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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 02:45 PM |
My first character, Eltarial suffered a lot and would have suffered more had I not changed the way I played the character.
If your trying to argue the current system is realistic, then thats a completely different matter. You've created a system where a fighter/rogue will gain less xp for picking locks than a rogue and less xp for combat than a fighter. In some ways this may seem to make sense, but consider:
Should this character gain a level (for arguments sake in fighter), and then pick locks until gaining another level this time in rogue, then the character will have had to pick many more locks to progress in lock picking than would a single class rogue, or even a rogue/wizard.
In fact, this character is likely to be a brigand or similar and has taken the rogue level for the purpose of sneak attack rather than skills. For this reason his skills (if chosen based on RP value) are likely to be: Hide, Move silently, (for ambushes) Appraise (for selling loot), Lore (so he knows good loot when he sees it), Persuade (your money or your live), Bluff (I didn't do it), Tumble (for getaways).
This character would not even be able to gain the lock picking xp. All he would get is a reduced portion of combat xp, despite the fact that he is a single class highway robber.
Alright so you don't get many PC highway robbers, but you might if the xp system was different. Other examples of characters that might fall afoul of the system include:
The refugee house wife (favored soul/cleric)
The regimental musician (figher/bard)
The inquisitor (paladin/rogue)
And of course, the conventional racial variants:
The Elven boarder guard (ranger/wizard)
The Halfling yokel (favored soul/rogue)
(deleted ranger/rogue) |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:14 PM |
My first character, Eltarial suffered a lot and would have suffered more had I not changed the way I played the character.
If your trying to argue the current system is realistic, then thats a completely different matter. You've created a system where a fighter/rogue will gain less xp for picking locks than a rogue and less xp for combat than a fighter. In some ways this may seem to make sense, but consider:
Should this character gain a level (for arguments sake in fighter), and then pick locks until gaining another level this time in rogue, then the character will have had to pick many more locks to progress in lock picking than would a single class rogue, or even a rogue/wizard.
In fact, this character is likely to be a brigand or similar and has taken the rogue level for the purpose of sneak attack rather than skills. For this reason his skills (if chosen based on RP value) are likely to be: Hide, Move silently, (for ambushes) Appraise (for selling loot), Lore (so he knows good loot when he sees it), Persuade (your money or your live), Bluff (I didn't do it), Tumble (for getaways).
This character would not even be able to gain the lock picking xp. All he would get is a reduced portion of combat xp, despite the fact that he is a single class highway robber.
Alright so you don't get many PC highway robbers, but you might if the xp system was different.
At present........ if you multiclass..... then you are widening your XP pool I think no? So if you're a fighter then you're getting good combat XP, and a few other small things..... but a fighter/mage would get the combat XP PLUS the spellcasting? Similar, say, for fighter/rogue or rogue/wizard?
It's impossible to balance everything out completely, someone as regards to XP/game mechanics will always lose out..... but then, what usually happens is that if it's immediately obvious that a person has created a "weak" character, the dm's would compensate.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, sorry You want Multi-classing penalties removed alltogether? For me it makes perfect sense to penalise them a little in regards to XP.
A very confused
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:14 PM |
From my experience I can only say that the current system in Vives is /very/ multiclass-friendly. You want bard spells and roleplay value, you make a bard and get only 20% of combat xp, but 100% for exploring and 50% for spellcasting (simplified, no idea what the real values are).
You want a fighter, you get 100% for combat and only 20% of exploring xp and obviously nothing for casting, since you can't cast.
And if you want both, you get a, say lvl 5 fighter/level 5 bard who's getting 50% combat xp, 50% exploring xp and some extra like 10% for the spellcasting too. I think this is a very fair system. Of course there might be classes or class combinations that can squeeze out a few xp more or less, but so far I never had the impression my class choice was "2nd class", I always had enough options to level at roughly the same rate as anyone else, even if I made a... um... bard/pm/harper or such.
So, if you made a rogue but don't want to use the trap/lock xp option, then I'd just recommend keeping the rogue levels low and take more fighter levels to raise the combat xp. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:26 PM |
Alright then, how about point 6?
Who decides what is in character for your PC and what not? If you don't want a server full of stereotypes, I don't know how that should be possible. The only person who really knows what is IC for my character and what not is me, the one who created the char. I don't want to be policed like "you chose to be a rogue, it is not IC for you to save that princess from that tower, so no reward for you. Go pickpocketing.". Of course it's a good idea to reward certain skills like disabling traps, but the player should always have the option to go another route without facing a penalty for it. And as long as the player can't give out xp for himself, I really don't know how to reward this...
Just in case this was misunderstood, I didn't mean that the current system supports stereotypes.
