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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 07 Nov 2007 09:24 PM |
*strikes a casual pose leaning against an alley wall, chews on a toothpick, adjusts collar, polishes knuckles on shirt*
Youda thunk theyda guest it by now. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 07 Nov 2007 09:28 PM |
| You can't hide from us all. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 07 Nov 2007 10:09 PM |
SpaciousQ would be my guess...by whatever incarnation. Likely the elven sorceror. With the lovely name.
SQ?
HAhahhjhaAHahahaahahHAHahahhahaHAA
*cough*
No, but she is near the record holder for the slowest levelled PC. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 01:41 AM |
SpaciousQ would be my guess...by whatever incarnation. Likely the elven sorceror. With the lovely name.
SQ?
HAhahhjhaAHahahaahahHAHahahhahaHAA
*cough*
No, but she is near the record holder for the slowest levelled PC.
Is she slower then Tasra?
No, I don't think that's quite possible. An NPC levels faster than Tasra... |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 02:20 AM |
| It's true. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 05:47 AM |
*cough*
No, but she is near the record holder for the slowest levelled PC.
Hardly...Ygsdrasil Elan I believe was easily the "winner" there. =P |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 07:42 AM |
And what is the problem with slow leveling? You're just jealous because I can savor my time with each level, like a fine wine.
And besides, when you die as many times as I do, and to as many different things, just about EVERYTHING gives 5 XP... |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 07:44 AM |
| I would think my penchant for respawn marathons would put Timik near the top as well. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 10:52 AM |
In the last three months,. the two players with the slowest levelling PCs and with a signficant amount of time IG (over 100 hours) are PCs belonging to Gothwick (Kalid D'mar) and Kalannar777 (Kalannar Illistynn (V))
Congratulations to the both of you for putting RP ahead of xp grinding.
I'll have a little something for you both the next time I catch you IG. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 10:53 AM |
Timik is up with the lead pack.
But our leaders in slow XP are Kalid and Kalannar.
[Edit]Blast
that is what I get for starting a post then making food before clicking send.
So uh yeah!
Macha Sparrowsong is up there too![/edit] |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 12:14 PM |
All I know is that Hans is at level 15, taking an average of 42.86666 hours of play-time per level. I don't have the level stats on anyone else though, since it's not in the dirtnap files Kalid and Kalannar might have me beat though, simply because they both have twice as much time in game as Hans :o |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 08 Nov 2007 12:51 PM |
| I've noticed that Eltarial is slowly loosing xp the more I play I am sure with a bit of time I could beat the lot of you. :) |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 10 Nov 2007 08:54 AM |
All I know is that Hans is at level 15, taking an average of 42.86666 hours of play-time per level.
Hey Tas, you lose! Alis' average is 50,4352941 hours! *manic laughter* |
IG character: Alis Rapidshill |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 10 Nov 2007 09:37 AM |
All I know is that Hans is at level 15, taking an average of 42.86666 hours of play-time per level.
Hey Tas, you lose! Alis' average is 50,4352941 hours! *manic laughter*
Just a little something for those of you who called JJ a "power leveler" and a "Meta gamer" back in the day.
86.875 hours per level :P
Nuff sed |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 10 Nov 2007 02:31 PM |
:)
Well you knew the guyver'd show up sooner or later to drop his 2cp in, so here goes...
As usual, my suggestion is prolly real hard to program, but *shrugs* hey here it is.
Chunk Swordslinger 19th level Scull Crusher has 10 xp to go to get to 20 He rounds a corner in a dungeon and steps on a epic trap some evil DM left there from a few hours before when he was messing with some adventuring gnomes. Long story short... Chunk lands up at the Sisters with a bad headache, and 4010 xp to go to get to lvl 20. Ouch.
There have been many times, (and I know that I am not alone), that this happening to Johe gave me a sick feeling in my stomach, and caused me to log off in a huff and do anything BUT play Vives for quite some time. Is that the intention of our esteemed DM crew? Some might say yes, because it causes that "fear of death" thing that, I will admit, and agree is quite important. However, I don't believe that the DM crew intends for that fear of death to turn into a severe dislike for the game, when that fear turns into a sickening reality that slaps you in the face and says "Hardy Har Har! you just wasted the last 10 hours of your life getting a bunch of combat xp, and that DM bonus you got for that EXCELLENT bit of RP between you and that drunken mage with the mondo fireball spell he was going to unleash on Brandibuck? GONE! HAHAHAHA!!!" Well...everyone but PDW I'll bet ;)...
