| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Display using:
|
|
Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 04:59 PM |
First of all, I've been on this server for 9 months now and I must say that I'm rather impressed with the depth and complexity of the crafting system. I would like to thank whomever developed it, as they placed a great deal of work into it. However, I have a few critiques of it.
- Miner's pickaxe still requires a martial weapon prof to use, meaning that mining is rather limited to only a few classes. I know it seems silly to think that a wizard would go mining, but it should at least be left open to the possibility. I read a while back that this would be solved, so I was hoping to nudge it along.
- Funny thing about enchanting bronze weapons and shields, they don't exist! Nor can one make them. There is no option for bronze construction of anything of which I know. It goes from tin to copper to iron in the metal crafting menu. This makes the option of enchanting acid properties completely useless.
- As far as I know, there are only 3 options for creating shields in the armour crafting skill. Small, Medium, and Large. Yet, the enchanting statue has shield names of which I have never before seen (except for being Copper, Bronze, and Iron)- which means that one can't enchant shields either.
- Fletching - The effort it takes to put a simple hooked arrow together, the constructing the arrow shafts, feathers, and arrow heads (which take even longer b/c of god knows what things a tinker has to go through to make it), are not even remotely cost effective compared to the product. 20 arrows, each doing 1 extra point of XX damage each is rather paltry when one can get 99 of 1d6 extra XX damage for a couple thousand gold, give or take. If store owners and chests contain the more powerful caliber of weaponry, why can a wood crafter not make something comparable that is worth their grueling effort over the bench?
- Bows - Can there be any crafted bows that are not made completely obsolete by a low-level quest. *possible spoiler* I'm sure almost everyone has completed the quest in which one obtains the Bow of the Ferein (modified). It can be done at about 3rd or 4th level (of any class), without serious risk to one's life, and one obtains quite a powerful bow as a result (longbow, +2 attack, Massive Crit: 1d6). If I spend a great deal of time wood crafting and obtain some Mahogany and Oak, then work them to their correct forms (no easy task), then I find someone who can make sinew bowstring and bone fragments from an animal and be willing to trade for it, I must then combine these elements to make the arduous Oak/Mahogany Composite Longbow, which is not as powerful(Longbow, +2 attack, Massive crit: 1d4) as what I could get by completing a simple quest. It is not one of the easier bows to make, rather on the upper-middle level of crafting difficulty, percentage-wise The weaker one requires a much greater personal investment, which turns out to be wasted when you realize you already have something better. I can't imagine anyone wanted to trade for the crafted bow, as they already have the Fereinian, or perhaps something better. The only thing one is left to do is to sell it, but not everyone wants to sell their prized works. I suppose one could give it to someone, but they'll just end up selling it or keeping it over their fireplace. Perhaps the crafted one could be stronger, or distinct enough to make it worth one's while. That, or weaken the modified Fereinian so as to make the crafted objects more of a prize, emotionally and monetarily.
- Metal Working - referring in part to the above, in that bronze weapons, armour, shields, and helms don't have the option of being made. This means that the entirety of the acid enchanting process is moot. Not only that, but the silver-coating process requires bronze weapons, invalidating the braziers as well.
- Jewelry Crafting - Of the objects I have used, I think that the +1 Ability score rings look worthwhile in their crafting, but some of the (amulets I think) are rather silly to take the time and effort to construct in that they only give +1 to a saving throw vs. a specific effect (such as death, or mind-affecting spells, or poison). Let's think about this for a moment. First, one must find the gems required, mine them without being killed, cut them, polish them (with some help from an alchemist), then find someone with enchanted metal ingots (a task within themselves, involving mining,smelting, alchemy, and enchanting-while surving) trade for them, get them to enchant your cut and polished gemstones(needing more alchemy), and THEN construct a shiny object that grants a +1 to saves vs. X. Something about that just doesn't seem worth the effort. Better to go buy, hell, find an object that does better, costs less time, less effort, less money, and less risk to one's life.
-gems- would it be a possibility to just crush a gem in order to obtain a large volume of its dust? Sure, one wouldn't have the benefit of using the gem for crafting, but now all those pesky spellcasters won't be knocking you around every five minutes to ask whether or not you can get any dust of XX. You can just trade them for it, tell em' to buzz off, and be on your merry way. Also, what about the possibility of using gems or jewelry found in the game world (non-crafted items) and importing them into part of the creation process. It's strange to find a ruby, then wonder where it came from so that you can go mine it, cut it, and polish it rather than use the cut and polished one that is already in your hand.
