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Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 02:03 PM |
This is something I was thinking about, and is not meant to be directed at anyone, or intended
to offend, it's simply to provoke discussion.
being a DM here must be a hell of a job, and to be perfectly honest, I really don't envy anyone who takes it on!
How far are the DM's accountable?
There have been a number of problems in the community recently, which have cropped up for a whole variety of reasons. I don't want to go into them but they are all serious issues which are in the process of being worked through. I don't play at the moment due to a lack of time more than anything else. I like to keep in touch with the forums so I know what's going on in Vives. However, I do feel that there are a lot of issues that stem from the fact that many people feel that everything is handled behind closed doors, noone really fully knows what's going on.
This issue is one that's touched my personal life as well, so I feel that it's something that's very important in any situation.
At the moment, the DM's can be protected by anonymity if they, which prevents conflicts of interest when they play, and also prevents them being targeted on the Forums. However, it does leave the door open for abuse of authority, which can end up being a serious problem. So what can be done to prevent this abuse?
There's no protection for people who feel that their characters have been badly treated by a DM, they can take it up with Alosynth, which is fine, but there's no guarantee that it won't happen again, since they have no idea who the DM was, or what they were doing. I think someone mentioned the fact that the reason DM's shouldn't be identified was to do with trust and maturity.
What happens when the DM's break the trust?
So what are people's thoughts on this? Is there a middle ground that can be reached? |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 02:28 PM |
I can take some of the "anonimity" out of it for you, without necessarily revealing the "player" identities" of any DMs. Everybody here knows I'm one, so no need for me to remain anonymous anymore. ;)
The policy of DMs being allowed to remain publicly anonymous will remain. There's simply no reason to not have it. Below I'll tell you how to handle a problem, should you have one.
I'm the Head DM here. Alosynth is responsible for player relations.
If you have an issue with a DM, click on their name (as if you were sending them a "tell") to get their login. If a DM does not speak so that yuo cannot determine their login, note the time of your concern instead. Send it in a private message, along with a description of your issue, to me, and to Alosynth. We'll investigate, and get back to you with what action will be taken, if any action at all is deemed to be appropriate.
One thing I'd like you all to keep in mind as you read posts complaining about one DM interaction or another. We do not respond to these items publicly. There's no productive end that can come out of such flame wars. Additionally, we don't feel they should be posted publicly by the player, either. All you're seeing is one side of what may very well be a lopsided story. We discuss all player feedbacks that are received. I'll ask you to consider this: Would the player base appreciate it if we posted every transgression (real or percieved) by every player in the public forums? We wouldn't get very far, and it wouldn't be much fun at all.
Accountable? We trust our DMs. If one of them did something way out of line, they'd most liley have their DM privileges revoked, but there would have to be rock solid proof that something really egregious has been done to create this situation. It's not a decision to take lightly.
What I'd like to hear from you, is this: What would you define as "Abuse of power" on a DMs part? It would be good to know if we're close together on this definition, or very far apart. Could help to clear up any "misunderstandings". |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 02:37 PM |
I've said it a few times, that the one thing that can't hurt any government (and this IS a government) is communication. On all levels. In the two weeks I've been here, I've seen the mod's version number change at least three times, but I can't seem to find documentation on what's been updated. What I have seen is a "this is what I'll be doing in the next few weeks" but what I haven't seen is "this is what's been done this week" thread. It drives me nuts. Communication can only help the process because protection by anonymity was the problem in the first place! If a DM is doing something wrong, people should hear about it, because it increases awareness of DM corruption.
In an effort to keep things objective, I understand the other side of the argument. Not only does it right away declare one side of an event (without giving the offending person time to defend himself), bringing things out into the open looks bad, declaring "This DM did nasty things to me" sort of produces a singling-out feeling, and is a highly unstable method of solving problems because it has a high chance of degenerating into a flamewar; something nobody wants to see. Also, so many "The DMs are reducing our liberties and screwing with us whenever they want" threads is discouraging to newer players, or potential players.
I guess you could say that when a DM does something that others view as wrong, it's a very delicate subject. On one hand, openness and honesty is good. On the other, you want to avoid anger/discouragement on behalf of everyone involved.