So what I am suggesting is taking a long look at what happens to our little avatar friends when they in fact do snuff it, and figure out a way to do it that creates a fear of death, while being realistic, but not creating any negative feelings toward the game itself.
The reincarnation idea, just doesn't do anything for me. Some of us put a great deal of work into the psyce of our characters, and frankly, the reincarnation would be as bad as permadeath for those characters.
I, for one, would like to see something along the lines of a small, token, xp loss (say .5 % or so), along with the no xp restriction (combat and discovery xp mind you, half dead people who can still RP their butts off deserve whatever the DM's want to give 'em), for whatever amount of time you come up with, wether it be an hour or whatever. But along with this I'd like to see the TRUE physical aspects of what I imagine it must be like to be revived from a severe a$$whoopin'. A lot of good RP'ers try to do this in Vives 1, but imagine how interesting things would get if EVERYONE, had these post death difficulties?Strength decreased by 1/2, slowly returning over a period of time equal to the amount of time the PC can't get xp. Con and Dex decreased by 1/2 as well, and returning slowly. This allows for a lot of interesting things to still happen to the PC, but doesn't penalize that PC xp that he or she earned through a lot of effort prior to his or her untimely demise. For those of you who don't think this is "tough" enough, it may, (if you think about it) be TOO tough. Imagine a party going into a tough dungeon. Chunk Swordslinger falls in a shower of Atalan arrows. He is dragged to shelter and raised by Goud E. Tooshoos the cleric but now he can barely carry the armor he's wearing , let alone heft that massive sword. Now the party has to figure out a way to get the hells out of there AND bring Chunk's stuff along too.
well...
anyway...
there it is :)
EDIT: Yes I AM saying this should be something that happens wther a Cleric raises you or not. The cleric raising you could then become a more "believable stunt", and maybe we could make it less taxing on the cleric to cast the spell as long as it has it's limits? Then there's also the "buffs" that could come into play etc etc AND you can bet it makes death SCARY as hellll!!! ;)
So, just read through all the posts here and Johe's idea here jumped out at me too. The sick feeling in my stomach is one I can surely relate to. I know with Talion I've had those moments that I just couldn't force myself to play after a respawn which came about by stupid actions on my part. I remeber a time the Xaranthir, Talion, and Fennigan (I think) went to have a look at the durzagon caves when it was still a fairly new area and we all ended up with a respawn. I can't recall exactly how much but PD lost months worth of experience from one misstep. With a character that is completely roleplayed from what I've seen. Any time Xaranthir is about, he's not running about killing things to kill them, the character always has a goal. The main point here is characters that don't focus on experience are most hurt by a loss of whats already been gained. And there is the old quote one can fall back on - "What doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger." If a character gets beaten near to death but survives I'd think thats a hell of a learning experience, expecting of course if in the beating he somehow loses potions of his memory. *shrugs* Anyway... the idea of weakening a character upon respawn or to a lesser degree, ressurection just seems to make more sense. Instead of a situation where you've lost a week, a month, or even months of work developing this character and so the inclination is to go out and fix that situation (go on a mass killing spree) which certianly doesn't suit someone that just nearly died you have characters that are taking stock of themselves, happy to be alive.
-- In my early days a group of us tackled the hydra caves back when the big bad one was still around. I think Impervious might be the only player still around that was in that group but everyone there were great roleplayers and rather new to the server. (Didn't know you could only hurt the hydra with fire). So we get into this fight, Talion luckily... or unluckly as things turned out had flame weapon cast on him before hand and is the only person in the group hurting the thing out of four or five people. The battle was EPIC, everyone roleplaying throughout, Tal there screaming for help and everyone running around in a panic. The hydra is weakening barely able to stand but manages one final attack which finishes Talion. Out of the shadows comes a death masked stranger with a flaming scythe laying low the creature moments after Talion is brought down. She saves his life and all his companions and then just as quickly disappears. *Jump forward- Tal respawns having been taking to the sisters to treat his near mortal wounds and thus starts one of my most memorable role playing moments. Talion is recovering from a fight that nearly killed him, he can barely walk let alone fight and so turns his attention to discovering the identiy of the person who saved his life just in the nick of time. ((He figured it out about two years later)).--
This just seems to be more resonable a responce to nearly dying then grabbing his sword and running back after the critter that just killed him. So... to sum this all up, causing effects into the present situation (By way of stat loss, or some other means) rather then effecting whats already happened (taking experience) seems not just more realistic, but also a more player friendly method. And just as much something to avoid. Death in Vives has all the ongoing effects that drinking in Vives does... none. But when Lucius Edmonds was in game he went on a drinking bing, tossing back dozens of drinks all the the effect of 1 int loss. A drunken wizard would be more likely to kill himself then a monster and a recently near death warrior is more likely to die to a goblin then he is to save the day.
