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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 09:39 AM |
I'm just going to quickly copy and paste from a previous post I made...
"What I might suggest, instead of going being either happy and healthy or dead, with no middle ground, I might suggest that at at "Near Death", a person goes down. Not dead down, but unconscious down. And not that they're about to bleed out. Make them pass out for a minute or two, let the monsters go back to their usual haunts, and then give them a chance to get back up. This gives the party a chance to actually help a member who goes down "unconscious", keeps plenty of the drama, and makes death rather a bit more rare and difficult to achieve. And I would have it so even at -9, they're going to make it back up to 1 again, instead of being 99% certain they're just going to go down to -10."
Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. When the little health indicator under their name says "Near Death" because they only have 15 hit points left, they would go unconscious, making the unconscious range from 15 to -10, giving a 25 point range to let it fall in. It would vary from character to character as to what that "Near Death" range was. And further, I would make it so the critters leave the player alone once they drop. Nobody keeps attacking a corpse, they move on to the other things that are trying to kill them.
Ah, then I misunderstood.
HOWEVER, a flaw I find in that idea is that it takes away from your total hit points. If "Near Death" is a state reached when you have 20% or less of your maximum hit points, then a character with 10 hit points suddenly has only 8, and a character with 100 suddenly has only 80.
Instead of trying to force RP through mechanics, we should rely on others RP appropriately. Forcing everything through rules is exactly the problem I see with D&D. There are other ways to deal with this "issue" besides taking off from a character's maximum hit points. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 10:18 AM |
| I agree, better to have characters drop at 0 and die at 5 + character level + constiution (or whatever) than have them drop at 20% of maximum +ve hit points. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 11:32 AM |
It's not forcing people to RP through mechanics. If a player were to attempt to RP dropping when they were "near death", the critters would still attack said player, regardless of the fact that the player is acting "unconscious". Let alone the sheer impossibility of a player making their character drop quickly enough when they hit near death so as not to be hit by a subsequent blow. Imagine going through the emote wand menu in the midst of combat!
What I was suggesting was overall making characters less battle-hardy, but increase their lifespans a bit, by allowing them to get back up again after combat. What Frimble suggested was to simply make them safer, without making them pay for it at all. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 12:11 PM |
there is an unidentifiable drop of truth in the running gag of DMs being there to kill players.
I'd disagree.
Players usually kill themselves. DMs have to work very very very hard not to kill PCs only to have the PCs charge forward, aggro all the monsters and then turn things into a great big PC slaughter leaving the DM to clean up the mess.
Yes, DMs do end up killing players from time to time, especially DMs less experienced in understanding what parties are actually capable of handling - but! in situations like that, the DM will fix their mistake.
There is no sport in killing PCs deliberately.
Now, making the PCs think the DMs are trying to kill their PCs but without actually doing it - now that is the sport of Kings! |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 12:15 PM |
Tasra says:
People will be up and walking around when it says "Near Death" over their head. Even at "Badly Wounded", most people don't bat an eye.
"Near death" means exactly what the PC means it to be, not what the other players think they believe it to be.
Hitpoints are a very abstract system. They don't represent anything more than a total combination of kill, health, luck, experience, etc, etc.
A PC "near death" may actually have been ravaged by badgers, or they may have had a lot of close calls and be physically fine while their heroic luck has been used up for the day - one more fight and they will discover their luck is gone (ie dead).
Don't impose your view on other players. If "Near Death" to you means "walking dead" then RP your PC that way. Others may choose to RP it with their PCs another way contrary to your own personal view.
Remember and respect that.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 12:24 PM |
I agree, better to have characters drop at 0 and die at 5 + character level + constiution (or whatever) than have them drop at 20% of maximum +ve hit points.
the HP system is hard coded into the engine. I cannot change the effects of being in the -1 to -10 hp range without having access to the nwn2 engine source code - which is to say it won't change.