My point was that if the system was changed to reward in character actions, I'd fear that the /change/ would support stereotypes. because someone would have to define what is IC or not. In that case, I'd probably end up with an elf from Ferein who has to act exactly like an elf from Ferein should, otherwise no xp. Or as a bard who must be a great singer - my bard Gledia is no singer, she's a painter, so she'd probably get no xp. That's what I wouldn't like, I don't like playing stereotypes. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:30 PM |
What you are forgetting is that any character is only fighting, picking locks, casting, crafting, exploring at any one time. There are exceptions, a wizard can gain casting and combat xp at once, and a rogue may (occasionally) gain ability use and exploring xp at once, but on the whole a character only gains xp from one scores at a time.
So a multiclass character may have many route of xp gain available to him, but his xp gain will be roughly half the speed of a single class character, as he is only gaining xp from one source at a time. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:34 PM |
Classes, in my perception, are a set of abilities/proficiencies. You get XP for using the abilities/proficiencies given to your by your chosen class, whether combat for a fighter, casting for a wizard, skills for a rogue, et cetera.
It also does well to "balance" things by giving you less XP for each proficiency as your character's branch out. A cleric can cast as well as fight, so he gets an amount for both, but not as high as a primary caster (wizard) or a primary fighter (duh, fighter). For example: if a wizard receives 100% XP from casting a spell and 0% from beating a monster, while a fighter receives 0% for casting a spell and 100% for beating a monster, then a cleric receives 50% for both. The more you branch out, the less you learn from each branch.
The system isn't perfect, but nothing is. I daresay even our scripting gurus are familiar with the concept of learning from experience and mistakes, and we'll face an improved version of the current XP system for Vives2.
Anything else is too much of an unneeded effort.
P.S. (did I just sneak in a snipe there somewhere? Yes I did!) |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:40 PM |
| The example you gave works fine. At least, if the xp gain is the same for both casting and fighting. Skill use is a completely different kettle of fish. Exploring also cannot be treated this way. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 04:08 PM |
What you are forgetting is that any character is only fighting, picking locks, casting, crafting, exploring at any one time. There are exceptions, a wizard can gain casting and combat xp at once, and a rogue may (occasionally) gain ability use and exploring xp at once, but on the whole a character only gains xp from one scores at a time.
So a multiclass character may have many route of xp gain available to him, but his xp gain will be roughly half the speed of a single class character, as he is only gaining xp from one source at a time.
Sorry, I don't get this. A fighter travels with a, say, bard/rogue from, um.. Buckshire to Brandibuck. On the way the bard/rogue makes a shitload of xp with his high exploring modifier and the pure fighter watches him levelling while killing the occasional rat here and there. Finally they run into a horde of Ettins and the fighter kills them all easily and makes a level or two with his high combat modifier while the bard/rogue gains a small extra xp assisting him. In the end both have made two levels and are happy. This is how it works, no? I don't really get how this system is unfair. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 04:34 PM |
The system is a lot more complicated than that Casa.
Discovery xp is only gained once, but combat xp is gained for each and every combat. At first the fighter will level more slowly than the bard rogue, then as discovery xp from safeish areas get used up the fighter will begin to draw level. The bard/rogue will be picking locks and disabling traps if he can find enough of them. The fighers xp gain will also be decreasing due to fighting the same kind of creatures. Then the fighter will become sufficiently powerful to go to areas too dangerous for the rogue/bard. Next the rogue/bard gains invisibility and can go to more areas (but likely gets killed by something with true seeing). It's near impossible to say which will gain xp the fastest but unless the builders are very careful about what goes where. One of the two characters will eventually get ahead of the other.
The system vives uses is incredibly complicated. By the sound of things the builders are trying to get the system right by trial and improvement which also won't help at all. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 05:01 PM |
That was a very simplified version of what happens, and I know the Vives system is very complicated (as I said before, I'm still trying to steal it! ). But here's the point:
"It's near impossible to say which will gain xp the fastest but unless the builders are very careful about what goes where. One of the two characters will eventually get ahead of the other."
You're absolutely right. Because I can't tell you who'll gain xp faster, and that's actually as good as a proof that this system seems to work quite fine - in any other system I've seen so far I can tell you pretty much exactly which char levels faster (usually the one who can kill as many foes as possible as fast as possible). As long as I don't see a real disadvantage for anyone here, I can only say never change a running system.
And in the end it will always fall back to: Who's spending most time ingame, who has more free time to adventure/craft/whatever and who has only a limited amount of time to play per week? |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 05:07 PM |
Just because a system is too complicated to fathom does not mean that its going to work. I find it hard to believe I've had to type that.