.... I should go over this and clarify things but I haven't got the time, so I hope it makes some sense... Anyway... Props to Johe for a great idea. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 10 Nov 2007 05:34 PM |
If you'll allow me mista Moriarty, and if I'm feeling your "vibe" right, you're REAL close to making a very good point, and if you didn't mean this then -I'm- gonna make a real good point, and that is this...
On a server that holds RP in the highest regard, and encourages everyone to rp their chainmail off. The taking away of mass chunks of xp when they die isn't condusive to said roleplay, and here's why...
-Concider the actual amount of xp that comes from killing monsters after our friend Chunk Swordslinger has reached...oh I dunno... level 13 or 14, 99% of the mobs he kills are worth 5xp woopdeedoo! Is that REALLY where most of his xp comes from once he hits the higher levels??? NO! I respectfully submit that the higher percentage of mister Swordslingers' xp comes from the very RP the DM's and us players want to see. BUT the DM's aren't always around, so...what's the first thing a player (who doesn't log off in a huff and not play for a week), do when they wake up at the sisters 9 times out of 10? I'd say most of them go straight out and start killing stuff to try and at least "ease" the loss they just got, and I believe that what my friend Moriarty is trying to say is, WHERE'S THE RP IN THAT? and I agree with him. Penalizing death by reducing (and taxing) a players RP is, I'm sure, NOT what was intended, but I would submit that it IS what happens under the current system, and Moriarty and I are just two of, I would expect, MANY examples of this. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 10 Nov 2007 06:04 PM |
I was called away, now to finish my thought...
On an RP intensive server, I think that "fear of death" is as much an rp thing as it is a rl thing. A good rp'er won't go out looking for trouble right after they level, with no fear eventhough if he/she dies they will only lose a couple hundred xp, and if they do what in the current system is going to stop them? A system where no xp is to be gained for X amount of time would at least cause a consistent fear if not the same amount of fear. And, frankly, no matter what system you folks decide on, I really think we need some kind of physical repercussion from being dead or near death. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 10 Nov 2007 06:46 PM |
Dear powers-that-be and their alien overlords, Johe! You didn't make it a good point at all!
(Hah! There's a counterbalance to me agreeing with you a few posts back!)
I saw Moriarty's point in a wholly different way. Not to say: "we lose the RP factor when we lose XP because we want to get it back" - that's a flaw in the player, not the system. Though it may or may not have been the point, or one point, I took the sample in a different meaning.
An event in which death occurs can still be a very memorable RP moment. Death (in a mechanic term), overall, can be very memorable and a good source of roleplay. Even in the most enjoyable event in the entire history of all histories divided by 0 can crash because of death and respawn, the fun going down the drain along with the work of weeks and months of character development. You don't have to be a powergamer who cares only about XP to have that fun taken away, it happens even to the best of us: we die, respawn, lose all that hard work, and lose the incentive to keep playing for a while.
It's not that I don't agree with what Johe said either. It's completely true, but I don't see the issue as the main flaw of XP loss.
This is a tricky road to follow, when considering the existence of XP loss altogether. Other punishments might not be serious enough to thwart players from taking stupid risks with characters and disregarding the possibility of death. I can honestly say that I don't see an afterdeath penalty having the same effect as XP loss, but the effect of respawning also has plenty of negative sides.
Thinking about it on a broader term, if XP was never lost, and only gained, how would that effect the level curve? If Alton had never died, all that XP he "wouldn't have lost" would likely bring him to his level thirties by now. It is an important point to consider, as I can easily see the lack of XP loss forcing changes on the XP system altogether. If no experience can be lost ever, should it be gained more slowly as well so that the desired level curve could be maintained? |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 11 Nov 2007 02:57 AM |
I think you're missing the point. I never said it was the MAIN issue of xp loss, but it is most certainly an issue.
