop once.
We can keep an eye on things and see that the drops are not releasing uber items.
People have fun in different ways. As long as the actions of one don't hurt or bother others, let them do what they wish (within reason)
The RP'ers more consistently get love and attention from the DM's, which I think is more rewarding than another loot run.
This is a vision I agree with entirely, but...
The goal here is not to make it impossible for people to do loot runs, but, as mentioned by others, to increase the challenge. Let me straighten out a few misconceptions first. I was not referring to the thief class in specific, I used them as an example since they are a class who can reach areas others can not simply because they do not have the skills to do so. The repetitive looting refers to every player, regardless their class, consciously revisiting an area plainly to get the item, of which they know it will be of a certain level. Which I find a weakness in the treasure tables to be honest.
A year ago in this discussion some very cool suggestions were made, suggestions which only seem logical to implement and are NOT aimed at punishing players or a certain class. For instance Q thought it might be possible to code guards so that they could recognize a certain person if they keep committing the same crime. I mean it would be rather silly if a certain character goes into a certain manor twenty times, and is seen five times by the posted guards in said manor and then nobody knows what the character looks like? This of course UNLESS the character played it out in a good way. As I recall an Rp session with a certain halfling thief by the name of Lisen. The guard heard a noise, checked it out and she hid behind an object, so consequently he did not see her, had no description and could do nothing.
This is by far not always the case. And since we do like to promote Roleplay I think it would be nice to create a more consistent response to these kind of IG situations. It will force players to carefully go about their business when going on a stealing spree in a city filled with guards. And not saunter in rob the city blind and deal with an occasional DM appearance, die or escape and then repeat after reset. You'd figure at one point the local resident, after being robbed fifty times in a row, might think about starting an investigation or not store his important items in that particular cabinet. Not to mention if certain persons keep doing their loot runs, think about all those other players who finally reach a place they never were before and find an empty chest? Just because they are ten levels lower than the thing that was there before them and had no real trouble getting rid of the monsters.
Then there is Dens' suggestion, if that is possible it could help to create a balance in items and avoid situations where you end up with a few players possessing every good item that can be found on the server (a situation I never thought quite logical if you reason what vives is about and stands for). More random treasure sounds nice. Items get very static if you as a player can figure out where you can find the best item. (And IG I have seen the opposite happen, players making an item valuable tying the effort they put into acquiring it, to it)
I argued about items before. How item hoarding kills the value of an item. Especially the roleplaying value. I see named items in player's possessions with which I think could have been made great small plots. Instead they rip it out of a chest, dump it in their container and leave it there till at one point they might need the ability to best a certain monster. That is my main grugde against repetitive looting.
It would not be that bad either if players doing this indeed would keep everything themselves and not bother other players with it, who do Roleplay. So you can easily ignore the impact of their actions.
IG actions should have IG appropriate consequences I think we all agree there. So in the instance of Arcane, what seems completely valid is changing his alignment. Since he is not being lawful good. But in that same line of thought what do you do with a character repeatedly breaking into the same house, being spotted several times by the inhabitants or guards? Monsters fight for their treasures, NPC's rarely do.
Not that any of this is easy, it is difficult to find a balance between ample areas for people to find a challenge and not have a few players who hop to the places which yields the best treasure. But just because it might be complicated does not mean we have to sit idle and do nothing. We don't need rules for it either, rules usually achieve the opposite of what you intend. Instead I was asking for suggestions to take away the staticness tied to repetitive looting and it's harmful effects. I'm not a genius with the toolset or code, so have no idea what is possible and what is not. It does not have to be something drastic, so far I've heard about more random treasure, checking the item levels someone already has, and more active NPC's reaction.
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 06:23 AM |
Aside from dealing with things as a DM as and when needed, I don't personally feel there is a major problem here.
Some players go to areas above their level to try and get high xp rewards. And sometimes I jump in and they get a hell of a scare, maybe even die.
Some people go to high loot areas. And sometimes I jump in and they get a hell of a scare, maybe even die. *grins and shrugs*
Both pursuits are fun. They are not ruining Vives, unless we let them get out of hand or we become too restrictive about them.
