| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Display using:
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 02:25 PM |
This is an interesting dialogue to read through, as it transforms from a discussion of magic items, to persistent merchants, to game balance, and finally to how to tweak spellcasters to achieve that game balance.
With respect to magic items, I agree that they should be rare, but the persistent merchants do give opportunities to players who would never delve into a lich's lair an opportunity to buy the treasure he guards by raising gold. That economy -can- be achieved between players, but we play in different time-zones, things are sometimes heavy to carry, and sometimes a character needs the gold now. There is a trade-off, and perhaps the inventory of the persistent merchants could be wiped out on a less frequent basis than every reset...every week or two, perhaps.
With respect to characters traveling in animal/fiendish/undead/golem forms, or traveling with animal/fiendish/undead companions, I am firmly in the 'I hate it' camp, mostly if it's in civilized areas. There are exceptions, such as the way Bel has rp'd her undead companions being covered head to toe, and merely smelling bad. That is a far cry from what I'm thinking about though.
Low magic? Lower magic? As it is, many creatures you encounter in Vives can only be killed if the party has a cleric, sorceror/wizard or a rogue with UMD. Given that later posts in this thread are aimed at balancing spellcasters vis-a-vis other classes, might it not be suggested that reducing the availability of magic items merely exacerbates this? I think Vives 1 has got it right. The only absurdly overpowered magic items are the elf-only and ranger-only ones (hides her monk belt and gloves of balanced hands).
Tweaking wizards and sorcerors? DM grants of spells? Vives 1 handles wizards by giving them 20% combat xp (35% for sorcerors though, I think). All else being equal, that fighter is going to level a -lot- faster than that wizard, especially right now, with all the natural resources so hard to find. (A historical tangent is that the old AD&D rules used to recognize game balance issues by making it so that a rogue needed, I think 1,250 xp to hit level 2 and a wizard needed 2,500.)
It's a simpler fix than making spells be available only by DM grant, IMHO. Unless DMs are on 24 hours a day, this scenario is problematic, and, as a -player-, even if I had the most brilliant rp idea imaginable, I would simply not play a spellcaster if I knew getting level 6 spells involved spamming the DM channel with messages about my research, parking my character in a library, or hoping someone happened to be watching when my RP came across as 'worth rewarding'.
My opinion, overall: Vives 1 has got a lot of things right as regards magic, and I wouldn't deviate too far from them. |
|
|
  |
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 02:30 PM |
I've been avoiding this thread, since I don't usually like digging in a can of worms, but there's a point I'd like to make concerning persistant merchants as they are now: I don't like them.
Like BKatt put, they've basically become the dumpster yard for unwanted equipment, with the useful stuff being stored in personal containers or carried around in magic bags. This does end up having those merchants appear more like "odds and ends", and while keeping the items they buy make sense, it's surprising how they stay in business by purchasing a constant amount of highly precious magical goods that no one buys.
If something can be scripted to work around that, excellent. If its not worth the trouble, then I'd rather not see persistant merchants at all - the negative outdoes the positive. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 02:34 PM |
Mhmm, I don't particularly agree with the wizard spellcasting. Alright, call me partial to wizards, but here's the thing:
Each time a wizard levels he or she can only take 2 spells. If scrolls are not to be found as treasure, then even with 40 levels of wizard (which is impossible now in NWN2 anyway) a mage would never get all spells anyway. Why nerf a wizard in that respect as it's the only thing (apart from feats) that they can actually get later on.
How come clerics can learn all spells without doing anything?
Let's not start the whole 'this class is better than that class' debate. Been there, done that.
Spells in D&D 3.5 are working quite differently. Just check the buff spells such as bull's strength. Sure, it gives +4 standard enhancement, BUT it only lasts 1 min./lvl as opposed to 1d4+1 points for 1 hour/lvl now. Trust me, I much prefer 3rd edition in that respect. ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 02:41 PM |
On the other hand, it does encourage builds around the best weapons that can be found IG (or it would for me - such as taking an exotic weapon feat so my PC could use a cursed bastard sword for a time :)
Yes, that's true as well, but the idea is that there is a better distribution of time rather than one that is far and above better than others.