Let me put this to you in a simpler fashion.
You extol RP. The DM's want it I want it You want a fear of death. I agree with that. What if the period of no XP after death was an IG month, would that scare you enough? What I am saying is thatthe fear needs to be consistant for everybody. ie the SAME fear for the SAME death for EVERYONE. Back when I was playing 40 hours a week, losing 4000 xp was annoying, but not back breaking. Now that I get MAYBE 8 hours a week to play, you can bet your arse if I lose 32 hours worth of xp I won't be around for long.
This is an RP server. If nothing is a good enough penalty for death but massive xp loss to generate this fear of death you are so up on then I find myself asking "why not force RP in other areas?" We have trusted so many good RP'ers to RP so many things, and yet you seem to think that lightening the load will suddenly make them go ape shite and turn Vives 2 into Peewee's Playhouse? And I guess what I am saying is that the penalties I am suggesting are NOT light by any stretch of the imagination, it's just that I guess I need YOU to stretch yours.
As to the level curve, ... you illustrate my point that you don't get mine. All I am suggesting is taking the xp from the "front end" instead of the "back end" if you die and can't get xp for X amount of time, or if you die and have a bunch of it whacked off of a pool of xp you earned with good RP either way you are slowed down. To me the former is prefferable because then I don't feel like a chump who wasted hours RP'ing so that I could lose it all on a death that may be stupid, or heroic, or accidental, or some Noobs fault cus he trained me, or a DM's trap left somewhere that was meant for someone else who logged off 6 hours ago... Are you feeling me now??
Also if you die and can't earn xp except through RP bonuses, doesn't that richen the Rp "pot" as it were? |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 11 Nov 2007 10:57 AM |
((Woke up and wrote a novel here this AM - better than working on the diss!))
I like these ideas just fine:
1. Various debilitating penalties to the ability scores after respawn, to last some period of time to simulate "recovery".
I liked this suggestion immediately, because its creates circumstances that I think are more realistic. But then again I put logistics above heroism, and tend towards simulation rather than fantasy. Those are my appetites, and they don't necessarily match with everyones' or the server's.
I'd like to see this applied to respawns and also the lesser of the bring-back-to-life smells (raise dead? I dunno). Say -4 to all abilities until the next rest, or maybe the next reset, or somesuch (will Vives 2 reset at all? Heh...). Respawning and jumping right back into the action is just kind of goofy, and I think being raised from the dead and jumping right back into the fight is goofy too. W/ -4 to strength you probably couldn't even carry all your equipment... as it should be after you've been killed! You'd lose spells you'd memorized, etc.
On the other hand, sometimes its necessary to respawn and jump back in, for instance if you're responsible for some low-level characters being in a high-level area. And the above would create some serious logistical problems... might not want to derail a DM-ed adventure in this way.
But I think in principle, a death/grievous injury in the party should slow down the entire party, and two or three should derail the adventure. With this "respawn curse" the party would have a fifth wheel to nurse along. Not fun to be the fifth wheel? Find different ways to contribute to everyone else's survival, or RP it up. That's fun.
1a. Somebody mentioned the permanent loss of one random ability point. That also got my attention.
I mention this because it got my attention. It really got my attention! This is one of the things mentioned so far that is worse (read: harsher) than the current respawning penalty, short of the chance of permadeth. You can always make up lost XP. If this replaced the XP penalty Vives currently uses, people would still fear death, no question.
Each ability point lowered would be a mark on the character, which I like. Even with the bonus ability points as you level up, you wouldn't have so many übers running around, players would have less ability to control what their scores are... and what their dump scores are, which I really like, introducing that randomness and hard knocks to the character's history. Players who risk death frequently would wind up cripples maybe, and only truly exceptional characters would reach the high levels and also retain their high ability scores.
Then again... Vrodo's got over 100 deaths, probably 80 or so of those are respawns. Most folks have 30 or 40 respawns by the time they get leveled up to the low teens. What would be left of them?? Maybe it should be just a 50/50 chance of losing a random ability point permanently. Maybe a 30/70 chance.
