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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 11:22 AM |
Roleplay can also be adventuring/hunting... they're not mutually exclusive.
I very much doubt we're going to award xp for number of lines spoken.
Sure, if a DM sees folks roleplaying in an inn, they will reward XP..... but they'll also reward XP to people roleplaying in a dungeon.
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 11:26 AM |
Moreover, I think role playing XP should be gained solely on the decision of a DM - only a human being can make a valid opinion on role play, not mathematics and equations. Not all activities which are considered role play should be rewarded: I see role play XP as a reward for EXCEPTIONAL role play, rather than a reward for three PCs sitting in a bar and talking about the same thing for the tenth time in ten hours. If folk want to do that, they can go ahead, but why would there characters learn anything from it? To make the players feel better?
The reason I suggested this is because, as Vives is now, there's almost no incentive for roleplaying, aside from just the sheer fun of being someone else and getting to see new sides of the same people.
But from what I understand, 'roleplaying' in Vives has a very high chance of turning towards violence; that is, a group sitting around in a bar just idly talking is bound to turn their sights towards taking down an EXP well of monsters. Now, I'm not saying that it's bad or anything, but almost every time I see a group IG, they're planning on taking down some monster or other. They aren't content to sit around and keep talking. Why? Because they aren't getting EXP by sitting around and talking. Despite what's advertised on this very website, they aren't being rewarded for roleplaying, unless they happen to have the good fortune of a DM passing by and notice them.
I just thought that, perhaps, the server would try and promote roleplay more, instead of beckoning players to seek that next level with one hand and then slapping them down with the other.
Sheer fun should be incentive enough no? That, to me is reward in itself. See also my previous comment, where I mention that roleplay and adventuring aren't mutually exclusive.
I can positively say, thinking about it, that there is zero chance of people getting auto-xp rewards based on lines of text. When Vives 2 does roll around there'll be much more DM attention. As it is now, we're building/scripting/making history etc |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 12:12 PM |
I agree with a lot of what WA and IX says. It'd be nice if there were a good way of rewarding simple RP, instead of having to be fortunate enough for a DM to wander past. Maybe just an XP award based on lines of text, and then the other balancing XP awards for the other different activities a character can participate in? Just tossing that out there real fast, I'm sure we'll all gain lots of XP from the ensuing debate that will follow :P
Let me think about this.
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
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*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
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*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
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*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
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*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*Og levels*
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
*og chants* Og! Og! Og!
...
Og Like! |
Og: Holy Paladin of Midor with his blessed Great Axes of Smashing and his Skull of Obtuseness
Egon: Wandering Warrior helping where he can |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 12:14 PM |
*rolls eyes*
nice. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 12:19 PM |
If you also happen to play a character who has lost their tongue, or perhaps is the strong & silent type........ not exactly fair.
Whilst there are some cool ideas in this thread....... XP for lines typed will (needless to say) not be in Vives 2.
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 12:21 PM |
To all, but particularly DiabloStan, I really think we should leave the functions themselves until we've decided what we want them to do. It's not going to be difficult to create functions that will make the game work in a certain way, but it's pointless to do so before we've agreed on what we want.
Also, don't guess at numbers. Opinions will, I'm sure vary massively on things such as the normal time taken to reach each level. (Note the use of the word 'normal'. I'm expecting there to be a distribution)
At present two of the points in my first post seem to be contested.
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The most heated debate seems to be regarding point 6.
PCs should gain most xp from doing whatever is ‘in character’ for that PC, and proportionally less for activities less in character.
Should xp what is in character be decided by the player or by the system? Is it enough to allow the players to gain xp in the way they choose, or does the system have to artificially give rewards 'in character' activities more?
Like DiabloStan, I would personally prefer all decisions about what is in character to be determined by the player.
Perhaps we could have a system where the percentage xp gains for each character is determined by the player in the character setup area? (This might cause technical problems though.)
The other point, contested by Wicked Artist, is number 5.
Weaker characters should gain xp more quickly than stronger characters.
Are some classes/builds really weaker than others? If yes, how much so? Does it matter?