And the other thing I wanted to comment on was say instead of Wall of Force, it could be named Balthor's wall of force when he's the first one to develop it. That kind of extra touch make that RP of studying so worth it. Henesua has some good ideas as well.
In regards to magic level, Vives 1 magic level is probably the only thing I dislike about it, so I'm glad it's going to be scaled back.
It's a simpler fix than making spells be available only by DM grant, IMHO. Unless DMs are on 24 hours a day, this scenario is problematic, and, as a -player-, even if I had the most brilliant rp idea imaginable, I would simply not play a spellcaster if I knew getting level 6 spells involved spamming the DM channel with messages about my research, parking my character in a library, or hoping someone happened to be watching when my RP came across as 'worth rewarding'.
My opinion, overall: Vives 1 has got a lot of things right as regards magic, and I wouldn't deviate too far from them.
By the time you get to level 6 spells, you're spending a lot of time on each level, which is not something that requires a DM to be on 24 hours a day. It seems as soon as someone ever mentions that a DM controls X, the comment that a DM needs to be on 24 hours a day which simply isn't true. Level 6 spells wouldn't be that much work, it's those 9th level spells that would take a while learn. The other thing I like about this is that it allows the metamagic feats a whole lot more use when you don't have any spell of that level to cast.
You also don't have to spam the DM channels for requests (another thing that is always brought up when someone says DM has control over X), you'd be surprised what a DM will notice in game and there are other things, like IC posts that can be used to show your research. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 02:49 PM |
To me there's a fine line between " 'oly crap look wut I found on this 'ere stink beetle! a +5 sword o' hunka hunka bernin' luv +5 with drop ded ya bugga spell no savin' throw usable all day evryday!" and " 'oly crap! a coppa piece an' a piece o' lint!! I think I'm gonna play sumthin' else like mario brutha's at leest I gits a fireball when I eats a mushroom"
IMHO the builders and DM's have done a very good job at staying in the middle of the road, the perpetual vendors is kinda like a sieve at the bottom collecting the gunk that trickles down but hey *shrugs* when Johe was level one, there was no way he could have afforded what is in the stores now anyway so no harm no foul I'd say.
After playing this game on and off for...wow a really long time now that I think about it *checks to see if he still has a pulse* and seeing some really good RP'ers (and some not so good rp'ers), I'd have to say that Roleplaying is just what it is Roleplaying, you "pretend" to be someone else of your own design, and you try real hard to stick to that character, then you take this "pretend" person and stick them into a world that some poor shleb, (or shlebs), has spent a helluva lotta time and labor putting together(so much so ya never get to see their "pretend" persons :P), so that you can have a little fun with how this "pretend" person interacts with the world and other "pretend" people...*starting to feel like Dr Evil when he says "laser"*...
Anyway my point is, if the stores having too many items with +# after their name, or some crazy dwarf in a dragon suit makes RP'ing hard then maybe you're not "prewtending" hard enough? ;)
just a thought sorry long day at work, I think the edges of my noodle might be a bit crispy
ok
I'm done
*clears his throat and slinks away, the toilet paper attached to his shoe swishing as he slinks* how's that for roleplaying? |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 03:07 PM |
Brief comments on merchants:
I do have the persistancy scripts dump some of the more obvious junk as well as limit the total number of objects (had some help with that from the Thain people who play here).
One of the dreaded problems with scripting in PWs is the TMI error (too many instructions). The more checks I put in to ensure something isn't junk, the more likely it will be that the script will fail with a TMI error.
When I check for objects, I try to check for classes of objects that hopefully have something that I can use to group them together.
e.g. anything under 1K gp in value, any kind of gem, any kind of cnr created object - really it depends on the naming convention that was used to name the object.
Persistant merchants are useful as it allows some players, who are not treasure hunters, to obtain some magic equipment if they have the gold if players have been selling off old inventory to the merchants.