I would say the DMs could restore these ability points after a period of time, on a selective basis, but I don't think the combined DMing power of Vives could keep up w/ the whole whacky player base respawing away. Keeping track of who lost what, that's not how I want the DMs to spend their precious minutes.
2. No XP earned from combat for a period of time after a respawn.
I also like this, although I think its a lighter sentence than losing XP as currently implemented, for the simple reason that you can plan around it.
On the other hand, no XP from combat (or XP from other sources? Crafting?) for a week or a month means that character really won't level for a week or a month, unless they were pretty close and can then RP it up. On a 40-hour week you can level most characters in Vives1, not so dedicated play you can expect to level in a month or more if you don't take any hits from respawning.
So anyway, that's out there and you look forward to it. Maybe you've got items you can't use for a couple more levels, etc. Doubling the time until your next level up - just one benchmark in the character's progress - yeah, I'd say that's a pretty serious penalty for respawning. If I knew that death meant 2 weeks before I could go from level 4 to level 5, I'd watch my step!
The interval... If I respawn once a week, and the period of the penalty is once a week, then I'm getting nothing from combat for my time on the server. I think the servers I've seen this implemented on give you a cool down period of a few hours, not weeks. That's no big deal. But a week or a month where you couldn't earn XP from combat, etc... woof! Would people just leave the server and come back after the period was over? Some would, I wouldn't.
Also, once the penalty hit, would they just start respawning willy-nilly and throwing themselves at the same monster over and over, the thing I think the DMs are really trying to discourage? What would be left to lose? (Why would they do this if they didn't get the XP? Maybe to help their party get the XP... why do players do anything?).
...
We seem to be up in the air about whether these penalties should also result from being raised - whether this should be a respawn penalty or a death penalty (right now Vives does not penalize death per se). It seems to hang on whether raise dead/resurrection would be nerfed, or made into an epic spell by its treatment vis-a-vis these penalties. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 11 Nov 2007 01:00 PM |
1. Various debilitating penalties to the ability scores after respawn, to last some period of time to simulate "recovery".
I liked this suggestion immediately, because its creates circumstances that I think are more realistic. But then again I put logistics above heroism, and tend towards simulation rather than fantasy. Those are my appetites, and they don't necessarily match with everyones' or the server's.
. . .
On the other hand, sometimes its necessary to respawn and jump back in, for instance if you're responsible for some low-level characters being in a high-level area. And the above would create some serious logistical problems... might not want to derail a DM-ed adventure in this way.
But I think in principle, a death/grievous injury in the party should slow down the entire party, and two or three should derail the adventure. With this "respawn curse" the party would have a fifth wheel to nurse along. Not fun to be the fifth wheel? Find different ways to contribute to everyone else's survival, or RP it up. That's fun.
Agreed. I'd like to see it too, even regardless of other penalties. It contributes a whole lot to simulation and RP. However, I also see your point of logistic problem - an entire event can be thrown off if the party is crippled.
Perhaps, like you said, the penalties could ease up or disappear after resting, thus giving the players some control over their condition - much like a PC can rest to refresh his abilities. This could be an option only for resurrected characters (via spell, on the field), while respawned characters will have to wait whatever penalty period.
1a. Somebody mentioned the permanent loss of one random ability point. That also got my attention.
I mention this because it got my attention. It really got my attention! This is one of the things mentioned so far that is worse (read: harsher) than the current respawning penalty, short of the chance of permadeth. You can always make up lost XP. If this replaced the XP penalty Vives currently uses, people would still fear death, no question.
Each ability point lowered would be a mark on the character, which I like. Even with the bonus ability points as you level up, you wouldn't have so many übers running around, players would have less ability to control what their scores are... and what their dump scores are, which I really like, introducing that randomness and hard knocks to the character's history. Players who risk death frequently would wind up cripples maybe, and only truly exceptional characters would reach the high levels and also retain their high ability scores.</quote>
I have to both agree and disagree. Yes, this is harsher than XP loss, but I say if we're going to go so harsh might as well bring in permadeath. I know for sure that if my character suffered extensive permanent penalties, I would very quickly stopped playing it and start over a new one, and I can vouch others would too. And then start over again, and again, and again, because characters keep dying and become permanently crippled.
