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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 06:19 AM |
TPK's shouldn't happen. That is the result of bad dm'smanship for lack of a better term or stupid players. It does though...and if it does well...time for one of the 'gods' to step in.
For dm'd events of course...if it's a TPK because your three level 3's attacked a cr250 dragon with 9999 hitpoints and true seeing well...respawn and take your 5 con character back to wherever to lick your wounds ;-) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 11:49 AM |
I saw Moriarty's point in a wholly different way. Not to say: "we lose the RP factor when we lose XP because we want to get it back" - that's a flaw in the player, not the system. Though it may or may not have been the point, or one point, I took the sample in a different meaning.
An event in which death occurs can still be a very memorable RP moment. Death (in a mechanic term), overall, can be very memorable and a good source of roleplay. Even in the most enjoyable event in the entire history of all histories divided by 0 can crash because of death and respawn, the fun going down the drain along with the work of weeks and months of character development. You don't have to be a powergamer who cares only about XP to have that fun taken away, it happens even to the best of us: we die, respawn, lose all that hard work, and lose the incentive to keep playing for a while.
In fact I was sort of grasping for both of those thoughts, thanks for filling them in for me.
In regards to the wanting to get XP back that is a player flaw, and of course it shouldn't really matter to someone who's roleplaying their character - but the truth is we'll all flawed, or at least most of us. At the same time the act itself of taking away XP is attacking the player not the character. So that a player minded response is the most likely reaction. What I was trying to say before is dying/near dying should be a character driving action --You get beaten to the brink of death by a hoard of dark dwarves and left for dead, the character should have some sort of emotional response to that. Be it swearing death on their dark, horribly accented hides. Or maybe running if fear everytime someone mentions the word dwarf. These are certianly extreme examples but however slight the change I don't think anyone would disagree that nearly dying should have some effect on a character. And with a good roleplayer this is certianly the case now, and its great to see this. At the same time the system as its set up now breeds outrage from the player about a death. I know as a flawed player its really difficult to think about how my character is effected when I'm looking at the message on my screen the says Exp Lost 14,000 Gold Lost 80,000. Some players react by running out in an effort to regain said experience, others by shutting off the game and imagining themselves tossing their computer out a window, or.... whatever. But I'd guess 90% of people dying have a player reaction to death rather then a character reaction. Powergamer or no.l
It's not that I don't agree with what Johe said either. It's completely true, but I don't see the issue as the main flaw of XP loss.
This is a tricky road to follow, when considering the existence of XP loss altogether. Other punishments might not be serious enough to thwart players from taking stupid risks with characters and disregarding the possibility of death. I can honestly say that I don't see an afterdeath penalty having the same effect as XP loss, but the effect of respawning also has plenty of negative sides.
Thinking about it on a broader term, if XP was never lost, and only gained, how would that effect the level curve? If Alton had never died, all that XP he "wouldn't have lost" would likely bring him to his level thirties by now. It is an important point to consider, as I can easily see the lack of XP loss forcing changes on the XP system altogether. If no experience can be lost ever, should it be gained more slowly as well so that the desired level curve could be maintained?
This is a good point, and since I've never had to balance a persistant world and I've not bought NWN 2 yet I don't have a clue as to whats avalbile in the line of programming and I haven't a clue how removing the giant amount of exp loss in death would effect things.
As far as not beeing deterant enough to taking over the top risks... I don't know that I agree. But even if I was to do so, thats just saying its as bad as the system set up right now. Even in the teen levels it takes, what, three deaths to drop you back to the beginning of your level if you were near the top? I know Talion tends to nose dive straight back there with a single death where he's at now. And then death is just gold loss until you gain your xp back.
In the line of disagreement, first there are any number of after death effects that can be brought to play here. The ones that have been mentioned as far as I recall:
-Delayed experience gain. Possibly limited to just combat experience but not including removal of DM granted. I would push here that the time for this is In Game time rather then Real time. Having this real time would just push character jumping or even server jumping while in the penalty box.