I would answer yes, a lot and yes to these questions for NWN1 but I haven't played NwN2 or seen any rules for it so I don't know. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 12:21 PM |
I had that beat.
*Broog pantomines grumbling*
*Broog tap dances silently* |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 02:05 PM |
Weaker characters should gain xp more quickly than stronger characters.
Are some classes/builds really weaker than others? If yes, how much so? Does it matter?
I would answer yes, a lot and yes to these questions for NWN1 but I haven't played NwN2 or seen any rules for it so I don't know.
OF COURSE there are weaker and stronger classes/builds. D&D sucks! Really sucks! It sucks more than a black hole which has recently collided with other black holes and is currently sucking the universe into submission kind of sucks.
BUT... that's just the way it is. Vives shouldn't seek to make everyone balanced and happy, and I think that's nigh-impossible to do even if you work on it EXCLUSIVELY.
I'm not good at a lot of things, but you don't see me crying to the powers-that-be to give me special attention. To me doing that is a whiny and spoiled attitude. No one forces anyone to take a class he considers "weak" - you can make the most insanely powerful build you want. What's stopping you?
And I'm intentionally not putting the RP argument in here. It gives me WAY too much ammo to use against this argument of weak vs. strong. But my final word in here is this: if you want to have a cake and still eat it - SUCK IT UP - either you have it or you eat it. You can't have both, and certainly not cry for someone to give you another cake. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 02:09 PM |
| +1 xp given to WA |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 02:32 PM |
Responses to my post may, as yet be lacking in number, but they certainly make up for it in enthusiasm. : )
I agree, that it's impossible to balance the system perfectly but I would argue the NwN1 system could be improved by giving weaker characters more xp.
D&D in itself doesn't have to be balanced that well. I once created a level 15 character that (with average luck) defeated two NPCs of the same level written by my friend without taking a hit. The character wasn't built to be powerful, just to have a unique combat style. I don't consider this to be a problem in PnP, (Its only equivalent to making a level 15 character CR 18 ) but the NwN system is less balanced and more combat oriented. So I feel it's more important.
Does anyone know where I can read the class features, feats, skills, and spell lists for NwN2? Or failing that has anyone done an analysis of the rules, comparing them with 3,5 D&D and taking account of their context in a combat based game and a roll-play based world? It may be balanced enough to make the point unimportant anyway which would make this discussion unnecessary. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 03:51 PM |
Frimble (and WA)
when it comes to character builds and game balance and what not Pen and Paper and NWN are completely different animals. It doesn't do you any good to think of NWN and Vives in terms of Pen and Paper D&D.
They are only superficially the same game in my experience - as far as mechanics goes. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 05:52 PM |
The only differences I have noticed is that there is more combat and less control over your character in NwN. A few of the spells work differently too I suppose. Other than that, and the obvious changes to classes NwN is much the same as PnP D&D. It's very similar builds that work well, there's just more difference between the powerful builds and the weaker ones.
Having said that, I'm sure you've played both more than I have so perhaps you are correct.
In any case WA and I are pretty much the only people to have expressed opinions on whether the xp system needs to correct game balance. We will need people to make there wishes known if this is to be resolved. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 06:12 PM |
In any case WA and I are pretty much the only people to have expressed opinions on whether the xp system needs to correct game balance. We will need people to make there wishes known if this is to be resolved.
Well, I'm still trying to figure out how to copy/steal/rip off the current Vives xp system for my own little building attempts and have so far not succeeded, I think that says it all, or at least that I consider it the best xp system I've seen so far (and dang! Get down from you're high horses and release something to the vault! ).
Of course it has flaws, but it's still much closer to perfect than most other xp systems. On my other servers I was constantly frustrated because my weakling chars had really no way to gain some xp. I hate mindless mob-slashing, and Vives gave me the option to advance my characters differently. That's well done, all I can ask for, and I like it. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 07:23 PM |
Balance is a state reached after trial and error. Imagine a scale that you wish to balance, but have no idea what weights you are using to balance it - you start adding and subtracting weights on each side as you see put, ultimately having the same weight lain on both pedestals. Now take that scale as a metaphor to a game's mechanics, and suddenly it doesn't have two pedestals: it has a hundred of them all laid out in a complex and delicate web. Now you have to take that trial and error - adding and subtracting weights - and put it on a whole new level of complexity.