Edit - Landru, from someone whose signature is "Question Authority" you sound like you're taking a very authoritative position on this. The very problem, and the reason this is an issue is because many people feel that there's no point in reporting a problem to the very people that have err'd them. Anonymity also leaves people wondering who to trust! I've occasionally felt picked on by DMs, asking myself "Will they ever stop making Balthor's life miserable?" but I've never witnessed what I thought was a full scale abuse of power. If I had, I really don't know what I'd do. I guess it would be based on the nature and size of the problem that I had percieved. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 02:38 PM |
A question:
Let's suppose, for a second, that all DM's were completely publicly disclosed.
Let's then suppose, that when an altercation comes up, the entire log of every single reprimand, ingame warning, bug exploit, suspension, and obscenity filled PM of the player who brought up the altercation is publicly posted on these forums.
Accountability, and transparancy, are a double edged sword. Remember that when a player decides to make a public accusation against the team, if the team RESPONDS they get accused of hating players and being rude, but if the team DOESN'T respond then everyone just assumes that the single (and sometimes HUGELY self-serving) side of the story that they are reading is the end-all be-all of the situation.
Here it is, right here:
I am a DM. I have been a DM about two weeks now, give or take. In that time, I have welcomed new players to the world, helped people fill out their applications, handed out RP experience, rez'd people who died because of OOC events, rez'd people who died because of IC events and then RP'd the consequences of that rez with them, worked hard as heck behind the scenes to collate rules and information into a more understandable format, lobbied for expansions/clarifications of certain polilcies when I felt they were confusing, and done my best to HAVE fun, while helping OTHERS have fun.
In those two weeks, a small handful of players have almost totally drained any joy, passion, or willingness to make Vives better that I have right out of me. It is NOT server wide, it is NOT one class, one alignment, or one action. It is a constant, hateful, often (and I'm not trying to be rude, or hostile here, but I'm gonna tell it like it is) openly deceitful mindset evinced by these players. Who are these players? They are exploiters, that's really all I feel it is appropriate to publicly announce.
Ask yourself this: The next time you DON'T have DM interaction, DON'T get the help you need, CAN'T get your legitimate problem solved, instead of worrying about whether or not that means a DM doesn't like you or thinks you are cheating, worry about whether the only DM on the server is halfway across the world trying to protect Vives, and the MANY MANY players of Vives who do not cheat, exploit, or lie to players or DM's, from the small selective-memory crowd of people who insist on not playing by the rules, not playing by the SPIRIT of the rules, and not telling the truth about certain incidents.
Yes, I agree that the team of Vives needs to and is I hope in the process of, trying to improve the way it does things. I promise to all players that I am trying as hard as I can to improve Vives in every way I can. You can all help us do this by not cheating, not exploiting, not lying, and just generally not drawing DM resources AWAY from improvement and TOWARDS constant policing, constant arbitration, and constantly reading forum posts and PM's telling them they aren't doing a good enough job, or are abusing their role, or hate the players.
Really, can we all do that? Can we, as a whole community, maybe take two or possibly even three days in which nobody accuses ANYBODY, player or DM, of being a bad person in a big public forum for all to point their fingers at and go, "yeah, you really are that bad!"? In which nobody transfers items? Or dupes? Or logs out and in multiple times to try to cheat death?
'Cause I gotta tell you, this stuff is really starting to wear me down, and I'm brand new to this role and AM DOING MY BEST TO BE FAIR TO EVERYBODY AND BE THE BEST DM I KNOW HOW TO BE.
Thanks to those who have made that fun. Not so much thanks to those who have made it extremely, extremely unfun.
And before anyone thinks to jump to the conclusion that this means I'm out to get any player out there, even the ones who are frustrating me very, very badly: I have rez'd, given RP exp to, and tried to give a good gameplay experience as best as I am able to some of the very same people who are otherwise (in my mind) going about the business of making Vives less fun for everyone. I do my best to be fair. I expect some folks will refuse to believe me on this. *sighs*
-- Figleaf |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 02:59 PM |
I want to take a moment to say this about myself. I don't want to give the administration or the DMs the wrong idea. I don't want to be labelled by the server as a "rebel" or a "metagamer" or a "cheater," I want those in charge to understand that my interest in Vives is only in its improvement and its continued glory.