-Temporary Stat loss. How long exactly is a judgement call, but certian conditions might effect this. Respawn/Resurrection/Raise Dead Perhaps also the location of the character death (The coast of Buckshire might have different results then dying in Undraeth for instance.) And the time of death prior to being ressed.
-Permanant Stat loss. This is one I shook my head at the first time I read, but it may have uses. Someone brought up perma death which I believe should only be a player or dm call, never system based. But the idea that it could only happen after so many deaths could get tacked onto perma stat loss. After a certian number of deaths, or maybe just death in a certian location results in a roll for perma stat loss. No epic character right now really worries about tackling the outskirts of Maldovia but consider if your character was ambushed by vampires you forever lose a point from one of your stats, then this living manifestation of Syn does invoke a bit of fear.
-Faction change. I don't think this has been brought up, and it might not be possible. This runs off the assumption that by living through a quest your killing off witnesses. But if you were to get killed or at least nearly killed in someone's powerbase it would change how you are seen by those people. -Example- Your beaten to death in Frezt's cavern. Rumors spread and suddenly the people of the Icy Vale are running you out of town to keep Helkris appeased.
Thats all that are coming to mind at the moment, if I missed any, appoligies. I believe the variables of these effects can be altered to the point where they do create the level balance that is sought as well as creating a suitable death risk for a character. At the same time all of these options offer a playable aspect to character death, where xp loss gives no playable situation in of itself only a slap to the face of a player.
Anyway, hope I've been a little clearer this time.
-Moriarty |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 01:25 PM |
-Permanant Stat loss. This is one I shook my head at the first time I read, but it may have uses. Someone brought up perma death which I believe should only be a player or dm call, never system based. But the idea that it could only happen after so many deaths could get tacked onto perma stat loss. After a certian number of deaths, or maybe just death in a certian location results in a roll for perma stat loss. No epic character right now really worries about tackling the outskirts of Maldovia but consider if your character was ambushed by vampires you forever lose a point from one of your stats, then this living manifestation of Syn does invoke a bit of fear.
I don't consider myself a player who cares too much about character strength or experience points, but I'm still "flawed" like most of us here like you said.
That's why regarding permanent stat loss, I can only keep shaking my head. To borrow off the example you've given: if my character was ambushed by vampires, and I died, and I forever lost one of my stats, this certainly does infuse fear of death into me. However, that one stat point could mean that I may no longer be able to cast Level X spells, or no longer gain that 1 skill point per level, or lose that 1 AB/Damage, or lose another point of AC, et cetera. You don't have to be a hardcore powergamer to consider shelving that character because it just lost quite a bit of its efficiency, even when only one point was lost, let alone several points during several deaths.
It's not a whole lot of fun to watch your character irrecoverably take a step back with each death. It's like being in a hike and whenever you trip, I make you less and less capable of completing the hike by making you weaker. At which point would you think to yourself: might as well give up and start over another chance - a new character?
Now say I play that wizard again, and he died to the group of vampires. He lost a stat, and is now probably less powerful - regardless of whether it was INT or something else. His chances of surviving the next close encounter are lesser, and he might lose another stat, further lowering his chances to survive, further losing another stat, and so on. Myself? I would make a new character after losing only one point, or leave the world altogether.
Way I see it, permanent stat loss is just a way to mask a permadeath system. At some point you would HAVE to make a new character. This method just does it under cover: WE won't wipe your character, we'll MAKE YOU wipe it yourself. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 01:28 PM |
I just got my computor upgraded and loaded up Vives 2 and am currently playing it. I kinda like how if one member of the party "falls" they are "revived" by the rest of the party at the end of the battle with 1 hit point. It allows for continuity to the story with the added problem of having a badly injured party member. Maybe in Vives we could do something similar as I have mentioned before.
