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YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 12:21 AM |
You'll Be safe yeah go ahead sneak by they cant see you anyway.
You dont want to wait for the boat sneak trough.
**** ***!!!
Im having so much fun! I died... yet again... I stopped counting after a 100
But Man this his so stupid and pointless...
This time I fell to kobolds.... Yes Kobolds....
I wanted to do a quest but since I cant fight my way trough behing a loosy melee and have no spell whatsoever.. I had to sneak in.
Well... You might say A good spot check on their side and your toasted ... right?
Right ... thats why I used a Dust of Disaperance (Improved invisibility) Says in the description that no one can see you by ANY normal Mean ... as to be magical... So I use this and start toward my goal in the Kobold home...
Well Guess wath Kobold have see Invisibility..... huh huh I used examine to make sure it wasnt a bug... Some of them do have it... and once ONE as seen you all the other see you also (( that might be a bug ))
So Here I find myself Losing Ks of gold and 1K of XP because some Low Level stupid beasty as suddenly decided it had See invisibility...
BTW I believe this is as been intended by the DM to make sure rogue or mage didnt use their spell for what their made for.
So Id like to state something
I've heard on numerous occasion that certain hability have been restricted so they would not be abused and other were cut off because they gave an edge to a certain class over another. Or even that it created better roleplay...
So now whe have Rogues that cant sneak because ANY creature as a chance of having see invisibility or TS. Same goes with mage invisibility and Impro. Invis. Mage that cant have a familliar without being nervous all the time because if ever it died they probably die in the few second fallowing taking a double XP loss (( And dont give me the "well You have to unsummon your familiar real quick" Bull Sh*t Thats plain stupid and cheesy using the mechanics to avoid something)) Then you have fighter that run out of Kill XP because OH MY!! they could kill thing for XP and get a level (((The last part used to be here but it got so long I moved it so you wouldnt forget the begining))) Cleric who are an Hybrid class between fighter and Caster BTW, who almost get the lowest combat XP around and have a huge XP disadvantage on Spell use. But Aye They get good spell at High level so make it REAL hard to move up. ( and modify a few of them so that they are not usefull anymore "Find Traps" comes to mind Here, or they've been made Hellishly dangerous ... yep you guessed it Raise dead and resurection. )
Since every single Class has been stripped of all the things that made them fun or that these things where rendered almost useless to better simulate roleplay. Why Dont we finish up the job theres only a small step left.... lets make the MOD one city zone and we will all be commoners lvl1 with a max Level of 1.. that should make for good Roleplay!!!! No monster to fight... no Class so everyone will be balanced and their wont be anything else to do thn roleplay.. You could even make the mod a single Room with lets say 5 chairs so that we can all roleplay who gets to sit on the chairs.
All this ranting as been caused by the death of a poor hafling who decided he wouldnt make his way trough life by killing Thousands of creatues. Ive almost reached lvl 7 by killing less than 12 rats, 1 sand Viper, 2 stirge (they saw me sneaking) and 2 assassin that I didnt get xp for since I killed them with traps that I made myself. So this death as removed all the Xp I made today... SOOO Great
(( Guess What I have a fighter Lvl 11 that died so many time I would have to kill around 2500 creature to get to next lvl SOOOO much fun and Good Roleplay lets make a Genocide so I can get to next level eventually)) If ... you ever have the idea to make a pure roleplay Character that DOESNT take part in ANY fight other than the unavoidable badgers and Rats that Aggro you as you step within 50 feet of them... Well You better have a LOT of patience because Roleplay XP ...*ROFL* ... well lets say you wont get far with 140xp or OH MY! a 500XP For Major plotline with excellant roleplay. Wow 1 or 2 Major plotline a week ... IF im not busy doing something in RL well you should get a level in what 3-4 months. But of course you can always go adventuring and slaughter everysingle critter, monster, race, dragons (( well not dragons but it came very close )) and it will be considered very good roleplay. Well I just love roleplaying clicking on monsters to gain XP over and over and waiting for the server to reset so I can go again and Loot some more while I slaughter every living and unliving thing that cross my path or that I can go and kill in its hidding place. When I started playing a few months ago Highest level players were X, Friel and Loli well those that I have seen, and they played UndredS of hours to get there and now we have a bounch of people that get epic in under 250hours of play time (( Im being really generous here Im sure some did in less than 150hours )) Well that must have been a Hell Lot of Roleplay XP to Kill EveryMonster over and over and over and over and ov..... |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 06:37 AM |
I'll start by saying... thanks for your imput. :)
The only problem with this argument is that it links roleplaying and fun to level.