(Personally, I'd allow PC's go to into deeper negatives at higher levels, but that is my own house rule)
As for having monsters stop attacking PCs when they go down, it can be done, but doing so makes the system very, very exploitable. Until I can code it without the potential exploits, the existing system will remain as is.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 01:20 PM |
"Near death" means exactly what the PC means it to be, not what the other players think they believe it to be.
Hitpoints are a very abstract system. They don't represent anything more than a total combination of kill, health, luck, experience, etc, etc.
A PC "near death" may actually have been ravaged by badgers, or they may have had a lot of close calls and be physically fine while their heroic luck has been used up for the day - one more fight and they will discover their luck is gone (ie dead).
Well said. I remember a AD&D kit that used to play off a similiar concept. It had high HPs, but not based off being physically tough. |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 04:20 PM |
On another topic: Resurrection.
Resurrection and Raise Dead are relatively powerful cleric spells, some more than others, to which Vives added its own penalty - making it a potent but dangerous resource to have. Resurrection should PREVENT the penalties a respawn creates, otherwise it's just a "respawn at the place of death" which doesn't really create a strong effect, certainly not one that is worth an added penalty or serious role play value.
I was thinking along these lines also WA.. only, I was wondering if perhaps there could be an "epic" spell for clerics that removes the after effects of death. (I know we might not get to epic levels in Vives2 for a long while, but think of it more along the lines of a DM granted reward for great role-playing. after all, that's really what the epic spells were in Vives 1, a reward for a sustained level of outstanding role-playing... they just happened to get them after the PC was at epic level)
And yes, I know.. there is already a group of restoration spells.. but they should only apply to magically induced penalties to your abilities... where the "epic" one would actually remove the penalties that come about from near death.
and to continue with another thought...
reincarnation.
Someone brought that up and it got me thinking... Like Johe, I'm not really fond of it being something like just getting to change the appearance and Bio of a current character, but rather I was thinking that perhaps there can be a suicide/reincarnation kind of option for anyone who may want one.
What I was thinking is this: at some point, there may come a time when you have "been there, done that" with your PC, and you are tired of them. (this would obviously not apply to Johe  but believe it or not, a lot of people get to that point) So perhaps we could have an option on one of the widgets that lets you commit suicide, placing a RIP chip on that particular PC, and then it takes... oh, say 50% of that characters current XP and puts it into your "account".
You then log off, log back on and create a new character... and the database, having kept track of your "account" (since it tracks you by log in, not by PC) would then give you the XP from the suicided PC to apply to your new character.
in this way a player who has put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into a PC, but has now become bored with that character, can start over with a new one without having to start over from ground zero. A reincarnation of sorts, but a little more realistic form of it... plus it's a little bit of a reward for being a long standing player.
Again, just rolling around ideas |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 05:07 PM |
Hmmm....
I'm on the fence about Shadow's reincarnation idea.
I like the idea of being able to leave something for a new character to inherit, but XP seems like too much. Then again I have never had a character over level 14 so maybe ... just maybe I don't understand the pain you guys feel in losing a character. For me I still think of them like tissue paper, but *shrugs* I'm weird.
But if anything is going to be inherited I think it needs to be built into the system early on. It can't be a pure matter of building a character up then deciding to kill it off to bequeath everything to another. You should have to establish a group or something that shares a common trait (maybe a special feat or something) and only characters made to be part of said group inherit from the suicide.
Dunno I am totally reaching here, but I remember being told that their were "backgrounds" in V2 that are selectable at character creation. OF course how these would be player customizable... I have no idea. Pick "Family" as your background and type a Surname in a field or something? Or even better "Company"... heh... characters could all be members of some nefarious business that correspond to a name in the field.
Then again this sounds like a "Guild" which created problems in V1. So maybe this whole suggestion of mine is bad.
[edit]
In anycase if this bequeath XP thing did go through... I'd hope that it not be too easy. For example... if you suicided a level 10, got set back to level 5, then you could just hit up all the quests again and get fairly close to your original level. Perhaps 50% is too kind. Maybe 33% is better.
