|
Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 08:45 AM |
first question: Is it fair that a party member sleepign in Midor gets his alignment affected by another member who is across town "acquiring" something? Since the first person cannot see what is happening and effect it?
secondly: I'd like to point out that NWN has a very LOOSE inperpretation of Lawful: who's laws are we to be obeying or breaking? What nation, town, guild etc. should a lawful character choose to adopt certain rules - thats how rules were supposedly made in the first place - so a character should be able to be lawful if he or she adopts a set of rules of a governing body? What if in one society its common to share items? (there are coutless better examples I cant think of right now being sleep depraved)
CHAOTIC on the other hand is a bit simpler - just a failure to obey any laws really.
finally - what to do to get "lawfulness" back? Countless ways to loose it, very few to gain it back. One would think aiding the PR militia or some such other quest would give lawful points.
Just a question for discussion. |
Humbly Submitted,
Sinjin Kane |
|
  |
|
|
Re: Law & Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 08:55 AM |
| all members of a party get an allignment shift whenever anyone in the party gets one. Thats just the neverwinter engine at work and nobody can do anything about it. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law & Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 09:10 AM |
| Oh! Sinjin I would have thought you would have been aware of the old parable ... Wisdom dictates that one be selective in ones choice of companions for you will be judged by their actions ... Bronwyn |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law & Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 09:22 AM |
<CHAOTIC on the other hand is a bit simpler - just a failure to obey any laws really.>
I have to disagree here ((boy, Macha getting philisophical lately ;-))). I think that rather than being a failure to obey any laws, Chaotic is a tendency to only follow ones own laws. Not submitting to what others think is right, but using your own judgement and standards. Of course, as people change, their ideas of what is right will change, thereby the Chaotic position. And of course, the right to change ones mind often *smile*.
Trishy
Macha Sparrowsong - song is my life |
Trishy
Macha Sparrowsong - Song is my life
Coretta Alandar - Cleric of Midoran
Dekla Debena - whatever
Not all people who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 11:35 AM |
I have to halfway agree with Trishy, that chaotic means obeying your own internal laws rather than an external written set of laws. I disagree that the "chaotic" comes from daily fluctuations in one's internal laws. A society of individuals all obeying their internal laws, even perfectly consistantly, will appear chaotic to an individual from a society where all individuals are obeying a single set of external laws.
I think however that neutral can come from two different directions. A neutral person can obey part of the written laws even when they do not agree with that person's own conscience, perhaps on the grounds that -some- standardization is necessary for a viable society. Or, a neutral person can go one way or another according to convenience.
A chaotic good individual's behavior may easily be indistinguishable from that of a lawful person's behavior, as long as the chaotic individual believes that the laws are just. Only where that person believes that the laws are unjust will the difference appear.
It has been my observation that a lawful neutral character is driven nuts by the behavior of a group of chaotic good characters. While the chaotic good individuals are all aiming for a goal that is somewhat agreed upon, the lawful neutral character (who lacks that goal) keeps floundering around seeking the structure and failing to find it. How a lawful good character interacts with them depends on how much that character is strictly lawful at the possible expense of good. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 12:05 PM |
Good point...the disclaimer of "it feels right to me" might be a perfectly acceptable reason to a chaotic character, while being completely out of bounds to a lawful character, since it doesn't follow any set rules. Internal laws are hard to judge, especially since the character can rationalize them to whatever degree they feel necessary.
<<society of individuals all obeying their internal laws, even perfectly consistantly, will appear chaotic to an individual from a society where all individuals are obeying a single set of external laws.>>
hmmm...another factor is if the character just doesn't see how the laws affect them, so they follow them by default. It doesn't hurt to follow them, they just really don't care either way. This can apply both for the neutral, and the chaotic, I think. If it just doesn't really matter to the character, they might choose to follow them to avoid any trouble that might come of not following them. Of course, if they are chaotic,they might easily choose not to follow them, just to see what happens....
<<I think however that neutral can come from two different directions. A neutral person can obey part of the written laws even when they do not agree with that person's own conscience, perhaps on the grounds that -some- standardization is necessary for a viable society. Or, a neutral person can go one way or another according to convenience.
A chaotic good individual's behavior may easily be indistinguishable from that of a lawful person's behavior, as long as the chaotic individual believes that the laws are just. Only where that person believes that the laws are unjust will the difference appear.>>
It happens this way in RL too...lol...Seriously, I agree...a lawful neutral, or even lawful good, character is taken aback by any suggestion that it is okay to do what you want, or what you think personally is right, regardless of any laws or rules that may contradict it. I think the difference is that a chaotic character (good or neutral) is driven more by personal ideas of right and wrong, while a lawful character is driven more by a set of rules presented by an outside force...i.e. government, church, etc.
<<It has been my observation that a lawful neutral character is driven nuts by the behavior of a group of chaotic good characters. While the chaotic good individuals are all aiming for a goal that is somewhat agreed upon, the lawful neutral character (who lacks that goal) keeps floundering around seeking the structure and failing to find it. How a lawful good character interacts with them depends on how much that character is strictly lawful at the possible expense of good.>>
Very interesting thread!!