You could solve this problem by giving all merchants a little bit of different magical inventory, but that quickly becomes "known" where to find things. With selling, you never know what object will appear in what merchants inventory, so it is always good to check.
As always, pluses and minuses.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 04:50 PM |
It's a simpler fix than making spells be available only by DM grant, IMHO. Unless DMs are on 24 hours a day, this scenario is problematic, and, as a -player-, even if I had the most brilliant rp idea imaginable, I would simply not play a spellcaster if I knew getting level 6 spells involved spamming the DM channel with messages about my research, parking my character in a library, or hoping someone happened to be watching when my RP came across as 'worth rewarding'.
Actually not allowing spells at level up is not a big deal given that you only get 2. Typically spells are obtained by finding scrolls. I am advocating a system that adds to that.
What is does do is give DM's and builders some control in terms of what spells are available, and how hard it is to find some spells. In essence spells become another reward. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 05:01 PM |
I'm getting rather peeved off here. Why do people keep focussing on wizards?
Will you also limit clerics from gaining 6th level and higher spells? Why is it that gaining a spell, which is an inherent class ability of the wizard and sorcerer (and how will you handle those?), needs to be a reward? It takes forever to get to high level anyway. This is what happens when a PW grows people. At the very start it was estimated that Vives was to be for characters around level 8-10 with 12 being ultra high. After playing here for nearly 4 years, off and on, I do have one character that's level 32. It took me 1600 playing hours (I think, go check it out if you're so inclined) to get there and I still hadn't obtained all the spells that were out there. I gained my high level spells at 2 per level, which means about 4 per spell level by levelling and afterwards through loot, people scribing scrolls and DM rewards.
Will you take away the fighter's attack bonus when he levels up and make it a DM reward too?
From what I've read so far, none of you have played on a really high level magic world. If you'd compared Vives to that, you'd agree that the magic here is low. Plenty of items? Sure, but look at what they do. Perhaps it would be better if some of the items would be cleaned up from the merchants, but the admins and DMs are only human too and can only do so much. Quite frankly I prefer to have them focus on interacting with us and building rather than having to constantly delete stuff.
'nuff said about this whole thing. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 06:56 PM |
I'm getting rather peeved off here. Why do people keep focussing on wizards?
Will you also limit clerics from gaining 6th level and higher spells? Why is it that gaining a spell, which is an inherent class ability of the wizard and sorcerer (and how will you handle those?), needs to be a reward? It takes forever to get to high level anyway. This is what happens when a PW grows people. At the very start it was estimated that Vives was to be for characters around level 8-10 with 12 being ultra high. After playing here for nearly 4 years, off and on, I do have one character that's level 32. It took me 1600 playing hours (I think, go check it out if you're so inclined) to get there and I still hadn't obtained all the spells that were out there. I gained my high level spells at 2 per level, which means about 4 per spell level by levelling and afterwards through loot, people scribing scrolls and DM rewards.
Will you take away the fighter's attack bonus when he levels up and make it a DM reward too?
From what I've read so far, none of you have played on a really high level magic world. If you'd compared Vives to that, you'd agree that the magic here is low. Plenty of items? Sure, but look at what they do. Perhaps it would be better if some of the items would be cleaned up from the merchants, but the admins and DMs are only human too and can only do so much. Quite frankly I prefer to have them focus on interacting with us and building rather than having to constantly delete stuff.
'nuff said about this whole thing.
Johe mentioned that if there wasn't high level items then wizards/sorcerers/clerics would be overpowered so I mentioned an idea that we floated around about how to handle the three in a low magic world. I have no idea why you're taking this so personally, as all three types were talked about but the wizard idea is the easiest to implement so that's the obvious starting point to talk about ideas. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 10:12 PM |
PD has been here a long time, and "nerfing" wizards has been discussed many, many, times.
For the record, if I was to advocate any "nerfs", it'd be something like making Greater Magic Weapon match the magic items available in the world.