I have caught two thieves on separate occassions at Gigglesnorts, killed them and when they didnt respawn I picked up their bodies, threw them outside the front door, attached a note to them saying "this is the fate that befalls all thieves, signed by Gigglesnort". I didnt get a single ooc moan, despite one of the players in question being legendary for his temper tantrums (Lambert). It created a good deal of rp from the players that found them. And neither character ever returned to Gigglesnort...in my timezone anyway! *chuckles*
I have done similar things when I see a certain area being looted over and over. Benny is one of our finest rp'ers. Yet he looted the Lynaeum and the Midor estates over and over as his thief. Doesnt lessen his rp in the slightest in my book.
There are few characters that have a better selection of items than mine. I unashamedly like finding loot, and like getting xp. I also love to rp. I think Im the only player with 2 epic characters and a third who is slowly getting close to epic. Does this mean my characters have had a "harmful effect" on the server, and on what Vives is meant to be, and on other peoples enjoyment here? I really dont believe so...and with the vast majority of our players I dont believe their style of play does either.
I honestly think if we dont get too uptight about it...and just keep an eye out for when people are taking the p*** that is all that is needed.
I mean it would be rather silly if a certain character goes into a certain manor twenty times
This is what I and others were referring to by saying the world can never be large enough. There are only a finite number of areas to get loot. Yes it is silly that a character goes to the same manor 20 times...there should be twenty different manors. There arent. So as long as when the player goes they are taking some care, trying to sneak and not just running in throwing open every door and ransacking the place under the guards noses, no problem. If they are taking the p*** then it is down to us as DM's to show them the error of their ways.
Same with areas with hostile creatures. And I really do believe most of our players know the risks, and enjoy them when a DM does get involved.
Take away the amount of items a player can get, reduce the amount of xp a player can ever have, place ooc restrictions on these things and you are doing more harm than good in my book. Instead deal with it in an IC rp'd way, and you enhance rather than detract from the world.
The only time I ever had a run in with a DM in Vives was over this very topic. I was new(ish) to the world, and still learning my way around. I didnt know what farming was, but was 100% guilty of it. But I was accosted by a DM, who has since left, and was given a very hard time over what I had been doing. Totally ooc. No attempt to talk / explain / educate, just an ooc tirade. They had been watching me for a while and had gotten irate about what I was doing (the Midor mansions as it happens). They could have killed my character, put me through any manner of IC difficulty and I would have loved the experience. Instead it really made me unhappy for a while, and totally spoiled my ooc enjoyment of Vives for a while. All because the DM, who was a top class rp'er, had gotten so wound up about this very subject.
If anyone can name examples of peoples actions that are "ruining" Vives then we can look at dealing with them. And if scripting changes can be done that are reasonable, and make the world come alive without DM presence then all the better. But to see this as a huge issue is to forget what players enjoy. For the same reason as many of our DM's who dont have the time to play so much enjoy CPC's of higher levels, with better items than they could otherwise achieve rather than just playing low level weaker, poorly equipped characters. Vives takes time...it takes time to achieve high levels and good item selections. Hundreds and hundreds of RL hours. So if someone invests the time, and over that time has also shown an interest in rp...let them be I say.
dang, I do waffle on a lot! Sorry about that.
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 07:37 AM |
I think a simple suggestion could be that we bug report areas of high loots spawn and swap them occasionally with areas of low loot spawn, like every month or so. This means that players will never know where to find the "good" loot.
Having said that, that's a lot of work too .
And as we have been using Arcane as an example here, if you actually look at his inventory, he hasn't actually got very good items. Ara and others have actually toned down some of the high level loot drops over the past few months and I think this has helped a lot.
*shrugs* just another few gps from me .
- Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 07:39 AM |
Just another thought/question for Ruldain and Dens (seeing as I think you are the two unhappy with re-looting) have you seen a lot of instances of this in the past few weeks, or is this more relating to issues that occurred in the past?
Thanks
Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 08:03 AM |
Ive suggested this before but nothing came of it, but will see if this would appeal now and be possible to implement:
Level specific loot containers. So if opened by a character who is too high a level for the area they are in, they only get a poor item drop. If opened by someone below or equal to the level range for the area, then they have the same chance as now at getting a good item. I've listed the relevant areas below and suggested a level limit above which you shouldnt get much.