Then again... Vrodo's got over 100 deaths, probably 80 or so of those are respawns. Most folks have 30 or 40 respawns by the time they get leveled up to the low teens. What would be left of them?? Maybe it should be just a 50/50 chance of losing a random ability point permanently. Maybe a 30/70 chance.
My point exactly. Even with a small chance of it happening, the amount of deaths is pretty high that heavy crippling would still occur rather quickly. PCs die all the time, and relatively often.
2. No XP earned from combat for a period of time after a respawn.
. . .
The interval... If I respawn once a week, and the period of the penalty is once a week, then I'm getting nothing from combat for my time on the server. I think the servers I've seen this implemented on give you a cool down period of a few hours, not weeks. That's no big deal. But a week or a month where you couldn't earn XP from combat, etc... woof! Would people just leave the server and come back after the period was over? Some would, I wouldn't.
Also, once the penalty hit, would they just start respawning willy-nilly and throwing themselves at the same monster over and over, the thing I think the DMs are really trying to discourage? What would be left to lose? (Why would they do this if they didn't get the XP? Maybe to help their party get the XP... why do players do anything?).
That's exactly the problem here. This system can be bypassed and taken advantage of in many ways. Once you are hit by the penalty period, you can afford to take chances that others won't. The scaring factor only works when you're FREE of that penalty, but once you're inside there is nothing to fear. I could take unnecessary risks in events, feel free to ignore the consequences of my PCs actions, and completely disregard death. Even if the penalty would be reapplied with each death all over, I could still decide exactly when and why I want to start being careful again, for my own reasons. Weakening by death would not prevent that as it cannot last too long without hurting the player in the long run.
Here's an example: I am a level 15 cleric and I'm looting Dungeon A. Not for XP, not for RP, not for anything but those cool items at the end of the road. Whoops! I died, and I respawned. Now I won't earn any XP, but I can still go back once the weakening period is over and loot that place as much as I want, until I get those items!
We seem to be up in the air about whether these penalties should also result from being raised - whether this should be a respawn penalty or a death penalty (right now Vives does not penalize death per se). It seems to hang on whether raise dead/resurrection would be nerfed, or made into an epic spell by its treatment vis-a-vis these penalties.
I can conclude that I don't find the afterdeath XP prevention creating the desired effect on dying, not nearly as much as losing XP does. That doesn't mean I don't like the idea of an afterdeath penalty rather than an XP loss, but the current proposals are not "good enough", and I honestly can't think of anything else that is.
Better love and lost than never love at all is a romantic notion, not a true one. If I prevent a man from ever becoming rich, or take away all the wealth of a man who is rich, which would have a greater impact? A man who lived in modesty all his life would not mind never becoming rich, at least not as terribly as a man who knew luxury all his life and was suddenly thrown into poverty.
I'd rather see a harsh penalty that achieves the effect we want, rather than an easy one that fails to accomplish that same goal. The easy road isn't always the best road to take. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 11 Nov 2007 02:16 PM |
Depending on the way in which xp is gained, preventing a character from gaining xp for a time after respawn could actually be harsher than taking the xp away to begin with. As a basic example: if during the period of no xp. gain after a respawn a character enters a new area then that section of the xp pool becomes unavailable to them, (this works the same for every kind of xp).
Using a system more similar to that I suggested in the xp functions thread would prevent this from being an issue but I still wouldn't recommend having these consequences for respawn for the reasons given by renter and WA.
I do not think that a system of respawn involving any permanent drain to abilities would create the effect we want. As has already been mentioned, this could easily lead to PCs decreasing in CR. It would have a particularly harsh effect on spellcasting classes as these need a minimum of 10+spell level in their casting attribute to use their class abilities.
Other than this, as far as I can see any of these ideas for respawn would work fine so long as the xp functions are written to take account of them. I don't see it as a problem that a character should not be used for a time because penalties to ability scores lasting a duration measured in real time. This could punish the character an equivalent amount to a percentage decrease in xp (although the psychological difference mentioned by WA should not be taken for granted).
On the other hand, sometimes its necessary to respawn and jump back in, for instance if you're responsible for some low-level characters being in a high-level area. And the above would create some serious logistical problems... might not want to derail a DM-ed adventure in this way.
This is a very good argument against Johes temporary ability loss (TAL?) idea. This could be sufficient reason in its self not to implement this penalty. I can see two ways round this.