It's an easy trap to fall into- I don't think anyone will deny that it's fun to level and be able to use new skills, feats, spells...
However, that's not what the fun of a server like Vives really is.
I suppose I can use a lot of examples here, but I'll just pick the latest one.
Two rogues pick a characters pocket, and then there's RP of getting away, being caught, getting guards...
The gold itself can be a matter of 26 gold, and so in terms of "Whoa, you rinsed my character!".. it's not a lot. It's a hard situation to roleplay out- especially when it comes to physicly escaping (Should the rogues be able to get away, should higher level characters intervene ETC), however the general situation is fun for all who take part, hopefully.
Or sitting in an Inn talking for a couple of hours. That's a lot of fun, it really allows you to get to know other characters in ways you wouldn't when you're out fighting- who talks about how their sister always used to steal their pillows at night when they're fighting dragons?
That's where the real fun of a server like Vives is, in my opinion. Playing out the characters role, their very life.
Now, don't take that as meaning that fighting isn't a part of that. Almost every character will be some kind of combatant, or adventurer- so the fighting and levels element is important.
So, why is this system set up the way it is in Vives? Why do we think that this sort of system encourages roleplay?
I'll try to answer every point in your posts.
Some creatures had to be given see invisibility because characters were noted to use invisibility to:
1/Explore places they could never go to otherwise and gain unbalancing ammounts of exploration XP.
2/Loot these areas repeatedly to gain items that a character of their skill shouldn't be able to gain so easily.
This is, of course, coupled with the NWN engine facts that NPCs don't react to listen checks when you're invisible, so they don't do anything to you even though they would know you're there, after all- invisible isn't inaudiable, and running through the muddy wastelands, you -would- leave footprints behind you.
Also, the creatures around crates don't react when their stuff is being stolen, even though barrels are opened, chests are opened... that's not a very IC situation.
So, the decision was made to give a small percentage of monsters a skin OnSpawn which would give them See Invisibility- and it's not even the same creatures every time.
So, running about invisible now has a risk attatched. If you're careful, you can still survive that though. I know my characters who use invis have developed tactics to deal with NPCs who "Hear" or detect them whilst they're invisible- and there are ways to do this without having half of the monsters in the area attack you too.
So now whe have Rogues that cant sneak because ANY creature as a chance of having see invisibility or TS. Same goes with mage invisibility and Impro. Invis. Mage that cant have a familliar without being nervous all the time because if ever it died they probably die in the few second fallowing taking a double XP loss
That's not true.
I think the percentage chance of creatures having TS is very, very low indeed. I know that my Rog/Shd Thelia has had about two instances of this bothering her in about 90 hours- and the worst case is that you have to use a new tactic because sneaking doesn't work. You can use a scroll to summon a creature, a potion of speed to run off.. it's not a deathtrap.
Likewise, Fri'el runs about invisible for a lot of the time, since she's "above" fighting most creatures. It doesn't bother her a lot of the time, and when it does it's a situation which can be stopped causing any major harm to her- admittedly, she's a high level. But this was true of when she was a lower level as well.
The familiars thing is true. NWN tried to make familiars more combat oriented, because in their PnP function they would have no use in this style of game. However, they made them about half way to combat oriented, they still die a lot.
Familiars are a -part- of a mage. They're not to be thrown into combat willy nilly, since you're meant to loose a whole level and take CON loss if they die. And then wait a year and a day to summon them again- thus 1d6 HP and 1%XP loss capped at 150 is a very generous compromise, merely a tap on the wrist to prove the point!