Areas with fixed items:
Maldovia abandoned house had a perma drop rainbow armour, not sure if fixed
Seeth dungeon, once per character seeth full plate
Undraeth woods, once per character silent boots
Reasonably good loot drops:
Fiirhallen Halls (hardly anyone tries it) - level 25 limit and improve the loot
Buckshire Woods (centaur chest) - level 12 limit
Scorched Earth Caverns (displacer beasts) - level 15 limit
Lynaeum catacombs (I dont go there so not sure where exactly, but one drop is -too- good) level 14 limit
Archaeological dig (fantastic dungeon crawl with high lvl drop at end) - level 14 limit
Yeti cave somewhere in the ice lands - level 15 limit
Altar at end of the frost giant caves - level 20 limit
Bodies near the owlbears in Bloodwood used to be good, not been there in ages - level 12 limit
Buckshire Cavern (black dragon lair) - level 25 limit
Maligant Cavern (blue dragon lair) - level 25 limit
Buckshire ruins, there is a crate near the brown bear and the stirges that often used to give good items. -level 10 limit
Netharu - no limit *grins evilly*
Beholder caves - level 30 limit
Big dragon lairs (deep doo doo and big blue) - no limit
Thief only loot drops:
Some nice mace behind a -very- high dc trap in lynaeum catcombs (place with all the lights - maybe once per character, not sure?)
Gigglesnorts, unique drop every time. Very tough guardian and very high dc traps and locks.
Midoran Academy - gate house. I still seem to be the only character who ever goes there though. *grins*
Not sure what the score is with PAJWT cellars, but I cleared it once to test as Sirac and loot was poor and challenge was high, with powerful traps and even more powerful critters, so dont think its a big worry. *shrugs*
If anyone wants to suggest changes to any of these, feel free. Or just use the list of places to suggest alternate changes? Just keep in mind my comments in my preceding post. :0)
And if Ive missed any of the more common places with good loot then edit them in by all means.
Personally I would like to see Buckshire Ruins cavern have a pair of huge grey renders in the final room. And a high level treasure drop there. Would be appropriate, and a very tough fight. Buckshire ruins cavern always had some good loot, just before the big split it got totally stripped of anything worthwhile by people who it seems did have a very big problem with characters looting.
If we used this system we could actually add the number of containers that gave good loot. Might be a slow process to implement but would encourage people to go to appropriate areas for their level.
Thoughts?
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 09:18 AM |
Just to clarify as some didnt understand exactly what I was proposing, this in no way changes the items that are currently dropped in any of these containers. Except if you are too high level for the area the container is in. So the current good loot, and the chance of getting an item too high for your current level, is still present.
It just stops the level 20 characters looting -everywhere- and preventing the lower level people getting good loot from areas that are more designed for them. Thus stopping the only problem I have with "looping loot runs".
*shrugs*
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 09:28 AM |
Ok, this time I will try to keep it shorter than the last time to uphold the degree of cohesion in what I want to say .
Vives and items has been an issue in the past since there was no balance. There was a huge and extensive discussion back then trying to resolve some of the biggest bottlenecks. Most important conclusion back then, was to promote the uniqueness of items through Rp and get rid of static unique drops such as some of the items Sirac describes, IE Rainbow armour in Maldovia (and the ability to do a quest over and over just for the item).
The general belief was that randomness makes the looting overall more challenging and unpredictable, unpredictability being a good thing here. People should be able to be surprised when finding an item, not expect so and so. So overall we wanted to kill the static and passive elements.
For monster areas that is easier to do than the city areas. NPC's dont usually have that urge to bash a PC into a bloody pulp. I think that part remains an issue since it is hard to find adequate solutions. The best solution is DM presence 24/7, but we won't be able to do that, utopia. Second best solution was to improve the NPC reaction in some way. Third solution might be doing something with the treasure tables, but last time they got an overhaul there were issues. As I said I am not a code guy, I really know squat about the possibilities and impossibilities.
None of these solutions are meant to discourage players to Rp. All they seek to achieve is to make gameplay a little more alive even when there is no DM around to let the monsters act appropriately or possess a guard spotting someone who is not roleplaying sneaking into a guarded area.