- Areas, new and old - If it would be possible, could we place more CNRs in the new areas to promote more exploration and trade within those regions. Otherwise it just makes everyone feel that they have to traverse (really pretty and elaborate) extra areas to get where they're going. If possible, try to return some of the CNRs that were in areas beforehand, such as Midor Outskirts and Buckshire. Oh, and where are the Ash trees? I've found every type of lumber except for them (Hickory, Oak, Yew, Mahogany), and no one in the world seems to know where they are. It's a conspiracy I tell you!
Finally, I object to the racial restrictions on crafting. I find it rather odd that a dwarf can be incredible at the Smelting, Weapon, and Armour Crafting arts, but never be as skilled as a man is at gem crafting or brewing, to which I think the dwarf would be well acclimated. I think that everyone should be able to reach level 20 in crafting. One's race shouldn't restrict one to specific roles. If Vives is trying to keep open roleplaying possibilities, it does not want to restrict them by saying that :All dwarves are good Miners/Armourers/Weaponsmiths and bad at everything else, or all halflings are sneaky, theiving, Gem-crafters that like shiny objects, or all gnomes are foolish Tinkerers--because they're not. Unless of course, you're a *racist*. :P
Someone once told me that Vives was modeled after the LotR, and the relationships between those races and their crafts. I don't agree with that, but even in assuming it, one should have an open crafting system. Elves were master crafters of weaponry just as much as dwarves. One did not see dwarves asking elves to assist them in enchanting their weapons, or the elves asking the dwarves to make them weapons upon which they would use their magicks, they made their own and kept things localized. I could just as easily see a dwarven runecaster (wizard) wanting to enchant, but having a glass ceiling that limits them from excelling to their greatest potential. If a character works hard to craft, they should be able to reach the same crafting level as any other. From my understanding each rank in crafting adds 10% to one's success rate, so the difference between a master crafter (20 ranks) and someone with 15 ranks is 50%, 100% if you have a maximum of 10 ranks. Not only is the difficulty a factor, but a certain level of crafting must be reached in order to make even certain options available to try.
Just my two cents. Maybe today's update will fix some things. Let me know your thoughts, and whether or not I'm correct with regard to my statistics. |
Do not ask of them questions. You will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know. |
|
  |
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 05:36 PM |
I have to agree wholeheartedly with the above critique regarding woodcrafting, especially fletching, which is so hard, it's really a two-person job. With the current game balance as it is, and current quest rewards as they are, there's absolutely no reason for anyone to want to buy what us woodcrafters have to offer. The elemental arrows might be worth making if I could find any of the ingredients - bag of fire?.
Right now, the only reason I continue making bows is for the RP value and for funds to purchase arrows - that's right - purchase arrows. You would think a high level ranger/AA would be able to make her own arrows... : ( As suggested above, it would be nice if what we woodcrafters could make had something unique to offer that made our bows/arrows valuable additions to ranged fighters' arsenals.
Sorry for the rant. : )
Ala
P.S.: I've found a single Ash tree in all my wanderings througout Vives. Ask me IG. ; ) |
Alarwen Emeria - Patience and time...
Ranger/Sorc/AA
Jessminda (companion) |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 07:01 PM |
| As for the quest that gives that particular bow, I don't believe that just any 3rd level character can single-handledly do that quest. I completed it with a group of three and I believe it only gave one bow. Please correct if I'm wrong. |
-Kalos
"When in doubt, tell the truth. It will amaze most people, delight your friends, and confuse your enemies" -Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 07:05 PM |
Oh yea and I just wanted to say that I agree craftings tough I tried tailoring a bit (I'm new to the server) but I wasn't strong enough to continually carry all those ingredients around, so most of my tailoring time was spent running back and forth. (BTW, I miss the bags of stuff that used to be by the boat outside of Port Royale )My suggestion to would-be crafters....plan on spending a lot of time IG in order to be able to make anything. Not a complaint, as I think the tailoring system is great, I just don't have that kind of time to invest. |
-Kalos
"When in doubt, tell the truth. It will amaze most people, delight your friends, and confuse your enemies" -Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 07:37 PM |
| tough, yes. I don't have a problem with tough. It should be tough. The problem comes in whether or not it is worth your while. Of all the ones that do create on the comparative product-to-effort ratio, tailoring is one of them. Quite a few things can be made in that department. Mmmm...boat, how I miss you so. Well, one should get one bow per (insert acquired quest item here) from my understanding of it. It's not too tough to grab. Warrior classes can take on all the creatures with little problem. Cleric/druid can summon and heal his way in. Wiz/sorc summon/invis. Rogue sneak. Monk fight/sneak. Bard might require some strategery. Seriously, he fights with music. Like bringing an air guitar to a gunfight. |
Do not ask of them questions. You will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 08:01 PM |
Bard might require some strategery. Seriously, he fights with music. Like bringing an air guitar to a gunfight.