That's how creating a balance works: trial and error. Why has D&D evolved from first edition into 3.5 edition? Not just to add more cool content and stuff, but also to balance things out. Why does a computer game has patch releases over and over again? Not just to fix bugs and add content, but to improve the overall state of balance.
Trying to make a balance takes a lot more than giving more XP to weaker classes. It's a whole mess of changes made on a constant basis, taking precious time which can be better implemented actually enjoying the game given to us. Not to mention trial and error also causes a lot of frustration on the side of the players, who have to deal with constant unfairness and changes as the state of balance shifts uneasily.
Overall, it's not worth the effort, and you're certainly not going to improve things by "giving more XP to someone". That's just whining and looking for easy fixes. I was glad to see Ara commenting that they're not going to try and balance the system in the MotB thread. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 01:50 PM |
On the contrary, WA. It would be possible to balance the game very quickly based on a few calculations. We know the weights. There may be a lot of pedestals, but thats what the lore of moments was written for.
I will concede that giving more xp to weaker classes is an 'easy fix' but this is because it's easy to build and will not need changing once it's put in place. A better solution would involve keeping careful track of available items useful to each class, quests suited to each kind of character, the number of encounters in the game that are made easier by each kind of tactic etc. etc.
This is the kind of calculation I use as a PnP DM. I calculate how many hits the characters should take, the probability of one of them dieing, the consequences that good or bad tactics will have... the list goes on.
In a persistent world this is impossible. Even were there DMs online 24/7 there is no way they could calculate this sort of thing fast enough (assuming they could even be bothered). Awarding more xp to weaker characters is is indeed an 'easy fix', but thats the beauty of it. For Vives 1 the xp system was designed to do this, it works well, but for Vives 2 we could write one that works even better. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 06:46 AM |
BUMP
Alright then, how about point 6? |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 09:57 AM |
Alright then, how about point 6?
Who decides what is in character for your PC and what not? If you don't want a server full of stereotypes, I don't know how that should be possible. The only person who really knows what is IC for my character and what not is me, the one who created the char. I don't want to be policed like "you chose to be a rogue, it is not IC for you to save that princess from that tower, so no reward for you. Go pickpocketing.". Of course it's a good idea to reward certain skills like disabling traps, but the player should always have the option to go another route without facing a penalty for it. And as long as the player can't give out xp for himself, I really don't know how to reward this... |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 10:47 AM |
As long as point 6 is solved in a similar manner as it is solved in Vives1, I'm all for it.
You divide XP into various types (not necessarily what we have now) and dole it out in varying amounts depending upon class or some other form of characterization for the PC.
Honestly the present system is extremely simple and very effective in this regard.
This discussion is generating interesting ideas, and I'd rather not rain on the parade. But my 2 cents for the builders are since the system isn't broken, lets not waste time rewriting it. A few portions of the system don't work right? Fine, tinker with it. But that awesome new world their making... I really prefer that they put all their love and energy in that.
Your point 6 in my mind is almost the only criteria needed for an XP system at a place like Vives. I would swap the "in character actions" clause with something about rewarding many types of play. That was number two on the list of things that kept me playing Vives. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 12:37 PM |
Who decides what is in character for your PC and what not? If you don't want a server full of stereotypes, I don't know how that should be possible. The only person who really knows what is IC for my character and what not is me, the one who created the char. I don't want to be policed like "you chose to be a rogue, it is not IC for you to save that princess from that tower, so no reward for you. Go pickpocketing.". Of course it's a good idea to reward certain skills like disabling traps, but the player should always have the option to go another route without facing a penalty for it.
I couldn't have put it better. The current system tends to favor stereotypes. Unlike Casa I can think of various ways of amending this, but before I put ideas forward I would like to know if there is support for any change at all to the system. And if there is, what changes?