[/edit] |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
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Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 07:56 PM |
There is no sport in killing PCs deliberately.
Now, making the PCs think the DMs are trying to kill their PCs but without actually doing it - now that is the sport of Kings!
I bet that if I read this part six times out loud, a fiery chasm would open up and swallow me into the dark and hellish Abyss.
I could come and visit you then!
Serious matters aside...
I don't like this incarnation idea one bit. I can understand the frustration of having to go through the low-level grind after losing a character permanently, but shortcuts aren't a way to solve it. It creates a whole deal of unfairness that I hardly find appealing. I can honestly say I hate this idea, because I have a tendency to dislike shortcuts like this.
Why would an older player be able make a new character, an "incarnation", at a higher level from point start, while a new arrival has to make a new character from point zero altogether? Do we want to create an elitist gaming community wherein being a veteran means getting more benefits? Because that's EXACTLY what it means. Are we going to shout "STFU NOOB!!!11oneelevensquarerootpie" at people next?
I've never seen Vives force permadeath on anyone, I hope it didn't, and I think it shouldn't. If I decide not to play a character, I want it to be my decision - that's why I never played on servers which used a permadeath system, and why I would leave the server altogether if permadeath was forced on me against my will. It doesn't seem like Vives is going to promote permadeath in the future either. That said, nothing at all is stopping anyone from playing his character, new or old, aside from the person playing it - so if you want to ditch the character because it "got boring" and play a new one, don't expect shortcuts: make a new one at level 1 with 10 gold pieces just like that new kid from around the block.
It's a game. Games are all about the challenge, you crybabies!
(that was my buddha phrase for this post, if it's not apparent, and is the result of the forum buddha staying up when there's class tomorrow morning) |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 08:17 PM |
| Yah, I agree with WA on this one. Shortcuts for older players are very bad, in my opinion. And just to respond to PDW's thing about hit points being extremely abstract, yah, I guess I can see that. We use the same concept in BattleGrounds 2, for things such as headshots that don't kill. Maybe it grazed you, and you got extremely lucky, but that's the end of your luck. I just never really applied it to the D&D things. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 09:51 PM |
Sorry to say WA, this was your Buddha phrase from said post:
"STFU NOOB!!!11oneelevensquarerootpie"
Strikes and gutters man, strikes and gutters.
To throw in again, I can't see trading in an old PC for half that experience back, in part because starting over at level 1 is so much fun in and of itself (for me). I want to earn every level and I don't feel like I know who the character is starting in the middle of their career.
I liked the idea of reincarnation because I imagined the old AD&D druid spell that would have players coming back as centaurs and lizard men and other weirdo stuff. This is my explanation for the existence of Bunt.
Lastly, having an option to scrap a character opening up right after you have hit the respawn button might be a little dicey. Might be a little too tempting is what I mean. Especially for those stupid deaths that were absolutely avoidable, the ones that make you shout FINE! FINE! I'M DEAD! Stupid character. I HATE YOU!
*Poof*
Now you're an elf with a mohawk! Ha-hah!! |
Gooble-gobble, gooble-gobble
We accept you, one of us! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 11:39 PM |
It's a game. Games are all about the challenge, you crybabies!
(that was my buddha phrase for this post, if it's not apparent, and is the result of the forum buddha staying up when there's class tomorrow morning)
Sheesh.. tell us how you -really- feel WA.. I don't think that last post was passionate enough... you must be holding something back.
I can see your point about possibly fostering an elitist mentality... but then I would point out that it all depends on the people in that community. I don't think that it would happen with the people we have now, but yes... who can say what kind of player base we will have when Vives 2 gets up and running.
oh, and that whole root square pie thing you said... I fear for your sanity in that you actually posted that..
And since I'm just feeling like stirring things up atm...