Trishy
Macha Sparrowsong |
Trishy
Macha Sparrowsong - Song is my life
Coretta Alandar - Cleric of Midoran
Dekla Debena - whatever
Not all people who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 12:09 PM |
| I think Lawful characters rely on what they feel is right as well. The difference is that Chaotic characters will do what their feelings dictate, while Lawful characters, if they feel strongly enough about it, will try to change the system. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 12:51 PM |
| Well, it still depends on how the lawful character is played. I was looking forward to playing my CG character against a couple of LG characters whose strength of commitment to G might have been strong enough to overcome my character's aversion to their L vector. They might even have had the capability of swaying her more towards L, by for instance demonstrating that laws can be changed. In the one case this will never now happen, and in the other I do not yet know if it ever will. Another LG character she has encountered has come across as pedantically "lawful equals good" to her, and this interaction misses completely. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 01:07 PM |
Lawful and Chaotic arn't one thing. Like Slink says, one L character will be completely different to another. One PC of mine believes that in many cases, Good is the result of Law. Another Lawful PC I once played believed that Law would only spring up where Good and coherence existed, even if it was later corrupted- and that corruption could be changed back lawfully as well.
Of course, C/N-G and L-G can get on well together all the same- if you're willing to stop being Good just to obey a law, you're probably closer to L-N than L-G.
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 04:27 PM |
Grasshopper, it has been said if one lays with canines, one awakens with fleas.
One must be vary careful who one travels and forms parties with.
callia |
Rutger_13
---------------------------------------
Not all who wander are lost |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 04:44 PM |
Ok. *takes deep breath* Glad to see everyone weighing in. In regards to playing your L(g) character according to your own laws - you can't because certain rules are forced on you by the toolset. I wish you could.
1.5 is there a code of law for the Asashi monestary for instance?
2. The name is Sinjin. Grasshopper was my second cousin twice removed
3. Still no ideas where to actually *regain* lost Lawful points
4. Im well aware of the NWN toolset restrict on alignment changes in party - my comment was directed at the fairness of such a device. Didnt exsist in PnP.
5. this is a social server. I try to be friendly to all (especially if I have never met them before and also especially not goign to take anything anyone says OOC or IC as fact before I meet a person myself and judge) this involves grouping with people to get to know them.
6. there is no #6. |
Humbly Submitted,
Sinjin Kane |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 04:53 PM |
I must say I dont hold a lot of faith in the whole DnD alignment system, its so open to interpretation it practically has no meaning to me. Is it the way people perceive your character or the way he or she perceives themself? I know my character has taken actions that could be perceived as anything from LG to CE, I just refuse to be straight jacketed by this system. My current alignment is in no way a fair reflection of how I see (Doujan sees himself) and Im sure other people see my character..
The unfortunate thing is that some classes are restricted by the alignment and if they do stray they cannot be considered -that- particular class any longer. This does seem unfair, especially when in realistic terms they had nothing to do with the event for example that has shifted their alignment. |
Eerel Swiftfoot
Self proclaimed fasterest little person in da land
Eerel's Story:
http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=49386 |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 04:54 PM |
I do not believe you can regain lawful points IG, however I imagine that if your alignement was "unfairly" shifted more than 5/10 points, you'd have a case to ask a DM to put it back.
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 19 Feb 2004 09:02 PM |
| I try not to party with other players unless I am actually in the same area or actually travelling with them. There is really no good reason to be in party mode unless you are fighting common enemies because it is designed as an xp splitting system and nothing more. I assume it puts a heavier workload on the server to be in party Mode as well. If you are in party mode the game would have to check every other party member when you kill something to see if they are in the area or not. This might add up (I 'm not really sure :P) to cause un-needed lag. My advice would be to refrain from partying with people unless you actually are travelling together. |
I do what the voices in my head tell me too. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 08:53 AM |
huh? Im always with people I party with. except in the case of town above where people always split up to shop.
I have to agree with Doujan... its a bit restricting on some classes - but it is what it is - so we will have to make the best of it.
p.s. sorry to sound some what like ranting earlier - just wanted to see what people thought about the alignment *caugh* system. Really great observations above. This one thanks you. |
Humbly Submitted,
Sinjin Kane |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 10:55 AM |
I disagree wit the statement this issue did not exist in PnP. everyone, of ourse, plays by different rules interpretations, but when I was active in PnP, Paladins could not travel with evil characters.
Period.
Callia |
Rutger_13
---------------------------------------
Not all who wander are lost |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 11:02 AM |
Paladins -can't- knowingly travel with evil characters. Period. Be it PnP or NWN. It's a staple feature of the class.
Of course, there's nothing in NWN to stop them , but Barnas thinks that anyone who lets their Paladin knowingly associate with an evil character is being a bit of an idiot. Of course, the latter part's just IMHO.
And rules lawyering aside.. what sort of interpretation of the Paladin class has them associating with evil?
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 01:45 PM |
| Wondering in any LG char would or should travel with an evil char? |
Humbly Submitted,
Sinjin Kane |
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 02:05 PM |
I can think up reasons why a Paladin might travel with an evil character...