This system will only work if the builders put everything in the correct place. Otherwise it will be biased. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 05:15 PM |
All I said is that this system /appears to me/ to work fine. I have no idea what you're getting at, I don't say this system is complicated so it has to work fine, I'm only saying it /does/ work fine, and I couldn't care less about how many lines of code were required for it.
I have about 15 different characters in my servervault here, including everything from tough powerbuild to totally useless (in a game mechanical sense) RP character, and none of them had any apparent disadvantages. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 05:56 PM |
The system vives uses is incredibly complicated. By the sound of things the builders are trying to get the system right by trial and improvement which also won't help at all.
Ugh! Sorry Frimble, but now you've -really- lost me! How will trying to improve the system and trialing stuff not help? No offense meant but I simply just do not understand that heh ;) |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 07:05 PM |
Frimble you made a point earlier that suggested to me that you think the present XP system might fail in certain circumstances if the world weren't built right.
Perhaps the reason why that isn't a problem in Vives is that the XP system has been tweaked to work with the kind of world the builders want to make. I think the two in Vives go together hand in hand and are unlikely to be thrown off from one another - as long as slight tweaking as PDW mentioned continues.
Also, you mentioned frustration with one of your characters as a weak build and being unfairly penalized. As one of those well known for weak builds, I disagree. I certainly don't think the problem is with the XP system. Ara explained this quite well earlier. Having a wider XP pool is a very big advantage. I made a druid/wizard that made it to level 14 from a combination of combat, crafting, spellcasting and roleplaying. The character had a difficult time until I learned the world well enough to recognize the character's strengths and weaknesses relative to Vives' particular array of challenges, and after level 8 she was leveling up without much trouble until I permadeathed her. Some areas (like Maldovia) were a cake walk when solo'd, others were horribly brutal - such as Bloodwood where the ettins killed her. I can't speak for lowfatpretzels, but I do know LFP also played some very unconventional class combinations and made it into the middle levels. Lowfatpretzels is also a great RPer that I greatly miss... but that is neither here nor there in this thread.
Regardless of all the above, you seem to be full of very good ideas, and I don't suggest you stopper this font. It is a value to Vives, and eventually that value gets recognized. Keep up the good work. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 07:26 PM |
Frimble, you seem to have quite a few misconceptions here...
1) Fighters gain MOST of their XP for defeating monsters, not ALL of their XP. Bards gain SOME of their XP for exploring. Rogues gain SOME of their XP for implementing skills. ALL classes benefit from the SAME thing in different ways. A Fighter kills monsters to rise in levels, so it's pretty straightforward. A Bard is not so straightforward, since he has to bring all of his abilities into play to tap into the full XP potential given to him - exploring, casting, using skills, using bardsong, and more. A Bard ALSO gains XP from monsters he defeats - of course, it's not the same as the amount a fighter gets (say, a 100 XP worth of monster is 100 XP for a fighter, 30 XP for a bard), ALONG with the XP he gains from various different sources.
Is this complicated? Explained like the above, it sure does. Explained like this, it doesn't:
[Experience Modifier - Bard]
Combat: 40%
Exploration: 100%
Skills: 60%
Spellcasting: 50%
Crafting: 70%
[Experience Modifier - Fighter]
Combat: 100%
Exploration: 30%
Skills: 20%
Spellcasting: 10%
Crafting: 75%
(** values are made up)
This is fairly straightforward to me. You can always overcomplicated, like I did in the first example, but that's the simple foundation of it, and it makes perfect sense in my opinion.
What does all these numbers mean? That a class gains most of her XP according to her abilities. The more they branch out into different "zones", the less it gets for each "zone".
A Fighter mainly does fighting. He barely gets any skill points, no spells or anything else. Since a fighter hits things for a job, he gets his XP from hitting things. Anything else is negligible, even if he could tap into them.
A Bard? A Bard has some fighting ability (medium AB), some spell casting ability, and some skill ability (4/6 skill points * int modifier [?] and bard song feats). He can do ALL those things, so unlike a fighter he can tap into ALL these XP sources. To even it out, he gets less for each.
Simple? I think it is. Does it work? It sure bloody hell does with a "PWNED!!!!!" on top. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 09:12 PM |
| Grey, look! WA is slowly assimilating into the "1337" community! :D |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 09:20 PM |
| that and the square root pie thing he said in the other thread.. I'm going to have to agree with you |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 09:26 PM |
I'd also like to reiterate Henesua's point about ideas being valuable... even ideas that everyone poo-poos (like the reincarnation thing I posted about in the other thread) can get people thinking, just like Frimbles post about reincarnation got me thinking... eventually some great idea might come out of it. (or at the very least, we can get some more 1337 speak out of WA *smirks*)
so keep spitting the ideas out, we'll collectively rip them apart, and some good will come of this all yet. |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 11:30 PM |
P.S. (did I just sneak in a snipe there somewhere? Yes I did!)