I would expect that the xp tables in the Vives1 players handbook would require changing anyway for the update to NwN2, and as the builders seem to say they haven't scripted the xp system yet now seems a good time to review it.
In answer to those arguing that they would rather have the builders energy put into graphics: I think the best answer is a quote from the PnP 3.5 Dungeon masters guide 'XP drives the game'. To my mind, the xp system is the single most defining feature of any RPG. Every player at some time bases their character's actions on to the way the xp system works. There may be more posts on the respawn thread, but the effect this actually has on gameplay is minimal in comparison to that of the xp functions however frustrating respawning is.
In any case, it is probably as easy for the builders to script a new system as the old one. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 12:54 PM |
Just a quickie.... there are some assumptions flying around as regards time/difficulty in scripting XP systems.
We can pretty much take all of the old scripting, and with minimal fuss in most cases, it can be transported directly into Vives2/NWN2.
Writing something as complex as a brand new XP system from the ground-up, however, does take a lot of time. It's quite complex, and whilst (I think.... I'm not a script guru at all :P) the basics might seem easy enough..... there's a multitude of classes/races etc in the game and it's just number crunching/time, rather than complexity? Others will confirm or tell me to shut up :P
IMHO, the gameworld is the over-riding, most important singular aspect of the PW. Without a gameworld to actually run about in, and interact with, you can have the bestest XP system in the world and it won't matter...... to us what does matter the most, is the World and all of it's history, quests, npc's, conversations and so forth. Without dedicating large proportions of time to those aspects, then we won't succeed....... xp system or not :)
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 12:56 PM |
fyi: the building of areas and scripting are entirely separate duties at the moment. As for scripting new systems, it actually takes longer as you have to test it Incremental changes are much easier.
As for "rewarding stereo types" I'd say if you want to be a fighter who picks locks and gets XP for it, go ahead. If you want to be a rogue that fights like a warrior go ahead.
However, if you want to take the best advantage of the xp system, then if you want to be a fighting rogue, be a warrior with some rogue skills (you'll need a higher int for that!) or a rogish warrior, take some weapon proficiency and heavy armour feats.
People who specialize (e.g. rogues) then do what they are specialized in (e.g. rogue skills) are rewarded.
People who don't specialize (fighter/clerics?) in one or the other get the benefits of both at the cost of reduced xp since they are dividing their attention between two areas of study.
Call that "rewarding stereotypes" if you like, but I call it developing your character in the fashion you think best.
Don't want to be a rogue who doesn't pick pockets or opens locks? Don't take the skills. Simple. What? but you want the listen, hide and stealth skills? Take a ranger then. Oh? you want the skills and be able to cast spells? Multiclass.
Nobody is forcing anything on anyone. Classes are sterotypes by definition. They represent an area of focused training of some sort or another. If you don't like that particular stereotype, don't take the class. Until some engine comes out with a classess system it will be unavoidable.
And yes, multiclassing can cost you some xp, but what do you expect? Multiclassing also gives PCs a tremendous flexibility, if not power, advantage over single classed PCs, but single classed PCs get to become more powerful in their speciality. There are Pro's and Cons to both.
(I think I'm rambling now) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 12:59 PM |
| Is that a veto against changes to the system? |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 01:16 PM |
Is that a veto against changes to the system?
I think we're spitballing in these two threads. Something seems to be sticking, but I don't know if we're going to hear yay or nay just yet. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 01:34 PM |
You're probably right renter.
The standard D&D/NwN system already penalises multi classing. But not for characters that are taking levels in all their classes at an equal rate (bar favored class). Why penalise multi classing again? It's not doing anything for game balance. If the system was draining xp from powerbuilds, then it would make sense, but it isn't, the power builds are fine. It's the conventional multiclass combinations and those that might be used to account for unusual backgrounds that are suffering. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 05 Nov 2007 02:29 PM |
Is that a veto against changes to the system?
No. There are already going to be changes. Just how many and how much remains to be seen.
It's the conventional multiclass combinations and those that might be used to account for unusual backgrounds that are suffering.
In my opinion, multiclass combinations don't suffer, at least from the examples I have seen IG over the last 3 years. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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