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An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 01:19 PM |
http://www.f13.net/2.php?subaction=showfull&id=1080167307&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2&
I lurk in a lot of professional game development forums, as my hobby is as much about making video games as playing them. The above article has some really fascinating things to say about the concept of leveling in RPG's, what gameplay means when there are no numbers, and a discussion of what makes a satisfying "endgame" experience for longtime players. Thought maybe other people might be interested.
-- Figleaf |
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Re: An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 02:43 PM |
*snip*
If the moment you stepped into your MMOG of choice, you could attack any player with the same power as any other player, could attack any mob in game with a decent chance of winning, and could travel to any zone because all zones were made for all players.
*snip*
Hee, I must admit I'm not fond of PvP, at least not in the way he describes it. I like to be confrontational at times, but to actually attack another player? Not my style of gaming. All too soon things turn into hack 'n slash, unless the players are all really mature. But that is another topic. :)
What happens when there are no numbers? I've played games with no numbers. I've had a lot of fun. But imho no numbers is still different from no levels. No levels means: everyone is the same: so either all apprentices or masters or somewhere in between. I like diversity (and not just in classes: smiths, warriors, enchanters, mages, priests, etc... but also a master with his/her apprentice(s)). If everyone is the same 'power-wise' then it becomes a tad boring after a while I think. If all areas are for everyone...
I like the fact that in vives, you can't see many areas unless you get in a very well balanced party or are very high level (and even then you have to party in most cases). It's part of the magic of the world for me. But that's of course just my 2 cents |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 02:52 PM |
Excellent points. Did anyone think to go read the forum commentary on the article? There is a lot of discussion about what "achievement" and "satisfaction" mean in a game without ever increasing numbers.
Part of what is suggested is customization of the "sprite". The more places you visit, the more unique your PC looks ingame. People would be able to tell how far you had traveled by looking at you.
Part of what is suggested is alignment or socialization titles. People that are liked on the server get a "good guy" tag of some kind attached to their name. People who aren't liked (for IC reasons, not OOC which is a different issue) get a "bad guy" tag. The more descriptive the tag, the more socialized that PC has become.
I'm not a PK'er either. In fact, even on another server when I specifically rolled up a PC who was to mug other players, in multiple months of play I only ever killed one PC and only after a long Tell conversation about whether or not they were okay with it.
But PvP in RPG's has a huge negative connotation that just isn't there in other genres, and it isn't all about griefing. No one can deny that FPS and RTS online games out there have their share of griefers, and there is nothing to an FPS or RTS but pure PvP. And yet these games, these genres, are well established and filled with both hardcore and casual gamers who are having fun and not feeling like they are constantly being made miserable. Is the difference just the genre? Or is the difference the fact that getting PK'd doesn't "lower your numbers" or make it slower to get to the next level?
*shrugs* I certainly don't know the answer. That forum I linked to is populated by the designers of UO, EQ, AC, Shadowbane, SWG, et al and they aren't sure they know the answer.
A question, about certain areas being hard to get to: What would you, or anyone reading this, think would be the balance between "areas that are hard to get to are fun" and "areas that are hard to get to aren't fun"? In the commentary, one person specifically mentions increased travel time, geographic diversity, and travel restrictions as a way to increase content and gameplay in a "leveless" world. But they also say they could design the most amazing such world ever, and thousands of people would refuse to play it because "walking suxxorz".
-- Figleaf |
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Re: An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:07 PM |
| I'd kind of like to see an MMORPG where the characters are based on skill or something. I don't know if that's zany or wild, but to see combat handled through a fighting-game style interface where skill is more of a factor than persistance would be refreshing. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:17 PM |
Excellent points. Did anyone think to go read the forum commentary on the article? There is a lot of discussion about what "achievement" and "satisfaction" mean in a game without ever increasing numbers.
Part of what is suggested is customization of the "sprite". The more places you visit, the more unique your PC looks ingame. People would be able to tell how far you had traveled by looking at you.
Part of what is suggested is alignment or socialization titles. People that are liked on the server get a "good guy" tag of some kind attached to their name. People who aren't liked (for IC reasons, not OOC which is a different issue) get a "bad guy" tag. The more descriptive the tag, the more socialized that PC has become.
-- Figleaf
The connection may not be immediate, but the salient represantative from this class is "the Sims". If success is measured in popularity, then certainly this is a plausible model.
(An interesting aside: a "peaceful world sans PvP", it nonetheless has its share of problems; one springing to mind are cases where OOC clans would rally to pee on someone's lawn, thereby giving them a bad name. This was certainly not anticipated by Maxim, and I'm not sure if they have any solution to counter that.) |
~Vanadis.
"What race are you, my lovely Guardian Angel?"
"I'm half-Sweetheart and half-Bitch. Don't push me."  |
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Re: An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:31 PM |
Hehe, I admit I didn't read the forum posts (I'm trying to get some work done here and it's not really progressing... oh well).
I think the main difference between PvP in RPG's and in FPS and RTS is that in RPG's as we play them here is the persistency. Let me elaborate: take any RTS, Unreal Tournament for example. People fire away at each other. They die. They respawn. Rinse and repeat. If I had died as many times IC in Vives as I did in my trials at FPS, I don't know how to even get that in the background of my character's history.
