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The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:24 AM |
I just recently started playing this server exclusively. I've picked up playing the character "Shard Aerinmane", and in doing so, have found it ungodly difficult to even begin making anything of my character.
Originally, I started him off as a fighter archer, with the intention of eventually making him an arcane archer. Naturally, this meant that to level, he'd have to fight alot of things. Simple, I thought to myself.. he IS a fighter. However, I quickly noticed that.. archers are terrible unless they have someone to hide behind. Now, I'm not sure if you've noticed this but.. there's almost no low levels. At all. I've seen one other person who was about 3 levels higher than me. I hunted with him on a few occasions, but he's not always around, nor do our characters have a great reason to be around each other. Usually, it's just a large number of 15+ characters who I run into occasionally. They make for great roleplay, and so far, I've had alot of fun just taking in everything each player has obviously contributed to the "storyline" of this world... but they're no help at all to a newbie character. I basically gave up on my archer because I wasn't having fun with all the deaths I kept taking(some of them were VERY embarassing.. a vengful spirit landed 2 crits in a row, to knock a level 4 fighter out, then hit me again.. mind you, it only hits on a 19+).
Sooo.. I started a more "solo" oriented class. The wizard. Some people would disagree that this is a good solo class, but, having a familiar with 5/- damage reduction and regeneration tends to make soloing pretty easy. But even this has proven frustrating! My familiar doesn't die too often, but when it does, the increased damage on death and loss of constution almost always knocks me out. Which is fatal. Not to mention, gaining experience is next to impossible. Combat gives 10 on average, 30 at best. Casting is strange.. sometimes it gives you experience, but usually it doesn't. And I don't even KNOW what "skill" experience is gained from, I've tried practising quite a few different skills.
I recently went on a.. erm.. doomed expedition with many of the above mentioned high levels. I thought "Maybe I'll get decent experience for traveling to new areas". We went down to a very dangerous underground city, killed tons of spiders and Atalans, and.. I walked away with about a thousand experience. A modest amount, considering how many times those high levels(and myself) died. Not to mention, one of the DMs kept throwing a 20/20 wizard/cleric at us(Personally, I thought that was pretty.. erm.. unfair? I don't see why the Queen herself would be launching an attack on a group of explorers). That got us killed a few times. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the adventure, but all in all.. it was so unrewarding, I doubt I'd ever risk something like that again.
I know this probably sounds something like a flame, but I don't mean it to be. I'm merely a bit concerned at how difficult it is to start off. Some people would say "Well it's a RP server, it's not all about action".. but, even in situations where there has been alot of great roleplay, it's barely even recognized. Naturally, I'm sure many of those high level characters went through many of the same trials.. but chances are, they actually had more people around to help them.
Any thoughts on this...? |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:37 AM |
Naturally, I'm sure many of those high level characters went through many of the same trials.. but chances are, they actually had more people around to help them.
Any thoughts on this...?
Calmeir for one did not have many people around him. He, just a few months ago, celebrated his 1 year anniversary on Vives, and when he was a fledgling fighter the server had a max of about 8 players, with the average closer to 3. Things were a lot different then though (crafting gave oodles more XP) So soloing wasn't quite as harsh. I think sort of the general idea is that you shouldn't try soloing in this world... Starting off you theoretically should be able to make it to around level 3 or something like that without even having to look at an enemy.
If possible try asking for jobs or rumors of people needing help. Most of the higher level people could likely point you in the direction of a scripted quest that will hopefully not be beyond you. These quests often give some pretty decent xp and item rewards. Of course it always does help to have people on that are closer to your own level, but obviously as you've noticed that isn't always available. I have noticed a few newer people on, but perhaps you do not play when they do... I guess I'm not sure how starting people off could be made better.