Clerics have to level slowly because they're so overpowered. They have the casting potential of a mage, and beter melee than a fighter. There needs to be -some- drawback to the class. Oh. And did I mention that they can also raise the dead and heal better than any other charactrer class as well?
XP reduction has always been a feature of Vives, because high levels are -meant- to be special here. You're not meant to get to them fast. Arguably, some characters may have broken this rule, but it is still the rule- and moreso now thanks to more tweaks to the system.
Kudos to you for making a noncombat character- it's a hard thing to do, but generally worth it.
However, the expectation that a character who doesn't fight anything will become a powerful combatant... no-one would ask him to stay low leveled, however how can a character who doesn't fight learn to kill?
I'm not saying the system's perfect, but if you look at it it really is very good. All the classes have their Pros, and their cons, emphasised by the system. You wouldn't believe how well a "proper" 4 person party (Rog/Clr/Wiz/Ftr) works here.
The fact that your fighter needs to slaughter kobolds in that number is intentional- he wouldn't learn anything from it. Why doesn't he go try his hand at giants? The system encourages you to move on and explore the rest of the world, not to stay fighting kobolds for an eternity.
Roleplay XP is a reward, not a right. I myself try to give it a lot to those who deserve it- and I sometimes think I give too much *grins*. It's done on a %of XP to level, so a lower level character won't get a tonne an a half of XP when the DM awards them.
I think 3-4 months is exccesive, but I do know that Fri'el's gained two levels since christmas, and the last level only recently. (And I didn't get RP XP for planning and executing an attack on Midor! =P)
When you joined the server, Loli, Dias and Fri'el were the highest leveled PCs, but not because the system was different. They had the longest number of hours IG and didn't fight as much. They stood around and talked, mostly. Then they got a place to sit, and talk- but when they went out, they still got 1XP for a kobold and 10 for a giant. The only difference now is that some players choose to focus more on the combat side of RP- but you don't have to do that if you don't want to.
Stand around. Chat. Have a pint- and don't worry about leveling. The levels seem to fly past much faster when you're not concerned by level. Mayby time flies when you're having fun?
Either way...
It's always annoying when you die, but it's going to happen. I know I posted a rant when Fri'el died to something stupid. Just, after I sat and re-read it, I realised that the things which seemed stupid when I was trying to level were the things which made Vives special, encouraged exploring...
Thanks for your comments. We appreciate being told what we're people think we're doing right, and what people think we're doing wrong. It's how we evaluate what we're doing, after all. I hope my explainations for why things are how they are are A/Right and B/Acceptable.
-Barnas |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 07:48 AM |
<snip>
Familiars are a -part- of a mage. They're not to be thrown into combat willy nilly, since you're meant to loose a whole level and take CON loss if they die. And then wait a year and a day to summon them again- thus 1d6 HP and 1%XP loss capped at 150 is a very generous compromise, merely a tap on the wrist to prove the point!
<snip>
Just wanted to say, Ilyana's familiar died the other day and she took around about 500xp loss. It was =definitely= not 150.
Not sure if this is correct or a bug ?
thanks
Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 07:58 AM |
Mayby it's 1000 then.. I know it's capped so it isn't too nuttily insane. ;)
Either way, it's far, far less than a level.
-Barnas |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 08:43 AM |
haaa a few hours of sleep.... Still bothered so lets start ill make my reply in a few posts I have to leave for work in 10 min
First
"I think the percentage chance of creatures having TS is very, very low indeed."
Well whats the difference between TS and See Invis. , They both give you the ability to see sneaking and improved invis people. So who cares if TS is Extremely rare See Invis Isnt.
Im not sure But Is Sanctuary included in the See Invis Range... if it is well See Invis Is a low level TS only difference TS have glowing eyes on top of the char head.
"That's where the real fun of a server like Vives is, in my opinion. Playing out the characters role, their very life."
Exactly I couldnt have said it better! I just dont want the life of my Char to be Stay hidden in the city and talk to people because when you go out you get killed.