I've been here since July 30th. Since then, I've been suspended once for abusing the spellcasting EXP exploit. I have metagamed before I left and after I returned. I have sent tells saying "I'm dead, come save me." and I've been saved by them. I have appealed my ressurection when I've died because my computer crashed, or lag, or whatever. I have done a lot of the things that people look down upon. I'm not proud of it. Granted, I don't do it very often, of course. I do my best to avoid abusing the rules (I've respawned while my friends were in the middle of rescue missions I asked for just because I felt bad about it), I try to always have a good reason, and if I ask for anything to be added to the mod, I try to offer to submit it myself. People consider me a tremendous role-player, and I am in every way dedicated to Vives. I've tried other PW servers, but it just wasn't the same. I'm a huge fan of the DMs, I've absolutely adored some of the quests and DM intervention I've seen, and can only hope to be involved in more.
I represent what you might call a "balance" of everything that is good and bad about the server. And I try to keep my arguments in this topic objective, and if I can't do that, it's because the side I'm on is the only side I can be on; the players' side. I don't represent rebellion or anger or flamewars, I try to represent balance, justice, things being fair. Hope I don't give anyone the wrong impression.
Edit - To actually say something about the thread, I should mention that it would be healthy for PMs sent by angry players be placed in a thread too. If you make personal matters public, people will be more thoughtful when writing about how "disconcerted he was by what he percieved as unfair practices on the part of a DM." :P
Edit - On the other hand, if you make everything public, players may be intimidated by this method of spotlighting what they might feel is a personal problem, and be less inclined to bring up an infraction that could be a very real problem. I'm really on the fence with this. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:24 PM |
Hope I don't give anyone the wrong impression.
And this, to me, is at the real heart of the issue. In the past THREE DAYS how many threads have we had now taking the DM's to task? How many times has a DM gotten frustrated to the point of break? How many players who honestly are trying to have fun in Vives and improve the world have come to worry about whether they need to fear a DM being logged in? And for what? For a small number of incidents, with a small number of players, that do not in any way represent the average gameplay experience of the average Vives community member. I can only speak for myself, but generally it's the "level headed" players and DM's out there who I most respect in the midst of all this sandbox piddle fighting. There is a difference between commentary and inflammatory public challenges. I think we all can see that difference. I hope that the prospective players out there who have nothing but the poo at the top of our new posts lists right now can see the difference.
I think all of us, players and DM's, need to take a step back and sort out in our heads the difference between frustration and antipathy. But I also think that ULTIMATELY the players must trust the DM's, and it's an unfortunate fact of ANY online videogame that DM's cannot blanketly trust the players. Do their best to be fair, yes, but not completely trust. The DM's must mistrust players, to a certain degree, so that players don't HAVE to mistrust each other or the DM's.
The fact is that NWN online isn't a PnP game. If this were PnP and I was DM, not a single player would ever have a single experience that I didn't control. No player would ever go somewhere I didn't allow them to go. No player would ever acquire an item that I didn't give them. That's not totalitarianism, that's the plain honest mechanics of PnP DnD. The DM IS the game, in those situations. The players play the game, but the DM IS the game.
But in an online persistant world, players interact with eachother without DM involvement. Players can choose, entirely on their own, what their character concept is, where they go, who they associate with, how they react to NPC's. Players have an economy that isn't based on NPC's or DM's at all. These are GOOD THINGS, and part of what makes a PW such an amazing thing and so much more than PnP DnD. But it does mean that DM's have to split their time between RP'ing with people and just MONITORING and CORRECTING people's non-DM play with an eye towards the fun of the world as a whole.
If we took a poll of all players, it would be pretty obvious that everyone who plays Vives, good RP'er and mediocre, good player and exploiter, has RADICALLY different agendas and concepts with regards to what would make Vives a better world. I assure you that for everyone who requested more opportunities for good alignments to RP, someone else would request more opportunities for evil alignments to RP. The DM's have to moderate all this, and do their best to make everything as much fun as possible for as many people as possible. But no single player will ever see a Vives that is exactly what they want.
It is how people react to that fact, whether they choose to discuss or accuse, that can make a big difference in whether DM's respond with "I agree, what does everyone think a good solution would be, let's get something implemented" and "GET OFF MY SERVER!" This difference is further exacerbated by whether or not this is a person's first accusation, or their twelfth. It is further exacerbated by whether, IG, they work towards the fun of all of Vives or just repeatedly ignore all rules and communication that IS given to try to force Vives to be the way they want it.
I've played other servers. I've had altercations, as a player, with DM's of other servers. I've been told before, "if you are gonna refuse to see our point of view, and continue to insist that it would be better your way, go build your own dang server and shut your mouth, Figleaf." In so many words I have been told that. Stung real bad at the time. But, I left. I went and found other servers. I found a play experience more in keeping with what I wanted. I worked in POSITIVE ways to modify/improve the servers I came to. Eventually I found a better fit. Looking back on the whole experience with the benefit of time and wisdom, I can see that in at least one incident the BEST thing for me the player AND that world was for me to leave.