You know, it seems to me that each of our different ideas is based on a different prefferance as to how much "fantasy" and how much "reality" we want to blend into the game. But in the end it is a game, and the xp penalty has been a huge detriment to the enjoyment of the game. If none of my ideas are good enough, I genuinely hope someone comes up with something you like.
JJ |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 01:33 PM |
I just got my computor upgraded and loaded up Vives 2 and am currently playing it.
Cool. Can you teach me how to travel through time as well? |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 02:53 PM |
-Permanant Stat loss. This is one I shook my head at the first time I read, but it may have uses. Someone brought up perma death which I believe should only be a player or dm call, never system based. But the idea that it could only happen after so many deaths could get tacked onto perma stat loss. After a certian number of deaths, or maybe just death in a certian location results in a roll for perma stat loss. No epic character right now really worries about tackling the outskirts of Maldovia but consider if your character was ambushed by vampires you forever lose a point from one of your stats, then this living manifestation of Syn does invoke a bit of fear.
I don't consider myself a player who cares too much about character strength or experience points, but I'm still "flawed" like most of us here like you said.
That's why regarding permanent stat loss, I can only keep shaking my head. To borrow off the example you've given: if my character was ambushed by vampires, and I died, and I forever lost one of my stats, this certainly does infuse fear of death into me. However, that one stat point could mean that I may no longer be able to cast Level X spells, or no longer gain that 1 skill point per level, or lose that 1 AB/Damage, or lose another point of AC, et cetera. You don't have to be a hardcore powergamer to consider shelving that character because it just lost quite a bit of its efficiency, even when only one point was lost, let alone several points during several deaths.
It's not a whole lot of fun to watch your character irrecoverably take a step back with each death. It's like being in a hike and whenever you trip, I make you less and less capable of completing the hike by making you weaker. At which point would you think to yourself: might as well give up and start over another chance - a new character?
Now say I play that wizard again, and he died to the group of vampires. He lost a stat, and is now probably less powerful - regardless of whether it was INT or something else. His chances of surviving the next close encounter are lesser, and he might lose another stat, further lowering his chances to survive, further losing another stat, and so on. Myself? I would make a new character after losing only one point, or leave the world altogether.
Way I see it, permanent stat loss is just a way to mask a permadeath system. At some point you would HAVE to make a new character. This method just does it under cover: WE won't wipe your character, we'll MAKE YOU wipe it yourself.
I don't believe this would be as crippling as it seems. First your looking at characters that are wandering into these places to begin with - Using Vives 1 as an example (Poor as it is since the level balance will be hugely different) Consider a group that would enter into castle Valinor - At the very least we'd expect upper teens more likely epics. Four to five characters. Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Warrior. Basic party, and they run into a total party kill. Even if each character lost a point from their class specific stat - Warrior goes from +30/40 ab to +29/39, Cleric and wizard Might loose one or two spell memorizations per day, a rogue might loose a point of ac going from high twenties or low thirties I'd guess to either high twenties or low thirties. It certianly would effect the character but not make one worthless.
And I would only suggest this idea in extreme cases such as in Maldovia as I mentioned. Thats one place that seems to invoke the potention for a character altering event. Or the depths of Abbandon perhaps. The reason I like this idea to some degrees is it makes these places which right now are just high level dungeons into real threats. These are places where just traveling to risks not just your character's life but it's very soul. When a dm catches a group in one of these power bases, and has the time, or the inclination to mess with them its usually not just a matter of having masses of creature thrown at you but something real happens. The Void Slaves is the most recent thing I know of happening. In my early days Gukuthal's temple would erupt into chaos after an unsucessful invasion, even corrupting one of the characters that fell in its defense.
It seems scaling repercussions based on where a person's fallen makes sense to me. Its possible that perma stat loss is over the top, I just know that certian situations should have a lasting effect. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 03:20 PM |
I would not want to see permanent ability drain implemented unless two significant changes were made to the xp gain system.