In my opinion I was thinking it was already farely balanced. Getting to about level 4-5 isn't too difficult . Though, I am pretty tired right now and don't really know what I am typing... so i'll let someone else take over... |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:41 AM |
The DMs do try to recognise good RP. Admittedly, I can't be on much- but when I am, one of the *main* things I do is sit, watch, mayby possess an NPC- but the core is just watching and giving RP XP.
I won't really comment on the Wiz/Clr 20/20, I'm sure the DM had a good reason, though I'd agree it would be unfair to use such a NPC against a party with a low level involved.
Onto the rest- it's not a flame, it's very fair. We do have quite a number of newer low level players on GMT at the moment, and so if you play then you may meet up with them and have a party that way.
If not, don't worry. Vives /isn't/ about leveling, and the fact that you're a low level won't penalise your RP in any way. You won't be the powerhouse of a party for quite some time- the average is to take around 150-200 hours of play time to reach lvl 12, IIRC. However, the characters and DMs won't tell you to piss of because you're a low level or anything similar.
Therefore, my best advice to you is to just not worry about your level. :)
There are a number of areas that a lvl 4-5 can go to alone, if you're worried about soloing. But, and I hate to put on the RP Nazi uniform (And current player demeographics aside, heh) Vives wasn't designed to be played by a solo PC. Therefore, it will be difficult.
-Barnas |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:48 AM |
While it's true enough that getting to 3 or 4 is relatively easy, I highly doubt it could be done without combat unless you were a bard. I've traveled extensively(60% modifier), and from everything I've seen on my warrior.. crafting gives almost no experience at all. Not to mention, I never can find anything to craft with, or instructions on how to craft in the first place...
I know that leveling isn't everything, and I also know that you don't hit level 20 in a day(would be terrible if you did), but I do like to feel progress in my character. A weak character can't do much. Not even as far as roleplay goes. It's hard to believe a level 1 character talking about his "past" where he got said scar in a battle with some powerful creature he defeated(just an example). |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:48 AM |
Ok, there is only one part of your post I really disagree with, and that's that other players had it easier. Its always been the way on vives, the learning curve is steep, it really is. I shudder to think how often I died when I started out...and I had the advantage of nearly always having a travelling companion cos I played alongside my wife. Other than that would definitely have had to solo. And Im sorry you're finding it hard. All I can really advise is patience...it is so worth sticking with it.
A few other pointers:
I know for a fact it is possible to get a wizard...or any character in fact to approximately level 6 or 7 without fighting hardly anything. Certainly nothing too dangerous. Once you've learnt your way around a bit, it -does- become a lot more manageable.
There are a lot of quests in and around Port Royale, and in and around Midor. Stick to searching out every single one of those. And read area descriptions...they really do offer a great clue for when you might be getting in over your head.
Wizard xp. Wizards get xp for the first spell they cast approximately every 5 mins IG. And they get xp for -every- spell they cast when in actual combat. Dont exploit that too much...but its fair to keep it in mind when playing a mage.
Skill xp is for rogues using pick lock skill. And is a very good source of xp...but totally dries up eventually. Exploration xp can be so useful if you are cautious and ready to run away. Believe me the number of times Im willing a player to please for heaven sake run away when just watching as a DM!
Enjoy the rp and be patient. DM's will notice you if your rp'ing a lot, and reward you accordingly. Its just it takes time for us to see you...and no you wont always be rewarded...but the rp in and of itself with this community is a great reward.
There are other characters starting out but yes it will take time to find them and meet up...again it just takes patience. And remember, as long as you are within 5 levels of each other the xp penalties are not that bad...definitely not as bad as in normal NWN.
It sounds like you've had some bad luck with dice rolls too...but thats the wonderful NWN number generator..believe me it happens to us all. Creatures that need a 20 to hit...yet roll 4 of them in a row killing me with 2 criticals! Yep, it happens. :0)
Get to lvl 7 or 8 and most classes begin to have a much greater chance of survivability. But Vives is, and is meant to be, an incredibly dangerous world. Even the highest level chars on the server point blank refuse to go some places without a small army at their back...its never meant to be easy. But yes, when starting out it can seem too difficult. Hope the above helps some.