Hey, hey, hey. Bards are also very sensitive...Bennigan has enough of an inferiority complex as it is, so watch it, bub.
What 'air' guitar? It's a REAL guitar, man. Well, at least a lute. And the weapon is knowledge and inspiration....and a bit of charismatic spell-casting and a handful of roguish abilities don't hurt either.
Just remember, historically, music has been used in battle for millennia. *Tries to look tough, fails miserably, and instead plucks out a cool riff on his lute and looks smug.* |
Willom Wilde--Actor, Playwrite, Head of Wilde's Vials, and fearful of all things cheesy
Califus Sarten--Mercenary for Hire
Bennigan Songsinger--Brooding bard. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 10:32 PM |
I generally agree with what's been said in the above posts. Except that I prefer crafted bows to ones that can be found by other means. Why? ... because they are made by people I know and respect, that is special to me. Last night my character Kandra had the good fortune to follow Alarwen into Ferein and find a bow for sale crafted by her. Now whenever someone asks about her bow, she will show it proudly saying it was made by the famous archer Alarwen. That is more important to me than extra damage or a better to hit roll.
I would still like to see a merchant that buys crafted items that is persistant, so that these wonderful items made by our friends are not lost at every reset.
-Ken |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 11:22 PM |
(BTW, I miss the bags of stuff that used to be by the boat outside of Port RoyaleSad )
Have you looked a little harder? It's still there.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 16 Nov 2004 11:24 PM |
Valid concerns all.
It is a known problem and is on my to-do list.
Unfortunately, I have a lot of things on my to-do list.
I have a couple of things left to do that are higher priority, and then I promise, I will get back to making the crafted items a little more in line with what can be found IG
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 17 Nov 2004 02:42 AM |
Thanks pd, just wanted to bring up the topic so that we could gather an opinion on the subject and voice our concerns. I have no doubt that there are a great deal of things on that list of yours, so I'm am very pleased to hear that you are keeping these concerns in mind. Keep up the excellent work.
to Tsu7, I agree that the aesthetic value of one's crafted items is a great value indeed. It is something that one can make that is all one's own. One obtains a certain personal connection with one's crafted items that makes them stand out. A great deal of pride in oneself and one's work, and one's hope is gained through the creation process.
However, if I might use an analogy: You're holding a knife that you crafted yourself. It has an incredibly sharp blade that has been acid etched onto the flat, symbols of your family history, it is perfectly balanced, with a sharksin wrapped handle, and a tiger's eye adorning the pommel. A one-shot-one-kill lazer rifle lays next to you, fully loaded. Outside, there is an enormous galactic terror beast implacably charging your home. Which weapon do you choose? Clearly the knife is of enormous personal and aesthetic value. When compared to the value of one's life, one is going to choose the weapon that gets the job done well, rather than the pretty sentimental one that probably won't get the job done. I know that that was an extreme analogy, but it was just to illustrate my point.
I in fact, hold onto a few of my crafted items because of their personal value, but rarely do I use them. My other possessions make the crafted ones obsolete.