((/me sharpens a knife with Salt's name on it - take a number Alton, I've got a full todo list here)) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 11:49 PM |
Frimble, bards also get xp from using their bard song in combat.
Also, I've played a fighter/rogue and they are definately not penalized. Sure they get less xp than a fighter from pure combat and less xp from picking locks than a rogue (my pc never picked locks though - picked pockets for no xp though!)
Having played both pure fighters, and fighter/rogues I can tell you that I found things easier with fighter rogues. Their skills allowed me to go places where the fighter could not - and when I picked my battles carefully with the stealth skills the rogue class provided - I could engage in battles more easily and win.
A fighter often has no choice but to fight and if they run into something tougher than they are, they have a choice of running away and dying or shouting "Hail Mary" and likely dying anyway. A warrior rogue can very often choose whether to fight that battle or not - to their advantage. When they do fight, they get the advantage of the first sneak attack and additional warrior skills.
So no, I cannot agree that fighter/rogues suffer. When played with their strengths in mind, they have a versatility that fighters along cannot match.
Yes, fighters from their combat xp alone will initially level faster - but in the long run the fighter/rogue comes out ahead. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 06 Nov 2007 04:53 AM |
I can see in order to explain what I mean I will have explain the mathematics right from the start. I was expecting to have to do this at some point (although admittedly not for the benefit of the builders).
I will not however be able to post for at least 36 hours due to RL circumstances.
Watch this space… |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 06 Nov 2007 06:17 AM |
I can see in order to explain what I mean I will have explain the mathematics right from the start. I was expecting to have to do this at some point (although admittedly not for the benefit of the builders).
I will not however be able to post for at least 36 hours due to RL circumstances.
Watch this space…
Personally, from your use of the word "mathematics" I think you're taking this in the completely wrong way. It sounds to me like you're looking to get some complicated and impossible equation pertaining the XP gain for each class. That's not what the XP system is looking to create, at least not as I've experienced it.
Stop thinking about it "mathematically". I highly doubt the intention of the Vives XP system is to have everyone receive the same amount of XP in the same amount of time. It's not about that at all, and since it was implemented, I don't think that's the result the Vives team wanted to achieve with the system - they would've come up with something else had they wanted everyone to be completely equal. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 06 Nov 2007 07:22 AM |
Reference: XP Scales for Each Class:
Class: Combat/Discovery/AbilityUsage/Crafting/MagicHarnessing/Questing
Barbarian 100% 10% 30% 30% 5% 100%
Bard 50% 100% 100% 100% 50% 100%
Cleric 35% 50% 70% 60% 50% 100%
Druid 45% 90% 60% 60% 60% 100%
Fighter 100% 30% 30% 50% 5% 100%
Monk 75% 70% 90% 60% 20% 100%
Paladin 70% 60% 50% 60% 30% 100%
Ranger 75% 100% 50% 50% 25% 100%
Rogue 65% 75% 100% 75% 25% 100%
Sorcerer 35% 70% 100% 75% 100% 100%
Wizard 30% 60% 100% 80% 80% 100%
Arcane Archer 50% 100% 60% 80% 60% 100%
Assassin 60% 70% 100% 75% 25% 100%
Blackguard 70% 60% 50% 60% 30% 100%
Divine Champion 75% 60% 50% 60% 25% 100%
Dwarven Defender 100% 25% 30% 50% 5% 100%
Harper Scout 50% 100% 100% 80% 40% 100%
Pale Master 40% 60% 100% 80% 70% 100%
Red Dragon Disciple 45% 60% 80% 50% 90% 100%
Shifter 45% 70% 70% 60% 55% 100%
Shadowdancer 40% 70% 90% 75% 25% 100%
Weapon Master 100% 30% 25% 45% 5% 100%
All this and more in your handy-dandy Vives Player's handbook, assumed to have been read in the essential information forum. It's a pinned post. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 06 Nov 2007 07:46 AM |
All this and more in your handy-dandy Vives Player's handbook, assumed to have been read in the essential information forum. It's a pinned post.
Geek. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 06 Nov 2007 09:32 AM |
P.S. (did I just sneak in a snipe there somewhere? Yes I did!)
((/me sharpens a knife with Salt's name on it - take a number Alton, I've got a full todo list here))
It's shaaaaahp enough already killer! The old codger's got bones like a tinned sardine. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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