As for the quest you did...not me so Im not going to comment on specifics. But think it was a very high level group, and the whole idea of some areas being too dangerous to ever treat lightly came into play. A near legendary group of adventurers approaching the city of the atalan might well attract attention they never, ever wanted. Most DM quests are not like that...give us time and I hope you will see that. It is very difficult to cater to extremes of low and high lvl chars on the same group though...so you do need to get some lvls under your belt or otherwise be very good at running away! :0)
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:50 AM |
Hah, that's all I really cared to hear, Barnas.
I was just making sure I hadn't run into another "Narfell" type server.. where the DMs threw massive creatures at low level characters for little or no reason..
..or you can only level when a DM wants you to.
..with a community full of elitist fanatics who think their.. *coughs*
Err...
Sorry, bad memories. O.o
Edit:
Oh, and thanks for the further input/suggestions from everyone else. I really appreciate it. =)
I haven't found any quests so far, but I will keep a sharper look out for them now. I've been a bit afraid to enter buildings in Port Royale, as one of the first ones I entered was a "Thug House", and err.. I didn't have time to run away. (4 hit points and all...) |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:55 AM |
While it's true enough that getting to 3 or 4 is relatively easy, I highly doubt it could be done without combat unless you were a bard.
Honestly, just to re-inforce the above...I have a mage/rogue who is level 6 and a complete pacifist. He has never killed any living creature...apart from a solitary rat once that the stupid ai made me auto-attack and kick to death. So it is possible I promise...if I start playing him again I could still get more levels with him...but now it would be a lot slower than a combatant character, however those 1st 6 levels did not take an exceptionally long time.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 06:36 AM |
Yeah I'll add that I'm playing possibly the most timid character (norbert, an apprentice wizard) you could ever imagine on the server. I'm lvl 3 already I think (or is that 2? - I can't remember) but I'm not actually looking at my xp or level, I'm just playing in Vives. Any levels gained are a bonus, and if you don't xp watch then it's always a pleasant suprise when you level, not a dissappointment when you don't.
I'm pretty fortunate that I've mostly seen characters around lvl 3-4 when I'm on. There are quite a few lvl 15 or so, but just in the last session I met 3 other characters who were lvl 3 at the most. |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 06:42 AM |
Any levels gained are a bonus, and if you don't xp watch then it's always a pleasant suprise when you level
That happened to me tonight, was RPing, having fun, then noticed finally after lord knows how long that I had gained a level lol |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 07:13 AM |
Vives is pretty tough, I think, but also fair. It is easy to get to level 3 without killing a single thing - and with me playing a bard 1/rogue 1/fighter 1 currently, the modifiers on my XP gain mean that it's a bit convoluted, but I still managed it even with that, very easily, and without having to step into more then 3 or 4 areas where there were monsters - which Cora squeaked at then ran from! :P
Beyond level 3 and I can see it getting much tougher to level, but in all honesty I don't really care. And Vives has been the first place I've been that it really has felt like all gain levels fairly equally, and besides, in RP, level really and truly doesn't matter at all. In fact for my RP it suits me more that Cora's a total wuss, because of her character and personality.
*wonders idly if Grey = Xalm Grey* |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 07:29 AM |
I was the one responsible for that "high level" group getting together.
You were there, and introduced to us by Macha.
I/We have no reason to exclude someone as IC we dont know about "levels". Macha introduced you favourably, and that was enough for me/us.
It was a high level group, and the area we went to was a high level area. Not the sort of place you want to wander around alone. I apologize if it was not fun for you, but I would rather have you with us seeing parts of Vives that people dont often see (and get pasted with the rest of us) rather than snub you because you are of "insufficient level".
Even when a low level character travels with a high level group, there are still things they can do (besides being an Atalan archery target), such as healing others, or warning of something the others have not seen (thanks Perin, you little wyrm you!).