E.g. if the best weapon that could be found is +3, then GWM could only enchant up to +3 and the very tough monsters (cr 15+) would be the only ones with a DR +3/xx
(And no, I am not advocating this, it is just a fixed example)
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 07:50 AM |
all academic in NWN2 & vives 2 anyway ;)
I think the classes are much better balanced, and technically Obsidian have already done a bit of nerfing anyway ;)
NWN2 is 3.5, and so uses different types of material for weapons, damage resistance and reduction are handled completely differently.
I personally don't see us having to nerf any class *fingers crossed* but we'll see when we play-test.
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 07:59 AM |
| ((I vote we nerf any of PD's characters)) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 08:42 AM |
| (( second!)) |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic.
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 02:18 PM |
Nerf Phoenix! Fun for the whole family.
*imagines kids playing a game throwing around a soft spongy bird, not wanting to be the one stuck with it in hand when it bursts into flames* |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 02:49 PM |
Can we simply request that he make his characters out of Nerf material?
I normally am fine sharing ideas and having them rejected because I always have another idea ready in my back pocket anyway. But when a proposition is rejected due to a misunderstanding I think something needs to be said.
Regarding the potential changes I have offered to wizards (and all spellcasters) as a means to affect Vives2 magic level, as well as perhaps come up with a system for handling how spells are added into the game as the PW evolves:
First of all, I expressed interest in Xerah's ideas, and was not proposing them. When someone else lamented limitations upon spell choice at level up, I disagreed that that was a significant problem. I don't really feel I need to defend this point as it was not part of my proposal, but if you'd like to discuss it, we can in IRC or through PM. It just isn't worth it to me to discuss it further here.
Secondly, I proposed dividing spell lists for spellcasting classes into two lists. Each class list would have a commonly available list. On level up all members of the class gain access to it. Think of it as magic common knowledge. The other list or lists includes all the spells that have to be acquired or "unlocked" through game play.
Handling spells in this way has so much to offer in terms of RP and creating opportunities for hidden lore to be owned by certain groups or individuals, that I am not understanding the vehement opposition. Unless perhaps if this is impossible or too much work to implement? But I see no way to justify claims that this nerfs spell casters. Hardly. In fact it provides spell casters with more role play options, more diversity, and more in game things to get excited about. So as far as fun and roleplay go - I think the proposal provides much more opportunity than the current system.
If it is a question about power, I don't think this is the problem. The problem is 3.5 itself which severely impacts all spellcasters. Yes, I agree, I won't play a spellcaster with buffs that last but one combat, and then only for the whole combat if you are high level. Its just not any fun to cast spells that wink out before you have a chance to type a few lines of dialog. All that and I still don't understand why wall of ice, wall of stone or the prismatic wall spells have not been implemented. So much potential!
Anyway, enough said... |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 03:04 PM |
| I just want to go on record as saying that I have never played a straight caster and prolly never will, it just isn't in me genes. You bookworms that have the patience for it *sniffs a little tearing up* are my HEROES!! *bursts into tears* I jus'...*deep breath and settles down* I just posted my opinion becus.. Becus I just LUV the word NERF!! it makes me giggle, and I just KNEW it would come up on this thread sooner or later. YAY! |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 03:29 PM |
Now that I'm all nerfed and unable to cast even the slightest cantrip, I'll tell you all that I'm not keen on the 3.5 spellcasting system either. Sure I do think that 3.5 enhanced things, such as how DR works now, but spellcasters in 3.5 are nerfed a LOT compared to 3rd edition.
A cleric in 3rd edition was a better warrior than a pure classed fighter, provided the cleric had time to prepare. With all the buffs, most lasting hours on end, it wasn't hard to beat fighters. As Henesua brought it up, with spells now lasting at the most 1 minute per level (that's 10 rounds per level), it's becoming very impractical to play a spellcaster.
One reason I never played on HCR worlds was due to the summon spells implemented as per the pen and paper rules. Face it 1rd + 1 rd/lvl works in pen and paper where everything is turn based, but in a real time game? Especially since the AI isn't already the best in the world (alright, it's downright stupid) this makes it totally useless spells.