A Paladin and a LE character make an uneasy alliance of sorts to battle what, in the eyes of the Paladin, is a much greater threat. This would only happen if the Paladin could come up with no alternative, and the LE character is willing (ie has too much at stake and finds himself at least temporarily, with similar goals as the Paladin).
Why only LE? The Paladin would only do this with someone who is known to be true to their word Otherwise the Paladin, who is not lacking in wisdom, would know he is just going to get stabbed in the back (possibly literally). |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 02:35 PM |
There's reasons that they can't. But there's a much bigger reason why they can't:
A Paladin who knowingly associates with an evil creature immediately looses all Paladin abilites
The class doesn't leave room for manouvre. That's the point.
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 02:46 PM |
By the rules you are correct, but IMO, its rigid thinking like that that can cause a Paladin to fall. I think there could be a credible argument made that a Paladin would lose his status if he didnt work with the LE character, if say, his failure to do so brought about terrible consequences, and his continuing to refuse continued to result in death and suffering to the innocent...
Somthing to think about. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 03:20 PM |
Well in -that- case its obvious what the Paladin should do- help the innocent and screw their Paladin abilities. Since that's the "Best" thing to do. And atoning after that wouldn't be so hard- unless your DM was mean =P
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 03:52 PM |
I'd have to agree with Barnas about this. For a Paladin, the end wouldn't justify the means. If the end is that important to them, they would find a way to do it with out the help of the evil character even if they die trying, and fail.
Its always been my opinion of paladins that their self righteousness would leave them very much short sighted in their actions.
For some reason this analogy popped into my head. The robots from Asimov's books. In the books there are three programmed laws in all robots. Roughly, from memory, they are:
(The First Law) A robot can not harm a human, or, through lack of action, allow harm to come to a human.
(The Second Law) A robot must obey all humans except where this conflicts with the first law.
(The Third Law) A robot must not harm themselves, or, through lack of action, allow harm to come to themselves, except where this conflicts with the first or second law.
Now over the millenia that these stories take place, one group of robots created a Zeroth law, which states that no robot may harm, or through lack of action allow harm to come to humanity. This of course added to the first, second, and third laws the caveat that the Zeroth law must always take precedence over all other laws. This caused a schism between the robots, making a faction that followed the Zeroth law, and a faction that didn't.
To me, Paladins are like the faction that doesn't follow the Zeroth law, they lack the ability to see beyond the first law, even though, the salvation of all humanity would to them be very important, if it meant harming a single human, and therefor breaking the First Law, they would be unable to do it, but they would continue to look for a way to resolve the issue that doesn't involve breaking their first rule.
I think the same would apply to a Paladin, even though they know that the end is very important, they would be unable to break their own set of codes (without loosing their Paladin powers) to join up with the evil guy. |
~Alosynth
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 04:12 PM |
I agree with your view of a typical Paladins self righteousness and short sightedness. But your description of them seems to point to an extreme LN alighnment as opposed to LG. The means being more important than the end, means strict adhereance to the law, regardless of the outcome.
In the face of an overwhealming imbalance such as the scenario I portrayed, where the Paladin does not have to harm one to save many (which I agree he would never do), but merely has to go against one of his (lesser) tenets (association with an evil individual) to bring about great good... how can he not do it without being in jeopardy of losing his Good alignment? |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Law, Chaos and Alignment
Posted: 20 Feb 2004 04:17 PM |
I'm going to randomly jump in and say thius sort of argument is why I HATE the Book of Exalted Deeds.
In the book of Exalted Deeds, there is room for a few select types of good only; either the paladin who follows the Law part over the GOod part; the extreme self-sacrificing martyr and the extreme pasifist who pours his drinks through a strainer so he doesn't harm any flies that feel into them. Deviate from these idealisms of good and you have lost the purity of your soul.
Which begs the question; faced with two decisions, both of which have a degree of evil, and only these two decisions, what do you do? Do you choose the lesser of the two evils, which say, requires some evil act but results in greater good? Or do you choose the other, which starts of good and pure but leads to a terrble evil end?
The BoED damns you for both. And the worst damnation comes for the FORMER, not the latter. This is why I hate and despise the book. Never realised that D&D could be written in the style of a fundamentalist Christian :P
This might be a wee bit off tangent for this, but I feel it applies the same. Who is the 'more' good; a paladin who follows the laws and his code of honour to the letter, or someone who is willing to walk 'the dark side' to achieve a greater good in the end? The BoED has no room for the latter of these two; you must be 100% pure or burn in the Abyss for all eternity ;p
</rant>
Anyway. My thoughts are, everyone has their own definition of Lawful and Chaotic. I confuse myself on this; I consider my Lawful character to hold to the laws of the land and the justice in a land above his own thoughts (which IS Lawful, I think); but if he finds that the laws are wrong, then he will abandon them for his own moral compass (which is Chaotic)...Feh. What AM I going to go with these alignment-less characters?
And eh, anyone who talks to Shaz'jen on the nature of paladins will find out quick his opinions on paladins who take the lawful bit far more seriously than the actual 'good part' ;) |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
|
|
|