OTH, you can gain levels without, or with very little combat. I have a lv6 character who reached that level rather quickly through exploration and quests alone.
As for crafting, there are many characters familiar with crafting that would willingly give you pointers to start you out, or even an apprenticeship. Ask IG. Some of those higher level characters might know something else other than getting killed by Atalan.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 08:04 AM |
This might help you ig if you want to go somewhere, Ask people about the place they will tell you whats there on the whole people in vives are helpfull and friendly, also find clerics and mages and ask them if you can have a spell cast on you.
I know that Calia might charge you some gold at the moment but some spells might be really helpfull. Or ask people for potions of Barkskin which is a life saver. I have met you ingame and your rp is very good. I have a 10th level theif and he dies all the time most times trying to help his friends so get used to it looks at the dirtnap leauge and your see what i am saying.
Otherwise just play several characters so you have a spare to play while you wait to see if anyone finds / raises your dead character. Obviously without using that spare character to in any way interact with the fact your other character is dead.
[[another DM misread part of this post and thought it was advocating metagaming. We realise it wasnt but have edited the last two sentences to make what Carlton presumably intended a little bit clearer. Sorry for any confusion or offense caused. Cheers, Sirac]]
I look forward to seeing you ingame and i hope that you will start having a bit more luck :D
Carlton |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 09:49 AM |
Explore. Explore. Explore.
Perin was able to attain level five without much fighting at all, and then six with just a small bit. Also, I was there during that excursion with the Queen of the Atalan (I still don't know if I'm spelling that right.) It was a lot of fun, even for a low level character who couldn't do much but have a bit of fun flying around in wrymling form.  I died a few times, but it never took more than five minutes to be raised from that state. The DM also informed me (as I had to leave early and had inquired) that this was a bit of a server stress-test on his part, hence all the flashy graphics and what-not. Experience wise, I made at least 2000 points of it. Role playing and exploring add up, dontcha think? :)
Anyways, that's my two, rusty pennies.
Grae |
Perin - Underage, Overthinking Druid
Farrah Centarius - I've gotta chip on me shoulder
Chandra - Desert Woman
"An easy life doesn't teach us anything. In the end it's the learning that matters: what we've learned and how we've grown." - Richard Bach |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 12:19 PM |
Hi Grey...........
I was the one who was summoning the Queen of the Atalan....... originally with the intent of talking with players, but then the party all tried to kill her, so she got a bit mad ;)
I'm looking into lower levels and have been in game with a new low level character myself to test a few things......... as a result We'll be adding quite a new few non-fighting orientated quests over the next few days.
I just happened to be in as a DM when the party was formed, as it was a 10 "person" party with a high number of higher levels in it, heading into a place supposedly reknowned for being quite nasty, I also spawned quite a few extra critters to make it a bit more of a challenge (hmm maybe -too- much of a challenge in parts heh).
It was also a means of "testing" the new server a little, with so many people in one party/area.
So apologies you got caught up in quite a frenetic period of play last night, and I'm sure that next time you're involved with a DM (which hopefully might be this Weekend, when Sirac and Solitaire are running a number of things with lower level players?)........ it will be more story orientated :)
Cheers
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 02:11 PM |
it will be more story orientated :)
Doubtful... Sirac has become a psycho axe murdering type recently. Real life job fustrations and all that...
:)
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 02:50 PM |
I have not had too much trouble reaching level 7 but then Shalee is silly enough to follow Jand and Ana into situations she probably shouldn't be in. A lot of her leveling has been though roleplaying which is why I joined Vives in the first place. I much prefer the roleplaying to the fighting. Although, it is exciting when she gets a good shot in.