IGMS? Well IGMS isn't in the core rules and I've never seen a pen and paper version of it. It's probably the most favourite spell used by wizards and sorcerers to kill things. Yes IGMS is overpowerful.
There probably are a lot of other spells that can be exploited, but I'm not a powergamer (enough) to find these exploits. Quite frankly with my high level wizard I can usually do two things (but that's more due to my fault than anything else): stand there not doing anything under the protection of GS, or attack, attack, attack and die in .2 seconds. In the first case I also still manage to die (curse you dispel magic!).
Back on the topic of magic. I talked with Paul earlier today regarding the merchants. One of the reasons we have persistent merchants IG in Vives is because in the past when all the inventories were always empty (apart from what was coded to be there) players hoarded EVERYTHING. What happened next? TMI errors. Perhaps it was also due to coding errors with on entry scripts (ask Paul, I'm no expert whatsoever), but packrats caused the server to lag badly whenever they logged on and off (I was one of them).
The solution may lie somewhere in the middle of having no and all persistent merchants, i.e. just having a few in more inhabited areas. That way some merchants would have changing inventories, while others would only last until next reset. And the fewer persistent merchants there are IG, the less that Paul or whomever does it would have to invest time in cleaning up these inventories (read: getting rid of crappy items and five bazillion of the same things).
Right, time to go prepare dinner. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 03:55 PM |
I normally am fine sharing ideas and having them rejected because I always have another idea ready in my back pocket anyway. But when a proposition is rejected due to a misunderstanding I think something needs to be said.
Regarding the potential changes I have offered to wizards (and all spellcasters) as a means to affect Vives2 magic level, as well as perhaps come up with a system for handling how spells are added into the game as the PW evolves:
First of all, I expressed interest in Xerah's ideas, and was not proposing them. When someone else lamented limitations upon spell choice at level up, I disagreed that that was a significant problem. I don't really feel I need to defend this point as it was not part of my proposal, but if you'd like to discuss it, we can in IRC or through PM. It just isn't worth it to me to discuss it further here.
Secondly, I proposed dividing spell lists for spellcasting classes into two lists. Each class list would have a commonly available list. On level up all members of the class gain access to it. Think of it as magic common knowledge. The other list or lists includes all the spells that have to be acquired or "unlocked" through game play.
Handling spells in this way has so much to offer in terms of RP and creating opportunities for hidden lore to be owned by certain groups or individuals, that I am not understanding the vehement opposition. Unless perhaps if this is impossible or too much work to implement? But I see no way to justify claims that this nerfs spell casters. Hardly. In fact it provides spell casters with more role play options, more diversity, and more in game things to get excited about. So as far as fun and roleplay go - I think the proposal provides much more opportunity than the current system.
If it is a question about power, I don't think this is the problem. The problem is 3.5 itself which severely impacts all spellcasters. Yes, I agree, I won't play a spellcaster with buffs that last but one combat, and then only for the whole combat if you are high level. Its just not any fun to cast spells that wink out before you have a chance to type a few lines of dialog. All that and I still don't understand why wall of ice, wall of stone or the prismatic wall spells have not been implemented. So much potential!
Anyway, enough said...
I do want to say, after reading both your post and Xerah's earlier post, that there's no venom coming from me on this. He was right to point out that my reply had a teensy bit of hyperbole in it. Such is my wont. For some people, the idea of certain spells being only available through research, great roleplay, DM quest, etc. clearly has appeal, and I presume it wouldn't have to single out wizards, but could apply to all spellcasters.
It simply doesn't appeal to -my- roleplay style and I wouldn't play a spellcaster if such a system prevailed. I know things operate differently on Thain (a lot of screenshots with dialogue boxes get posted, and replies are often written, but in Vives, I distinctly recall PDW replying to a forum post saying that if you want a DM to read something (the thread was about a bard buying Askwith Manor), send a PM to the DM channel, period. As a result, I don't -expect- DMs, or anyone, really, to read what I post on my character's personal storyline threads.