1) XP. gain made challenge rating (CR) based rather than pool based. (you gain xp more quickly once your character has had abilities drained, as encounters are more dangerous)
2) All multiclassing penalties negated. (If my rogue has had five fingers removed, at least he can become a wizard instead)
It might at first glance appear that this would negate the effects of draining abilities, but believe me, it would be bad enough. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 03:37 PM |
I don't believe this would be as crippling as it seems. First your looking at characters that are wandering into these places to begin with - Using Vives 1 as an example (Poor as it is since the level balance will be hugely different) Consider a group that would enter into castle Valinor - At the very least we'd expect upper teens more likely epics. Four to five characters. Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Warrior. Basic party, and they run into a total party kill. Even if each character lost a point from their class specific stat - Warrior goes from +30/40 ab to +29/39, Cleric and wizard Might loose one or two spell memorizations per day, a rogue might loose a point of ac going from high twenties or low thirties I'd guess to either high twenties or low thirties. It certianly would effect the character but not make one worthless.
Assuming you only plan to die one time until you hit level 20.
My chars all would creep around like hunchbacks at level 10 already. In Vives 1 I think all my chars who hit level 14 died at least 20 times. That's 20 stat points. How useful can a char like that be?
Seriously this whole discussion already gives me the creeps... Of course I'm joining a RP world for roleplaying with others, but if I didn't want to adventure at all, ignore the game system that is mainly about xp and levelling at all, then I could as well just jump over to Second Life or play the Sims. As WA said, losing stats permanently is as good as permadeath, maybe even worse because you see your char getting weaker and weaker before he finally dies (sort of a cancer thing). Death is already very harsh in Vives, and especially when you play at weird times when noone's on who can help you out or you can party up with.
Now I as a european player who was often playing alone would have absolutely nothing to do anymore. I'd be too scared to move if death would permanently weaken my character, and an ingame-time based xp penalty would leave me to stand around and chat with NPCs. If it was RL time I could at least jump to another server, which I consider a fair option for someone who can't do anything else. The other option would simply be a cheesy jump to the OOC area and leave my character there while going to the cinema.
All those ideas are pretty good on first sight, but for me with my personal experience in Vives - that means no 30 players around I can chat with while waiting for my no-xp period to time out - it'd simply mean I'd go looking for a different place. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 05:24 PM |
| Hehe I meant NWN 2. The fact that I only bought it to play Vives 2 notwithstanding, I would have to comment that NWN 2 doesn't play as smoothly as NWN 1 did, and I find myself not having as much fun as I did with NWN 1, maybe that's just me. But one thing is for sure the interface doesn't seem as user friendly as NWN 1 was, ESPECIALLY when it comes to commanding the party, unless I have yet to find an easier way to do it. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 05:32 PM |
| The way people are talking around here, I think I might just hide under a rock and stab at random things ankles when they walk past :o |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 06:56 PM |
WA describes exactly the kind of consequences I had in mind when contemplating the permanent loss of ability points. I just see these as challenges, and I like that they could come about unexpectedly. It would take some getting used to, but a wizard who can't cast every spell up through level 9, or a fighter with less than the strength they once had might still be worth playing. And, if a character was important for an ongoing story (or more than one) it might be important that they keep playing, flaws and all, rather than being dumped in the server vault for good. Paul has said in another thread that what you get for playing the same character for a long time is influence and reputation, and that might balance the importance of abilities, AB, skill points, etc.
Its less thinkable to have everyone on the server above level 8 or 10 with stats in say the 4-13 range, because they've died a bunch of times. That's just silly.
If you lost 1 point from some ability every 4 levels, you'd break even. Some people would do better (I think qualifying them as "heroic" and having better ability scores than most) and some people would do worse (to me, just making them interesting, and I suppose tragic little hump-backs, a.k.a. "gnomes"). The DMs could track this and create some possibility to gain these back. I have no idea how you could calibrate these losses to keep the server vault from filling up with the so-called unplayable. Moriarty's idea about having this consequence only applied to certain areas of Vives 2 is a good one, as players could manage their risk and decide about going there or not going there.