"However, the expectation that a character who doesn't fight anything will become a powerful combatant... no-one would ask him to stay low leveled, however how can a character who doesn't fight learn to kill?"
Well I never wanted him become a better combatant and kill everything easily in the first place therefore I made him a NON-Combatant Player meaning He wont Fight endless number of monster even at High level. But its real Nice to have Your skill go up after you use them for a while. and im not talking about combat skills here. The only skills I have associated to combat are those that help you avoid it (( Like thumble )) and those that come freely to my class. My feats are all Skill Focus and Things that help a non-combat skill. So why I want to raise my level well so I can become better at doing what I do. And guess what it doesnt include fighting.
Ive run out of time now ill continue this when I come back .... |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 10:02 AM |
Well whats the difference between TS and See Invis. , They both give you the ability to see sneaking and improved invis people. So who cares if TS is Extremely rare See Invis Isnt.
Im not sure But Is Sanctuary included in the See Invis Range... if it is well See Invis Is a low level TS only difference TS have glowing eyes on top of the char head.
That's not true. See Invis does just that... let's you see invisible characters and monsters. Only true seeing sees sneaking characters.
And there are XP points given out for certain skills, and non combat quests. However, ultimately, levels are a reflection of combat ability. It's depressing, but it's how the DnD system works.
I don't know what your class is, but I'll use a rogue (Usual skill based character choice) as an example. He gets sneak attack. How does that happen if he never fights?
-Barnas |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 02:52 PM |
Invisibility, See Invisibility, and True Seeing all give modifiers to a persons Hide or Spot rolls. The bonuses are different based on the spell.
Go look up the hard, fast numbers, 'cause I don't feel like digging them out again.
Fact is, Invisibility is NOT a guarantee, See Invisibility is NOT the only way you can get spotted, and True Seeing (IMO) is ridiculously broken under standard Bioware implementation.
And if we're comparing, I've got a level 11 halfing ranger/rogue who will probably never see another @#$%@!#$'ing level ever, considering I maybe earn 1000 xp after a whole day of playing and consistently lose 3000 to dying, which I do too much of 'cause I do dangerous things like solo, or try to tank Wooly Mammoths. And he's my main.
In FACT... *goes and looks up some numbers* Some of my favorite roleplayers on this server have xp-per-hour averages that are less than HALF what could be considered the "standard" right now. And they're having fun, too. Hmmm.... Crazy weirdos. *laughs*
-- Figleaf |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 04:31 PM |
| To put it in RL terms, I earn MAYBE 2000xp every two weeks with Vandle. I earn a bit more with Vandrax, but merely because he is under 10th level. |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: YEah!!!! Kobolds Rock Man!
Posted: 30 Apr 2004 07:06 PM |
Invisibility, See Invisibility, and True Seeing all give modifiers to a persons Hide or Spot rolls. The bonuses are different based on the spell.
Mmmmmmm Nah uhhh.....
Stealthers will never been seen by the See invisibility spell, because, thats... all it does.... allows you to See invisible people. True sight is an improved version of See invisibility that allows you to see all Invisible peope, Santuaried people, Traps, and Stealthed people, No matter how high there Stealth skills are.
Here it is, plain and simple....
See invisible will allow you to see Magically spelled invisible people....
Listen/spot skills will protect you from Sneakers.
Magic Counters magic, Skills counter skills....
the only Case when this is not true..... is True sight, which will reveal you even if you Move silently and Hide skills are 113 each..... which Is why I think it should be removed from the game, Players should not be able to cast this, and it certainly shouldn't be on an item (I'm glad its banned)
HOWEVER The Amplify Spell (New bard spell, nice scroll to have) adds +20 to your listen ranks temporarily..... and the Clarivoyance/clairaudience spell adds 10 to both your Listen and your spot checks.... which... makes it easier to spot People using the Stealth Modal Action by improving your characters already existing skills. So.... this is still a cast of Skills countering skills
Hope that Helps.....
And If you're a rogue, you can still get a sneak attack on a creature with true sight...
(and no, its not by "having a tank take the hits so i get free sneak attackz") |
The Legacy Saga |
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