Hence, for my playing style, it simply doesn't work. I'm not going to send a PM to the DMs when I want to learn a spell, nor am I going to direct my in-game roleplay toward such ends. I know many players put a great deal of effort into roleplaying research into finding new alloys, learning new spells, learning languages, etc. Under such a system, they would end up playing spellcasters and I wouldn't.
I hope this comes across as -neutral-, rather than hostile. Different ideas are great! Challenge conventional wisdom! Think outside the box. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 04:43 PM |
No, I don't think you are hostile. I just don't think what i have proposed is properly understood.
I'll say this even more clearly. You don't need a DM to get access to all these spells. All you need is say membership to a wizard tower which presently does not require a DM. And then you go to the wizard store and buy scrolls.
The same thing can be done for clerics. Instead of wizard tower and store, insert your own temple aesthetic. Perhaps the priest merely goes to a scripted area and meditates, and then they unlock that religion's special spells.
That is one very easy way to handle this, and adds to role play, and provides some meaning to magical organizations. It also makes magic special without making it overly difficult to get access to. It does take some work by the builders. But as an impact upon players? Wizards already have to buy tons of scrolls anyway to build up their spell repetoir.
And perhaps, you don't need a very restrictive common list for priest spells, but man it would be awesome for a religion to have a few special spells that others don't have.
I think the problem i am having is that I don't understand how this impacts upon your roleplay style. I think you are overstating the need for DM's to give you spells in the system I am proposing. I don't think it is necessary. And I have tried to show ways to avoid DM intervention. DM's can further add to the possibilites of this when they are around, but they are no means a requirement for it to work. And as the system works now this is how Epic spells work. So I am not even seeing this as a radical change.
I intend no venom either. I just want to be sure that opposition to this idea is actual against the idea as proposed. So far I don't see that as the case because again, no DM involvement is required. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 05:45 PM |
Your vision is a lot different than Xerah's, Henesua. Yours suggests characters go to their temple or mage tower or whatever on level-up or at other points to learn new spells, acquire powers, or whatever it is that gives them the capacity to work their 'magic'. I think many of us already incorporate that into our rp...Emma tends to make a pilgrimmage to Asashi before gaining a new feat, if not every new level. I have no gripes with it, nor would I have gripes with certain spells -only- being available to wizards of a certain mage tower, or clerics of a certain faith.
Xerah's speaks to treating spells of level 6 and up, and arcane spell failure to sorcerors, in a fashion somewhere between how languages and epic spells are treated in Vives right now, if I read his proposals right. You role-play learning the spells, just like you role-play learning languages, but there is also a 'reward' element to things. Ergot, level 6 spells end up being treated similarly to how Vives treats epic spells. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but my reading of that is that some players would therefore never progress beyond level 5 spells, even if they had, say, a level 20 wizard with a 21 intelligence.
Such a system would dissuade -me- from playing a spellcaster. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 06:20 PM |
Well, there isn't really epic level spells in NWN2 because there is no epic levels at the moment. With 6 and up, DMs can just drop scroll on people when they want, put them in treasure at the end of an event, etc. It would be the 9th level spells that would really take some time and you'd really feel personally connected to that spell once you get it.
It simply doesn't appeal to -my- roleplay style and I wouldn't play a spellcaster if such a system prevailed. I know things operate differently on Thain (a lot of screenshots with dialogue boxes get posted, and replies are often written, but in Vives, I distinctly recall PDW replying to a forum post saying that if you want a DM to read something (the thread was about a bard buying Askwith Manor), send a PM to the DM channel, period. As a result, I don't -expect- DMs, or anyone, really, to read what I post on my character's personal storyline threads.
It works a bit different than that. If you send a PM, then you can expect a response from the DM, but if you post you can't really expect a response. That being said, I used to give forum responses to people here and I know other have done so in the past. For me personally, I always preferred going after someone who posted on the forums rather than asked for it. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 06:32 PM |
I can't say I like the idea of having an innate class ability having to be bought or earned through anything more than the normal means (Experience and Levels). Just like fighters get their bonus feats by default, wizards should get their spells by default, even those two each level are worth something.