Casa's words resonate with me strongly. The word for this nasty world where wizards get beaned in the brains and rogues lose all their fingers is "creepy". I like creepy, but I don't like creeping out the folks I game with (unless I'm GMing a session of Cthulhu!). Maybe for that reason we can just admire the creepiness of this system of permanent ability losses we've worked out, and the world full of one-eyed hump-backed no-spell casting nincompoops that would result, but go with something more familiar from Vives 1.
Johe: tell us more about Vives 2!! |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 08:30 PM |
While Renter describes the situation adequately, I would not one to get into one myself, as a player. I would dump a character after it had lost an ability point, sometimes even if it was only one. It's sort of like the game punishing you for exploring the world, which is a big reason why I don't agree with permadeath either. When I play Vives, I see it like it was defined may times: a sandbox. I like roleplaying, and fighting, and exploring, yadda yadda, all of which is part of experiencing the game for as much as it can offer.
That's where I think permanent penalties and temporary penalties differ here. Death is the most common occurrence equivalent to "slipping" or "taking the wrong turn" while exploring and experiencing the world - or basically just playing the game. Most games have this penalty system that comes in when you fail the challenge then you lose something, sometimes the entire game.
That's exactly where the difference is. You can either create a situation wherein failure is something to be avoided absolutely, it's the end game, the "game over" in big silver letters. What would you do if you failed a quest or died in a game? Most likely load a saved game and try again. On the other hand, you can also create a situation wherein failure is as much a part of the fluid playing experience as anything, and doesn't necessarily mean that when you fail you go hit that load saved game button. Rather, you keep going, get past your failure, and try to make up for it.
We can borrow off two different games from NWN.
In Half-Life 2, you get the first situation I described. You have your goal, you have your mission, and you have to succeed in order for the game to progress. You died, you failed to protect your target, or kill the enemy in time, yadda yadda: game over, load a save and try again. If you fail the challenge, the fluidity is broken and you have to "relapse".
In Guild Wars, the situation is like the latter. You go out and do something, and you die, so you suffer a penalty. You can keep playing, try to make that penalty go away while continuing on, either successfully or not successfully. You can always go back and start over without the penalty, but you can also get past it, and whatever the case: it will at some point go away. In this case, the challenge of the game is STILL not to die, not to fail, but if you do it does not mean you need to "relapse".
Replace the "load saved game" option with "create character", and you get the very same situation in Vives. You can either die, and suffer a penalty that at some point, regardless of whether it is the first time or not, WILL tell you to relapse - a "game over" scenario. You can also die, and suffer a penalty you can work through, that is another challenging aspect of the game rather than a "game over" scenario - obviously you'd like to avoid it, but it's not the end of the world if you do. But in the first option, you can't REALLY relapse: creating a new character doesn't equal loading a saved game - it means starting the game over from the very beginning.
Vives can go either way. Neither option is more or less fundamentally flawed than the other, because the question of "what is fun?" is subjective. I only want to point out the difference: a permanent loss is permanent, it leads to a "game over" scenario sooner or later. Maybe not after the first death, maybe not after the second, or the third, or the fifth, but maybe at the sixth or seventh or ten. What is the difference between saying "if you die ten times anymore, or even just Maldovia, your character is permakilled" and saying "if you die ten times anymore, or even just Maldovia, your character becomes useless"? Ultimately, there is no difference, and you need to make a new character. That is assuming you don't want to spend the entire game just chatting to random people who happen not to be adventuring, or you like watching your character sit alone with no interaction - if you do, maybe NWN is not the game for you.