1) Give DMs the ability to waive these penalties.
I suspect this is very hard to script. It would also not cover similar situations where no DM is present.
2) Give players a choice of what penalty they take.
Even though this was originally my idea I don't think it should be used in this way.
PS. I apologise for the poor structure of this post. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 11 Nov 2007 05:07 PM |
1) I like the idea of temporary ability losses...relatively long ones too, not just something that one rest could cure...something that might require several days of IG or RL to cure...or what about the effect of the Called Shot Feat...making you move slower or giving you a -2 to hit for a while?...is there a way to disable one arm temporarily so you could only carry things in one hand?...What if you died several times in a short amount of time, there was then a chance the ability loss could be permanent, to represent the severe punishment your body was taking?...In any event, I think this is the way to go, however the details get worked out.
2) But I don't think we should limit it to that...in addition to ability loss, I think a minor xp loss is also in order. Not nearly as anything as severe in Vives1 right now, but a light tap. If there's a way to distinguish how XP is gained through different methods, it would be a great to have the loss just come from combat xp, thus possibly limiting how much you might lose if you've gained a lot from crafting, rp, questing, etc.
3) I also don't have a problem with a short period of time after death when you can't gain any xp, or at least from combat (again, if there's any way to distinguish).
No, I don't think it would be such a burden to bear if I died and had to face all three penalties. The thing that annoys me most about Vives1 when I die is the large amount of XP lost. A combination of several lighter penalties combined feels to me just about right. I don't think it's overkill, but that's just me.
4) I think Raise Dead/Resurrection could help the PC ignore any ability losses (since the god is intervening and providing "divine" power or whatever reason you can come up), but still face limited xp losses/prohibitions described in 2 and 3 above. But again, perhaps, if you were raised 2 or 3 times in short succession, there would be a ability gain penalty (the god growing annoyed?).... |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 11 Nov 2007 05:13 PM |
On the other hand, sometimes its necessary to respawn and jump back in, for instance if you're responsible for some low-level characters being in a high-level area. And the above would create some serious logistical problems... might not want to derail a DM-ed adventure in this way.
This is a very good argument against Johes temporary ability loss (TAL?) idea. This could be sufficient reason in its self not to implement this penalty. I can see two ways round this.
It's not very realistic...ok it is a fantasy world still.... better that they should recover slowly...and the that culprits should slink away. Things change....as it was said before....a dm's job is to make it challenging and interesting...why should not the death of a main character affect the outcome of the story...so maybe that low level would think twice before following that dwarf with a bull's brains? |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 11 Nov 2007 06:19 PM |
On the other hand, sometimes its necessary to respawn and jump back in, for instance if you're responsible for some low-level characters being in a high-level area. And the above would create some serious logistical problems... might not want to derail a DM-ed adventure in this way.
This is a very good argument against Johes temporary ability loss (TAL?) idea. This could be sufficient reason in its self not to implement this penalty. I can see two ways round this.
It's not very realistic...ok it is a fantasy world still.... better that they should recover slowly...and the that culprits should slink away. Things change....as it was said before....a dm's job is to make it challenging and interesting...why should not the death of a main character affect the outcome of the story...so maybe that low level would think twice before following that dwarf with a bull's brains?
LOL fair enough. I was thinking about total party kills where somebody's got to bite the bullet. Respawn, go back and raise everybody, or go find help from a cleric. Its an exploit, but its exploited with the best of intentions. Making the whole party respawn seems kind of cold, though this is technically the correct thing to do. I'm also open to Ygsdrasil's alternative, where good intentions count for shite and when things go wrong they go reeeeally wrong.
On the other points, I wasn't arguing against Johe's suggestions, or about the "post-respawn XP penalty" per se. The post-respawn XP penalty just seems like something a player can plan around, which makes it less of a penalty. One fix would be if each "no-XP sentence" were served non-consecutively, so that if you respawned twice in a row you'd do two terms instead of starting the clock over with your second one. That would extend the risks and give you a reason to be careful.
I'm not sure about the idea of giving players a choice of penalties for respawning. Again, players will quickly figure out which ones hurt them the least. I don't think this will be a personal decision, I think there will be one penalty that becomes the obvious penalty to take, and everyone will take it. Personally I'd rather see the same penalty applied across the boards. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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