I apologize if this isn't making much sense, my medication is kicking in. Oh, and pd if you need any help, I would be happy to offer you mine. Though I must admit, the toolset to me is like a child walking into a candy store. |
Do not ask of them questions. You will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 17 Nov 2004 07:24 AM |
| Just a quick comment, mind you i'm not crafting on vives. But on previous servers with CNR you had to combine a chunk or tin and a chunk of copper to make bronze. Whether or not that happens here i have no idea. But just throwing it out for you guys. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 17 Nov 2004 07:41 AM |
Yeah, you can still make bronze here.. or rather.. you can make bronze again.... Bronze was removed from the system because it was deemed "primitive" or something.... then it was readded when some jewelers and such weren't able to make half their wares... Bronze armor and weaponry is still not able to be made...*shrugs* which I'm fine with, by why copper is still in the Weapon and armor system, remains a mystery to me. As for the "not being able to make Acid weapons" because of the lack of bronze weapons.... the Lightning and the fire weapons both use "Versions" of "Copper" and "Iron" weapons that no longer exist in Vives, so even if you make a copper sword, and put it in the enchanting altar, it will still say "0 of 1 Copper Longsword" or some such. The same goes for The shields. Since the various crafting systems have major inconsistancies with eachother, and with even themselves on various levels, not to mention inconsistancies with the treasure balance of the Vives of Today, the entire Crafting system is going through massive overhaul.... and this will become evident once PD gets back from his crazy vacation.
In the mean time, I like to work with what's there... Crafting makes good RP... and it makes you famous too *grins*. |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 17 Nov 2004 12:38 PM |
In reading over my earlier post, I think it sounds a little harsh. I love crafting, and I love crafting on Vives. I would continue to do it even if nothing changed. The RP value for Ala goes far beyond the actual products of her labors and any gold they generate. (Thanks for the vote of confidence though, Ken) That being said, I still think it would be nice if crafted products could have something really and tangibly unique or personal about them.
Here's what I'm proposing (ideas to pick and choose from, not necessarily a whole package)
-stat boost to upper-range crafted items that impact fighting abiliy like +dex, +str
-stat boost on most crafted weapons that reflect the prestige of owning one like +charisma
-other interesting class bonuses like skill boosts or added feats
These kinds of things are routinely available on found items or those available for purchase. They must be coming from somewhere, why not from player crafters? Other basic ideas might help elevate the prestige of crafting both for crafter and buyer...
-ability to customize the look of one's own crafted items on first creation with little or no extra cost or low failure rate (think about this more as customization during production rather than after modification)
-ability to modify item's description to reflect artistic embelishment or crafter's signiture
Finally, to address the issue of high level crafting, it would be nice if a new top range of items with elemental damage/protections were added. This could be done within the regular crafting tracks or added as enchantment of base items. Oh, if this type of enchanting exists, please ignore this comment and someone please tell me how it works... and if it does exist, can we ensure it can be used on as many item types as possible?
I have more ideas, but I'm out of time. I hope this at least sparks some more discussion. Thanks!
Ala |
Alarwen Emeria - Patience and time...
Ranger/Sorc/AA
Jessminda (companion) |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 22 Dec 2004 03:11 PM |
There is also something in the PHB (pg 79) about creating certain alloy ingots when combining certain ingots. Does this refer to Nuggets and the fact that one can create bronze (copper and tin) and gold (2 gold and tin) ingots, or is it referring to Ingots being combined in the forge to make alloys? Even if one assumes that "Ingots" should be replaced with "Nuggets" in the text, the context implies that there are other alloys possible than the simple ones previously described. The recipes do not show up on the list to create, nor can I imagine any way in which one could initate the process without the forge dialogue options, so I am forced to conclude that certain alloys have "secret" recipes. If so, I'm going to start studying chemistry again. Time to make some Ti 6.4--twice as strong as steel, but 45% lighter, a tensile strength of 150,000 psi, used to make military aircraft, and jewelry. SFBA. Heck, might combine some iron and a lot of copper, make some "Miracle Metal." Or maybe, glassteel?!?!
Can anyone comment on this? I'm sure Daimon has a clue *wink wink*. |
Do not ask of them questions. You will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 22 Dec 2004 08:16 PM |
*sigh*
I think this is the remains of the Original Stock CNR system... the only remanents of which can be found in the Enchanting system (IE, non craftable Kite shields and such)
Originally... with all present resources considered... Steel was created by mixing 1 ingot of tin for 2 ingots iron. I think that when the PHB has been revised... this was never changed...
Now, however, you cannot even make Bronze weapons, but Bronze, thanks to several players' (myself included) requests, is now in the system again... due to its large function in Gem crafting, tinkering... arrowmaking.. and so on.