The ability to learn spells through roleplay of study shouldn't be a nessecity - but it can make an excellent bonus to the world.
I also think specialized cleric spells is a pretty interesting idea. Domains are the only thing that help differentiate one cleric from another, but they add a real minimal amount of special spells or abilities. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 29 Mar 2007 07:56 PM |
Your vision is a lot different than Xerah's, Henesua.
yeah. I think this got confused merely because I think Xerah's ideas have some merit to them, and said so before launching into my own proposal.
Yours suggests characters go to their temple or mage tower or whatever on level-up or at other points to learn new spells, acquire powers, or whatever it is that gives them the capacity to work their 'magic'. I think many of us already incorporate that into our rp...Emma tends to make a pilgrimmage to Asashi before gaining a new feat, if not every new level. I have no gripes with it, nor would I have gripes with certain spells -only- being available to wizards of a certain mage tower, or clerics of a certain faith.
Well, we are narrowing in on it.Actually you don't need to do anything special at the moment of level up. You just need at some point prior to have "unlocked" the special lore for yourself. Basically if you unlock the lore, it becomes selectable by your character at level up. That is why it isn't just a matter of making a more restrictive list to pick from. There is also the "special" list, that if you gain access to it, you can pick spells from. I imagine your character's background (as in NWN2's backgrounds) could also unlock a special spell list for you.
I don't see how this is incorporated into RP presently. Players may pretend they gain unique powers from activities they do on their own, but then again since there is not necessarily any real game effect other players could just as well claim that your character is crazy or that your character is making spurious claims concerning their religion's powers. I've pretty much had to have a DM present whenever I have sought powers from Gruin or to dig up ancient and powerful magic from a library or ruin or yes even Vestlat. All of this had real game effects as well, but required DM intervention.
But then if you are just talking about RPing the way in which you gain the powers you gain anyway, that is great. Yeah, I think more players should do the same. It makes the game more immersive. But wouldn't be great if the game rewarded you for this behavior rather than it merely being a choice if a player wishes to role play or not.
I think well thought out characters and well executed role play should benefit the character more so than just the occassional xp from ye olde DM. I was fortunate to receive DM attention due to the angle I took with Zubeida and this did have some Vives consequences. Hell Corbin even has a boat, and I'm not even a real contributor to the world anymore. Honestly I feel a bit spoiled by it all. and I really appreciate it. But I have seen a great number of other roleplayers that blow me out of the water but don't always get the attention they deserve to make their character anymore special because the DM wasn't there to make it happen. If this sort of stuff can be built into the world itself as the baseline operating without DM involvement, then just think of what can happen with your great roleplay and DM storylines. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 31 Mar 2007 12:40 PM |
*Opens up the can of fire*
Remove IGMS from the game. It's an overpowered spell created purely for NWN and everyone knows it. Otherwise, every mage and their grandmother wouldn't have it filling up slots from 6 to 9 when there's a whole slew of super fun sparklies out there (just not as blatantly stacked in the butt-kickery department).
But boy does it look pretty... Whoowee. Yes I know, I'm voicing a losing arguement, so what about moving it to a higher spell level? 8? 9? |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Magic. Spell Lists
Posted: 31 Mar 2007 01:05 PM |
Shield should take out a percentage of those missiles. If it was a PnP spell, that is how it would work. A force effect countered by a force effect. Since shield only offers partial cover or large shield equivalent only let it block some of the missiles. But it should still negate a percentage of them. Game logic dictates that this should be so.
Otherwise I agree that IGMS should be removed and other cool spells made in its place like all the prismatic spells, force shield, iron wall, force cage, all the house summons/hut spells, the secret chest spell (now that would be awesome for low strength mages), and what about rope trick?
Man, there are so many really groovey magic spells with great RP potential, that offer more interesting solutions to problems than dishing out dammage. Why do we have IGMS? Because the NWN developers were lazy? Bah.... |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|