Now to the obvious question: why am I ignoring the possibility that something can restore lost ability points? For once, if ability points can be restored somehow, then the penalty cannot be considered permanent - it merely gets alleviated in a different manner. Second, if it is the DMs who are supposed to restore those points at their own discretion: even if you could call the penalty permanent by some twist of logic, I find the idea of the game mechanics relying on a DM to be preposterous - they're not here to keep the machine well oiled and running (they would've become, or already are, builders for that ), but rather to participate in the game from a different angle, definitely definitely not take care of petty player issues. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 10:07 PM |
It's a fine balance :)
We want the system to make people afraid of death, in order to eliminate just charging overpowered enemies because there's no penalty (happens with standard NWN/NWN2 XP systems, believe me........ the XP is recovered usually in 30 mins or so of bashing stuff)..... but we also don't want to make people "scared" of adventuring, if the penalty is too harsh.
Somewhere in between is where we (obviously) want to be! We can alter the system entirely, or we can tweak the existing system....... I favour the latter, as I quite like the current system to be honest..... and I've seen nothing (although there are some interesting ideas) that gets anywhere near the balance I mentioned above.
(1) XP. gain made challenge rating (CR) based rather than pool based.
It already is to a large extent.
(2) All multiclassing penalties negated. (If my rogue has had five fingers removed, at least he can become a wizard instead).
After looking at NWN2 mechanics a little......... this, I'm afraid, will not happen.
Instead of talking mechanics....... we should ignore them right now...... and actually talk about what we all want in terms of Death Penalties/XP Systems/ etc.....
Until we come to an agreement on balance and what the server should offer in terms of XP (and that's what we're talking about here).... then talking mechanics is fruitless.
Assuming, above, is what we seek to achieve then, without any thought (I'm famous for that :P) the easiest solution so far, is just to reduce the XP loss on death. I also personally like the idea of RP XP being immune to loss.... This should, perhaps also be extended to Questing XP.
Excuse the blabbering :)
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 11:18 PM |
I just got my computor upgraded and loaded up Vives 2 and am currently playing it. I kinda like how if one member of the party "falls" they are "revived" by the rest of the party at the end of the battle with 1 hit point. It allows for continuity to the story with the added problem of having a badly injured party member. Maybe in Vives we could do something similar as I have mentioned before.
You know, it seems to me that each of our different ideas is based on a different prefferance as to how much "fantasy" and how much "reality" we want to blend into the game. But in the end it is a game, and the xp penalty has been a huge detriment to the enjoyment of the game. If none of my ideas are good enough, I genuinely hope someone comes up with something you like.
JJ
I liked that system in NWN2 as it is very easily exploitable.
I'd not implement it in NWN2 unless I can fix the very large holes in it. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 11:34 PM |
I'd not implement it in NWN2 unless I can fix the very large holes in it.
Vives 2? or...wait what's going on here?...
:P |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 12 Nov 2007 11:45 PM |
Hi Guys,
Remember this is a discussion, mostly among players. Nothing has been set in stone - except for WA who gets both the features of Permadeath and Stat Loss - just because he's special
as for my thoughts:
Reducing/removing Multiclass XP penalties? Won't ever happen. That's hardcoded into the system and cannot be changed. It can be worked around, but I won't program that in. Multiclass PCs do very well on their own
Permadeath? I'm personally against it, although I do like the idea of a limited (but large) maximum number of lives
Permanent Stat Loss after death/respawn? I'm personally against it.
Temporary Stat Loss after death/respawn? Neither for or against.
XP Loss after death/respawn? I like Thain's system (no combat xp for a certain amount of IG time but you can still gain other quest and rp XP rewards). I'm also not against xp loss in general as I know of no other way to make death something to be feared. I'd drop xp loss in an instant if I could replace it with a system that inspires respect for death, but doesn't overly punish the players. (XP loss for RP focused characters is an unfair punishment in my opinion)
GP Loss after death/respawn? No problem with that. The world will always have problems with too much gold in it. Any ways of causing gold to disappear will be of great help.
Remember, these are my opionions only and not necessarily those that are set in stone, or are endorsed by the dm team in general.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 13 Nov 2007 04:56 AM |
Nothing has been set in stone - except for WA who gets both the features of Permadeath and Stat Loss - just because he's special
Awwww, and I thought you didn't care. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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