This isn't me telling anyone to leave. This IS me saying that there are positive, and negative, ways of staying with OR leaving a server.
At the end of the day, it is a game. Telling someone who devotes all their free time to try to make YOUR fun better that they are stupid, unfair, hateful, rude, abusive, out-of-control, childish, or a slew of obscene words is about the most unpositive way a person can possibly handle the situation. Remember, a player works to increase their fun. A DM works to increase the player's fun. Berating them for not doing it fast enough, or well enough, for your taste is... well... in extremely poor taste.
-- Figleaf |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 07:06 PM |
Thanks for all the points of view.
Personally I feel very much indebted to all the DM's and worldbuilders for the consistant efforts they make, so I'm glad that people have responded in the spirit that I first wrote the post. I was really thinking of the issue not just from the Vives perspective, but trying to get people's opinions on it in general. And I hope I didn't come across as trying to take the DM's to task, I was intending to start up a discussion, which it seems to have done.
I know the DM's are doing this off their own backs, and in their free time. So anything the players say really has to be taken as suggestion and ideas. I know there's been frustration recently, and as you say, a step back would probably be a great help. |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 26 Mar 2004 03:54 AM |
Here's my two scents... hopefully they don't stink.
I'll put my own spin on the modern business concept of "transparency and accountability" as applied to Vives.
Transparency and accountability are fine when you are a back-office IT operation serving a business, and you need to justify cost of operations vs. levels of service, and such to the front office. I don't feel that transparency and accountability in this sense should apply to Vives at all.
My concept of Transparency for Vives would be more along the lines of ensuring that DM interaction was transparent to the PCs in-game. I want DMs to add to the atmosphere. I don't want to "know" when a DM player name signs on for a variety of reasons. One reason is that it screws with my own level of immersion into the Vives' world. Another reason is it nearly guarantees that you will "act on your best IC/RP behavior" in order to curry favor. I'd rather (for better or worse) just act like my character should to all other characters, without this in-game meta-knowledge.
Contrary to what I say about in-game transparency, I consider these forums to be OOC (obvious exceptions are those forums that are IC). So, for here, I *do* want to know who the Vives' staff are. Again, there are many reasons I would want this. One reason is that I want to know who speaks authoritatively on a given topic/discussion thread. Another reason, is I consider these forums to be open exchange - where opinions are voiced and heard, and responses are given and documented.
Clearly this requires separation of NWN sign-on names and character names, from forum posting aliases. Aside from that, there should be no issues on either side of the coin.
Moving on to the next point that I would want to make, is that I see that there is a difference in perception amongst players (and probably Vives' staff as well) as to what the DM responsibilities are. In my opinion, those responsibilities are varied and sometimes in conflict with one another. Two key responsibilities I hold as core to DMing are:
1) They're there to provide a fun place for the player base, and
2) DMs serve as "referees" between players and the game environment. This means that the game environment should be equally capable and as well-represented as the player characters. The DMs and other Vives' staff are there for balance. It's PvE (player vs environment) and PvP (player vs player), and not PvDM (take a guess).
As far as accountability, I think they (DMs) should be held accountable to each other. If one DM falls astray of the overall direction that Vives' staff wish to take this server, they are the ones to judge - because they are the ones that "own" the Vives' vision and direction, not the players. If the direction or vision changes, then new players that like that direction or vision will show up.
This is not the same as saying that players cannot or should not affect the direction and vision of Vives'. Give the feedback, and you may open up new ideas for Vives' staff to implement. So in this respect, the players and Vives' staff feed off of each other's responses.
-A. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 26 Mar 2004 11:55 AM |
| All my interactions with DM's to date have been just great. I'm not sure what problems others have had, but I've nothing but good things to say about the DM's here. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Transparency and accountability.
Posted: 27 Mar 2004 06:06 PM |
I just wanted to say I agree with Figleaf 100%.
The other side of the coin is, players who are attempting to be good, can also be hurt by DM's comments when they get "labeled" or put in a box. Im not saying anything specific, but players put in time here too, and most of them (like me!) are trying to work with the DM's, respect DM's and enable everyone to have fun. |
Humbly Submitted,
Sinjin Kane |
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