It does not have to be anything drastic, and no rules are involved, rules that have to be enforced, that is not the goal.
But as I said it is one of my pet peeves so I have given it a lot of thought all these years. I can see the pros and the cons and know there is no all-pleasing long-term fix for any of this so we need to be flexible. No problem with that, I too prefer DM intervention above coded game mechanics any day. That's why most of us are DM's, loving the interaction with players.
What somewhat worries me, is that the players who were mentioned in the discussion a year ago, are again mentioned. Which makes me believe you can scare some of them a thousand times, but that will not change them. People who are camping in a high level loot area is plain ridiculous, that kind of actions really has to go.
I don't know, I feel if someone connects and asks himself where he can go best to find a good item to enrich his collection, is the wrong type of thought. Instead of getting into the Rp they consciously plot a course to harvest items. Vives was not built for that type of play. I am not a fan of item hoarders and I have seen what they can do to a server. Not that vives will fall to that fate, since there are other strongpoints in this mod that counter the position of item-hoarders.
So yeah, I do see your points and go a long way in agreeing with them, but still. I always feel there is more we can do to minimize the type of behaviour in general, whether people are now actively doing it or have been doing it. But it has to be done in a way it will not cause more workload for the DM's. Which is not easy.
To Sirac's proposal, I like it, level specific containers. And the once per character option is brilliant it resolves pretty much all the problems to do with static items.
Thanks for the response,
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 10:16 AM |
All they seek to achieve is to make gameplay a little more alive even when there is no DM around to let the monsters act appropriately or possess a guard spotting someone who is not roleplaying sneaking into a guarded area.
I would actually love to see this IG, and think every thief that plays here would also, but not sure how easy it would be to implement? It would definitely necessitate changing the stats of the guards, as many have spot, listen and search set way too high. And then the scripting... *shrugs and grins*
What somewhat worries me, is that the players who were mentioned in the discussion a year ago, are again mentioned. Which makes me believe you can scare some of them a thousand times, but that will not change them. People who are camping in a high level loot area is plain ridiculous, that kind of actions really has to go.
I havent seen anyone camping high level areas in the last four to five months. So not sure who you are referring to there? Like Sol asked, if you have seen specific instances since you've been back, please point them out. As that is the kind of thing as DM's we would look to stamp out -if- it happens. I dont think it does nowadays? Even Cantor has totally cut down on the amount of looting he does.
Pickston is the only person I am aware of from a year ago that it might still apply to now, in that he goes on pure loot runs a little too often. Though even he doesnt camp places. And yes, you probably will never change him. But he is also a great rp'er and the highest level pure rogue on the server. The simple fact is Vives is not rogue friendly. There are few rogue oriented plotlines, the quests and the fire knife area has been unfinished since I started Vives, and there are few places that a rogue can be seen as essential to a party.
So I will be trying to kick start a few fire knives / night masks storylines. And maybe the US team will run a few in conjunction with me, or off their own back to get Pickston involved. Then he probably wont log on and feel he has nothing else to do.
I don't know, I feel if someone connects and asks himself where he can go best to find a good item to enrich his collection, is the wrong type of thought. Instead of getting into the Rp they consciously plot a course to harvest items. Vives was not built for that type of play. I am not a fan of item hoarders and I have seen what they can do to a server. Not that vives will fall to that fate, since there are other strongpoints in this mod that counter the position of item-hoarders.