Games are NOT necessarily all about the challenge. For some people, yes, they certainly are, but I'd much rather play a game that tells a good story, than one that constantly pushes me to overcome the next absurd challenge. (when the game developers can integrate the challenges with forwarding the story, that's great... but the games that can do that well are few and far between )
So bite me, you twitchy power-gaming buddha!
[tongue slightly in cheek] |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 01:55 AM |
"STFU NOOB!!!11oneelevensquarerootpie"
Strikes and gutters man, strikes and gutters.
Then I am humbled by the greatness of my own spirit *nods*
oh, and that whole root square pie thing you said... I fear for your sanity in that you actually posted that.Tongue out.
It is called ENLIGHTENMENT! Not insanity! ENLIGHTENMENT! *cackles englightenedly* |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 05:30 AM |
| Whoever called WA a Buddha was an idiot. Now look at how big his head is. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 07:32 AM |
Whoever called WA a Buddha was an idiot. Now look at how big his head is.
History will bear me out! |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 07:54 AM |
| Like a funeral procession ;) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 12:13 PM |
I am also against The Shadow's idea of reincarnation. I think this transfer of xp between characters should not be an option.
When I suggested reincarnation as an option upon respawn I intended this purely as an RP option. For example:
Salt Sower (I am using renter6's character as he was the only player that approved of my original idea) is an extremely powerful but aging human wizard. He and Tristan (rogue ranger cleric) have recently contracted a 'taint' from some emissionary of Syn (Or something. I find this plot hard to follow).
An interesting way of 'resolving' this plot might be for Salt and Tristan to end up in some suitably cinematic fight with Syn within the void. Through Salt's self sacrifice, Tristan is purged of the taint. Salt dies, but even in the void the soul of such a man can not be destroyed. Salt's essence escapes Syn (perhaps not untainted) and is reincarnated as a halfelf who shows great talent as a wizard (or whatever renter6 wants) thanks to having the abilities (particularly the intelligence) of Salt Sower (at the level at which he died).
This could be an interesting starting point for further plots.
I am in no way suggesting reincarnation should be the default method of respawn, or a should make creating a new character easier for those used to playing higher level characters. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 12:44 PM |
| ((/me starts sharpening the knife with Salt's name on it)) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 12:54 PM |
| It was just an example. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:23 PM |
((/me starts sharpening the knife with Salt's name on it))
You cannot kill my entire cult of one member!
By the way, I still don't like the reincarnation idea, simply because it doesn't really need any implementation. Suppose Salt died and his soul is "reincarnated", he could just make a new character. Changing/resetting character aspects involves a lot of work - I don't even think it is possible to change things like appearance without heavy and cumbersome intervention, let alone script the possibility along with the other sheet changes. In the end, even if all of it is indeed possible, undoubtedly through very hard work, it will achieve the same effect as pressing the "create character" button and starting over.
The difference only lies in not seeing "Salt Sower" on the list anymore and the fluid integration of the possibility into the mechanics. However, the game's mechanics are already very limited, and trying to integrate every idea is not doable, especially when the idea can be done through other methods, even if they are more "messy". Not everything can be nice and flowery and suit our every whim - not in a computer game. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 03:36 PM |
Fair Point. Yes if this was hard to script I agree it wouldn't be worth the effort.
It is possible to change appearance though, in NwN1 at least. This is an option in the 'Pretty Good Character Creator' mod. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 08:54 PM |
| Yes, something along the lines of what Frimble is suggesting would simply be a DM action. It would be something that would, I'm sure, be discussed heavily in the DM forums and if that was the agreed upon best solution, then it would be done... so it will always be a possibility, there would just be no reason to automate it. |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 06 Nov 2007 01:32 AM |
| If you want to "reincarnate" why not just make a new PC? |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 06 Nov 2007 04:55 AM |
If you want to "reincarnate" why not just make a new PC?
Because the player would be loosing a lot and gaining very little. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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