(One piece of advise - be sure you're in a safe area before you level. I was dumb enough trying to level in one of the forest areas and nearly died. If Shalee hadn't been with a large group, she probably would have.) ;P
It sounds like she missed alot of fun there. I'm looking forward to getting back IG soon. I hope by the weekend at any rate. |
Shalee Windwalker.....wife of Chandler, Ranger, Cleric of Elbereth
Alianda - Change can happen.
Lara - half-elven Ranger, trying to reshape her life
Tia - Cleric of Vilyave
"Delicious Ambiguity" |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 04:04 PM |
it will be more story orientated :)
<quote> Doubtful... Sirac has become a psycho axe murdering type recently. Real life job fustrations and all that...
:)
- Paul
Nah, it's Barnas's evil influence wearing off on Sirac . |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 04:21 PM |
Aww, shucks.
-Barnas |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 04:23 PM |
Sorry...
My bad on attacking, or not stopping my attack on the Atalan queen. I was trying, but it was tight in there, I couldn't see what was going on or click the right button. Too bad, because I would have liked hearing what the queen had to say had she been in a better mood. : (
It was a great journey and good test of our abilities in a very challenging area. Thanks to all who were there. |
Alarwen Emeria - Patience and time...
Ranger/Sorc/AA
Jessminda (companion) |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 05:16 PM |
| Sigh...I tried yelling for everyone to stop...but everyone done had the Click-Lust in their eyes... |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 06:15 PM |
| It was a lot of fun, despite what happened. It is unfortunate that we screwed up the encounter with the queen, though. Perin would probably have liked it. Hehe. |
Perin - Underage, Overthinking Druid
Farrah Centarius - I've gotta chip on me shoulder
Chandra - Desert Woman
"An easy life doesn't teach us anything. In the end it's the learning that matters: what we've learned and how we've grown." - Richard Bach |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 06:45 PM |
| Luther: "There are places nearby that you should NEVER go to. For if you did it would surely mean a gruesome and horrible death...Let's go have a look!" |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 08:23 PM |
My two cents would be that I agree with you that Vives is definately hard to level in. I find it very unapealing. I actually started a new character and it was so painful to level I gave up rather quickly. I also think waiting to get exp rewards for rp, though very appreciated when they happen, are rare and don't add up to much when death is so puinitive.
I would say though that my experiences since I've come back with the DMs has always been very positive. I have never really felt that a DM ever purposefully killed my character off. There was always the posibility to escape the encounter and there was always ample warning that there was going to be a DM in the encounter. Granted some times the DMs do get a little tough, I think it is generally pretty tactful. I also think the DMs are very sensitive to the players. PDwalker in particular strikes me as someone who is extremely tactful and sensitive overall.
I would agree that there are not enough players in Vives right now. I would try to think up strategies of attracting old players back, like Loli Dunkirk. I might advertise Vives with its strong qualities in the hopes of attracting new blood, and encourage players to invite their friends to play and be accepting of the friends of current players. I might PM every person who has an account with an update of the highlited improvements with Vives and the change in DM staff. Vives is a pretty good server in my opinion. It has some nice people in it player wise as well. My only complaint is the difficulty leveling and occassionally, the over emphasis on certain play styles as well as certain expectations that may make some players uncomfortable. I think the 5 exp per kill is a little sadistic. Early levels are just boring, and the quicker your done with them the better. Levels 9 through 14 are the most exciting in my opinion. Above that its nice but nothing particularly grand.
Back to studying.
Aloria |
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Re: The frustrations of starting out..
Posted: 15 Sep 2004 09:05 PM |
Whoawhoawhoa
Kinda left it after my last reply, only to notice I got TONS of feedback. Didn't quite expect this much of a responce.
I really don't want to give the impression that I'm whining or such. I was having a pretty rough start, but it's gotten ALOT better now that I'm past the initial 3 levels.
I've run into quite a few scripted quests, and all told.. the dialogue I've gotten into with Shard, in the few days I've been here, has already made me feel more welcomed than any other mod I've been in. =)
Glad to see a community that enjoys playing this game as much as I'd like to. =) |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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