This is probably the only part of your posts I actively disagree with. As I know I can come across strongly when disagreeing, please treat everything here as accompanied with a HUGE smiley face! *grins*
I am very, very wary of any attempt to label a particular playing style as "wrong" and "evil" and not "good enough" for Vives. That was very much the mentality that was rife before the split. Even to the extent of one of the DM's that left saying in IRC DM channel that if a player did something he deemed wrong he would happily publically humiliate them in front of as many players as possible to "teach them a lesson". *growls in disbelief*
Yes there -are- playing styles that are not suited to Vives. But I havent seen much evidence of that at all recently. Lambert to an extent and Fluffies who lasted less than a week are the only examples I could give. Even Akril it was more an ooc problem than any problem with his actual playing style. In fact if you look at players like Wicked Artist, from when they joined to where they are now, there has been a monumental improvement because they were not jumped all over for the way they played when they joined, but just encouraged to adopt a different approach, primarily through IC means. Even Arcane I personally feel is starting to go down that route as well, though I know I am in the minority of DM's there! *grins*
I have logged on, had a limited time in which to play, and thought "where can I go to have some fun and maybe get a decent item". Countless players have done that. I have also logged in and thought "oh good, I have plenty of time, lets go find some rp" or more recently "oh good, Ive got some time, lets go emotionally torment some players"!! *grins*
I am not a hoarder to the extent of Cantor, but a look in Sirac's mailbox will show he has some very nice stuff. A look at the dirtnap league will probably show I am right up in the top 10 as most of my chars for xp per hour, and reasons like testing aside, I would still probably be right up there. I could also quote numerous people who have complimented me in one way or another on my rp...course moreso since I became a DM and they wanted me to stop killing them and for some reason thought flattery might work! *chuckles*
My point though is that I am a power leveller, an item hoarder, and a roleplayer. And the vast majority of players here are each of these things to a varying degree. Some really are not, and good for them, I try to reward them as much as I can in all manner of ways as a DM if they focus solely on rp. Though they do tend to be the players that seem to have unlimited time to play here. But if we want a server that -only- has those types of players, the server will be empty in no time. And then they would leave also, because there was nobody to rp with. :0)
This is a game. It is a rp game, and the rp is paramount, yes. But that aside, as I said before people like items and they like xp, they like playing the "game".
Anyway, probably gone on at far greater length than warranted, by your off the cuff comments! Just wanted to make clear something I believe very strongly in, based on decades of rp experience in every format from online to tabletop to LRP...the worst thing a system can do is to label playing styles as "good" and "bad" rp unless in very extreme instances. It leads to all manner of ooc problems, and DM's and players alike get very fed up. :0(
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 11:35 AM |
(SNIP!)
the worst thing a system can do is to label playing styles as "good" and "bad" rp unless in very extreme instances. It leads to all manner of ooc problems, and DM's and players alike get very fed up. :0(
Cheers,
Sean
Aye, this is my biggest and pretty much only worry when the DMs feel the need to slam the rubber stamp on an issue. One of Vives' biggest assets is it's wonderfully varied player base. You could grab a handful of players at random, and find that no two are alike. I feel we should concern ourselves with violations of the core principles, than to wax on and on over specifics.
Not sure how to word what I mean but I shall try. I mean I feel we should concern ourselves with maintaining RP, a story driven world, and an overall positive atmosphere. When considering certain specifics, we should try our absolute damndest not to casually throw all encompassing decrees of "I'm right, you're wrong". This could lead to people feeling we are telling them that after all this time they are no longer "doing it right" or that WE have been abjucating it all wrong.
BAH, I am rambling and yall probably have no clue what the hell I am saying.
Shut up Vandle.
-V |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 11:38 AM |
didnt read all the posts - (short on time right now, will have some more in an hour or so)
but, what about the treasure system and the max networth?
true - it wont make people go to diffrent places, but after they reach their limit it will be quite pointless for them to run around and loot places over and over..
what do you think about setting (or lowering) such limit?
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 12:32 PM |
didnt read all the posts - (short on time right now, will have some more in an hour or so)
but, what about the treasure system and the max networth?
true - it wont make people go to diffrent places, but after they reach their limit it will be quite pointless for them to run around and loot places over and over..
what do you think about setting (or lowering) such limit?
Dens
Take away the amount of items a player can get, reduce the amount of xp a player can ever have, place ooc restrictions on these things and you are doing more harm than good in my book. Instead deal with it in an IC rp'd way, and you enhance rather than detract from the world.
The above is pretty much my thoughts on capping the amount of items a player can have. That said I made some more constructive suggestions than just saying I dont like doing that in my long waffling previous posts.