As far as Secret Recipe alloys, I've been voting for this for a long time, and have a few in mind... but as far as I know.. there are none in game (Other than Say, Silver coated weapons and Titanium tipped weapons... which aren't all that secret..)
and as for "Twice as strong as steel", Steel is a very broad term applying to any Ferrous blend of iron and carbon, along with a colorful yet miniscule amount of several other minerals. Depending on how it is tempered, which ingredients are present, and how it is made (Cast, folded, or otherwise) it can be of all sorts of "strengths". Remember... They do use "Tool grade" Steel to Cut steel...
And as for Ti 6.4, remember, I believe Daimon is the only Smith in vives to have made Titanium tipped weapons, and since then, all his military aircraft and Golf Clubs are made out of his special enchanted blend of Titanium, created from a composite annealing of several secret carbon grains, enchanting ingredients, mineral precipitates, ...
Stop my at any time..... |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 22 Dec 2004 08:24 PM |
Yes, reading on in the same section of the player's manual... I see they say "Titanium tipped Weapons" Are +2.. which is definitely from the stock system... Originally.... Copper was worthless.... Bronze was +1 ab, Iron was +1 enchantment... Steel was +1 70% weight Reduction... and Titanium tipped steel was +2.... End of the line... All other resources... (Mithril, Adamantium) were only for the armor system. Though I didn't play in Vives when this system was in place (My Estimates tell me it was sometime during summer of 2003) I played a pre Daimon .... well... Goblin version of Daimon who was a Millitary strategist and Smith for the goblin army on the server...
It was interesting.. because I played most of the PW underground (Even though it was a surface server like Vives) and Did an extensive amount of Smithing before vives.... This was the system they used there. Originally... I joined Vives because I got bored during work on the server (I got promoted to builder cause they liked me) and decided to jump in on some server all my friends were playing on every once in a while... Then... I ended up abandoning all my duties as a builder, and the server entirely... and joining Vives... *shrug* My first Character was an Elven version of My goblin.... and I named him Daimon.... (only my goblin decided to switch majors from Rapier to Battleaxe halfway through his career((for mining)).... but Daimon stuck with the rapier.)
Yeah.... Now you know everything you totally didn't want to. |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 22 Dec 2004 08:45 PM |
Lol
Dont you just love him |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 22 Dec 2004 10:38 PM |
Oh, I see you are student of metals as well! Excellent. Though I do believe you are more educated than myself. Yeah, made that comment about bronze way up above about a month ago. Hopefully some stuff is being worked upon. Blast that PHB! It just built up my hopes, and now they are crushed into dust!
I do think that the notion of secret recipes is very interesting, adding to a certain flavor of characters experimenting with different alloys (or other crafts) to have different properties, but I would first like the system to have all the kinks worked out and the exigent circumstances put to rest before implimenting some of the wilder ideas. (note: isn't "ferrous blend of iron..." a redundancy?) I'm referring to the type of steel used to make girder and rail (from Pittsburgh, PA), though I do not recall its name (might be A36?). Ti 6.4 couldn't be made anyway, as it requires aluminum and vanadium, which I do not foresee being implemented. Of course, that's just the chemistry talking. Anything is possible on Vives!!
Golf clubs? Nah. A shovel will suffice. |
Do not ask of them questions. You will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Crafting
Posted: 22 Dec 2004 11:38 PM |
You guys are going to hate me ... but I know absolutely nothing about Metals what so ever... No metals in High School... I took Graphic Design and Art...
The closest thing I have to Metal experience is the CAM (Computer Assisted Manufacturing... Computer program guided metals and wood shop pretty much) class I took senior year. The only way I got in was from the optional Math Prerequisite. Everything I've mentioned about metals, both IG and out has all been... for the most part, BS. *grins*
Alright... so.. whoever just had their dreams shattered, can throw tomatoes now... luckily I have this Zinc coated Shield I made to resist the Acid in the tomatoes from corroding the protective layer of annealed aluminum, and to prevent oxidation.
So Now that we know I am hardly an authority on the subject.... I should mention that if I had it my way... I'd have EVERY recipe be secret... and you wouldn't see anymore weapons being made out of 2 ingredients. You'd have to collect them from a variety of potential sources, and learn the procedures required from a talented and established smith.. like say... Daimon Rabianara... For a price of course....
your very SOUL!
Anyways..... |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|