Diary:
Day 1: I died 23 time
Day 2: Oh blissful day, I only died 10 times.
Well you get the point.I've played FPS games mostly during exam periods when I was at uni. It felt good to 'kill' others and be killed. Get that stress out of the body! I can do that with RPG games as well, the so called hack 'n slash PW. Yay level 40 in a week. Whack everything, get killed, respawn. Who cares about a story eh? I can't imagine that here on Vives.
Ok, I'll be honest. I haven't written about all the deaths or near deaths Xaranthir experienced (although certainly half my dirtnaps are from tests. I hate you Ara!!). As we all know you don't lose a level when you die on Vives until you reach either 15 or 20 (doesn't matter here). If you just made it to say level 10 (leveled off square at the needed XP) does that give you license to go attack that huge bad monster in the cavern of ultimate doom, just to see it? Ok you'll die, but you won't get 'punished' for it. Now there's a fine example of bad roleplay in my opinion. That's really thinking in numbers (aka rollplay). Hmm guess I'm ranting here.
Lets get back on topic. Your last question is pretty interesting. But let me first clarify something: the high level areas are not more fun than the low level areas. Actually I was found it fun to see new areas, now matter what they were (ok there has to be -something- there). I don't mind traveling through wilderness, but there should be diversity (for me at least). Lets suppose someone built a module or PW based on Europe in Midieval times. Now you find yourself in Paris and have to go to Madrid. What if they actually made it so that after Paris you get an endless number of meadows or forest tilesets, all looking alike. That would be boring for me. However if the traveling was long, but had a lot of different landscapes in it (forests, meadows, swamps, mountains (you better get over the Pyrenees), etc...) and also random 'things' (encounters, or anything else) that would make it more fun.
I guess this goes a bit back to the topic: too much realism can be boring. I don't mind walking, but if I have to do it for hours real time in a game, then that would be a tad much. ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 07:13 PM |
Wow...great article, and wonderful comments made here about it. Thanks for sharing it with us, Figleaf. Ill add a few thoughts as well...
To create a game where levels competely did not matter....a very difficult task. How do you keep the players interests? Firstly....you would most likely be dealing with a different breed of players than many you see here..though not all. I think we experience some of this type of non-level behaviour when we focus on storylines that don't explicitly involve skills, spells, or power...but rather allowing the player to thoughtfully consider the solution to problems rather than just clicking on a series of buttons. That banishes much of the level mentality, because while a level 20 wizard might darn well be able to cast the cool spell to banish the demon, if he doesn't understand the meaning behind the spell, it wouldn't work. While there might be a level 1 wizard who can roleplay creating the summoning circles and drawing on the proper forces to banish it. Thats a levelless environment...where thought outweighs stats.
Unfortunately, dms cant be here all the time to run these constant quests...so what keeps them on even during down times? Social interaction is a part...but everyone gets sick of talking after a while. My thought is this....an exremely player manipulatable environment, where they can use, move, change, alter, destroy about anything that is in game. As much options of player interaction with the environment that you can pump into a game. This allows for creativity and personalization that keeps folks focused on things besides levels. How cool would it be if you could find a forest, really chop down the trees, and build yourself a log cabin....craft the furniture so that like crafting a weapon, you had choices for how the legs, armrests, and seat looked... Being able to cut through the undegrowth of a thick swamp to find your own path through it to some hidden location....gathering a group of dwarves to actually create the mineshafts and underground cities.... Given, some of it might be tedious, but combined with great roleplaying and dm involvement, it gives the players the purpose to continue on. Again, a near impossibility....but something I would love to play. I've seen similar things on the MUD's I used to play, but being text driven it might have been a bit simpler. I think, in the end, players want to be able to affect the world that they chose to play in. With most RPG's, including NWN, that ability comes through levelling. A server that could modify that somewhat....would be monumental. Crafting does help, but it is only the tip of the iceberg.
Thoughts??? |
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Re: An interesting article (MMORPG's, endgame, and the level-grind)
Posted: 26 Mar 2004 01:49 AM |
Coruva you bring up an interesting point and forgive my shortness here, but I really have to leave for work :P
What I hear you describe is the mix of a RTS (resources are out there: go cut the forsest, go mine ore, etc, etc.) and a RPG. To me this would be like the ultimate game. Yet I think that such a game would require very mature players in order for it to remain fun for everyone. Then again I suppose maturity is something wanted in all RPG games (I don't consider pure hack 'n slash servers RPG games, only a stress relieving thing).
Text driven RPGs make for better descriptions but are probably even more taxing on DMs than graphical ones. Well I'm not sure... A DM could really set the pace in there, while in NWN it's perhaps a tad harder... Ok sounding contradictory here.
It would be awesome if players could be able to interact and modify with their surroundings. It would certainly make for an entirely different kind of roleplay. Ooops we cut down the last tree. Did anyone think of replanting it? Little (or major) things like that would make for one hell of a game experience. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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