And for what its worth Vandle, yea I do get what your saying and pretty much totally agree,
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 30 Nov 2004 04:41 PM |
But those that do RP it well dont really stock loads of items..
maybe that's not true for everyone, but those that do play their chars all the time wont keep searching bodies for treasure, or raid people houses everytime they can =p
The motive for the 'crime' is ooc for most of those that keep looting/farming/howeveryouwanttocallit - letting them 'hide' behind the fact they RP it at the moment is kinda.. 'eh'.
When a player improvise something when he's caught, it might be RP but it doesnt mean he didnt loot - and then he's punished IC, but actually gets an ooc reward.
I think removing the amount of items and gold from the economy is good and should happen -
it's all nice when someone carries as much as he can.. but when someone just got tens of bags that he can hold more than a pack ox with.. that's a problem.
I as well like to collect items but there should be a limit - and Tom has several bags with items,
I dont like it and IMO it would be better if I wont have them, but I am not going to throw them away while others have such amounts and even higher.
so I think reducing the general amount of items would be nice.
-----------------------------
You want challange?
create a complex of areas that will have epic traps - only the best of the best rogues could unlock it.
make the area unsleepable (because every time you try something happens) and put a lot of cursing/poisoning/etc creatures there.
So the party will need a rogue, and a good healer.
add a few monsters that would barely take dmg from physical attack - that's where you'll need a mage to enter the battle.
and some spell resistant monsters with gigantic claws that will keep the clerics to healing, and the fighters to fighting.
at the end place a unique item (the area will be opened every month or so [at a full moon or something like that]) that wont be sellable, and they'll have to share it somwhow.
of course - you can add locked doors and riddles at the path of the chars -
things like levers that need to be pulled at the correct order (that will depend on the riddle written on the wall)
just some ideas for an epic place that will require a party to actually have a strategy other than 'charge'.
when i'll have time.. and I think in a few monthes I should have - I can try and make something like that.. but till then - who knows =p
Dens - *throws thoughts* |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 01 Dec 2004 03:07 AM |
Dens & Rul, I am still interested to know who you think is causing this problem recently.
Perhaps a better solution is just that we tell people there is a limit to the number of bags they can use, ox packs or magical, say no more than 5 per character? And also no more than 5 per container?
That would hopefully also help to reduce lag too (which is the only reason I personally would approve of it).
I don't really like items value limits per character (as it is impossible to know what things are worth).
- Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 01 Dec 2004 11:22 AM |
"Perhaps a better solution is just that we tell people there is a limit to the number of bags they can use, ox packs or magical, say no more than 5 per character? And also no more than 5 per container?"
With the sheer amount of ingredients required for crafting I think a limit of 5 bags for a pc would be very bad. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 01 Dec 2004 11:57 AM |
then reduce the weight reducment -
so people could carry more of the 'light' ingrediants.. but wont be able to fill everything with items and still walk around freely.
also - maybe some of the ingrediants' weight could be reduced.. I dont know which/howmuch but maybe.
and I think that if people would pay others to help them carry their things - it would be more realistic than someone carrying a load of three poeple on his back..
besides - we could lower the amount of an ox rent, so crafters would use them.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 01 Dec 2004 12:04 PM |
or, enforce weight restrictions so that a mage with the strength of 10 cannot carry a ton of weight.
that would probably be best.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 01 Dec 2004 12:06 PM |
or, enforce weight restrictions so that a mage with the strength of 10 cannot carry a ton of weight.
so he'll work harder and get gold - and eventually get his inventory filled with malar bags
or lesser bags.. it's would still be the same.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 01 Dec 2004 12:41 PM |
"besides - we could lower the amount of an ox rent, so crafters would use them."
The problem with that is a flock of chickens can take out an oxen. And as I recall from long long ago using an ox they seem to want to attack things when there is battle. And well they are not very good at it. and thats the bandits in the plains. What about most ores that are truly dangerous? an Oxen would have no chance to survive no matter how you tried to protect it.
The oxen are big fat weaklings who think they can fight, who may as well have a big "Hey kill me here" neon sign flashing on both sides. |
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Re: DM's: Looping Loot runs
Posted: 01 Dec 2004 01:34 PM |
you can leave the pack ox outside of the mines, and drag the ore to him =p
well.. you could do something about the Oxen's AI I guess.. and wizards would be able to make it invisible (problem is they might not be able to find it later =p )
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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