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The Essence of Evil
Posted: 19 Nov 2003 11:50 PM |
This forum is intended for players of the evil persuasion to discuss their philosohpies on evil RP, and to come to some consensus on how it should be done in Vives. Poor Tasra got his thread hijacked bigtime, so I'm providing a home for the hijack posts(at least the ones that should be here), and for a decent discussion on the topic of Evil RP.
Too much association is given to evil and PvP. Properly RPd, evil does not have to be about PvP at all. in fact, a lawful evil person may go their entire life without killing another person. That said, I believe there is (and should be) room for PvP in Vives, so long as it's played out properly.
It will also serve as a place for DMs to get to know the evil community and to participate in discussions about evil in Vives, and to provide guidance when clarifications on "is this ok" are needed.
As a player, I have seen and thoroughly disenjoyed the results of the "Chaotic Stupid" school of evil thought. However, Evil when properly RPd is very very good and a joy to watch unfold. As a DM who just happens to have a flair for evil storylines, I'll be happy to support the activities of the evil community.
This thread exists for a productive discussion on the intelligent RP of evil. Evil can be a contentious topic. I'll be monitoring this thread closely like a good evil DM, so stay on topic and be civil. ;) |
Question Authority! |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 19 Nov 2003 11:51 PM |
Evil
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.
Just a little something to wrap some scope around it. ;) |
Question Authority! |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 01:59 AM |
IMO, as a player that has seen much evil (in his own characters :D) evil is this:
I'll do anything to cause chaos. Whether it's picking someones pocket in a group of people and having everyone blame each other or shooting someone in the back so I can enjoy the thrill of being chased.
The best way I can think of to RP evil (I think I've done a fair job of late, though I know not how) is for me to do the oposite of what me as a player would want to have happen. Granted, it may seem counter-productive, but, that's kinda what evil is in RL.
The third thing I do (to keep it interesting for myself as a player) is have fun with it. I -love- bragging about my exploits IG to see how characters react. I tend to build that characteristic into my characters, just for my sake. It's just hilarious from this end of the moniter. :)
And thank you, Landru, for a valiant attempt at saving my hi-jacked thread, though I'm afread it is quite dead now. X.X |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 02:40 AM |
I've no problem with evil characters- my PnP campaign was evil-based, I play a lot of Sharrans.
However, I despise PvP and Perma-Death. Having PCs playing off against each other, which can happen from having evil PCs about, can lead to either of these. I believe I posted my thoughts on this in the assasin thread. I know that Evil does not mean Killer, however, Good seeing person making another suffer may well lead to conflict, and potentially PvP with the offender, unless they can be talked out of it/subdued non-violently.
Evil PCs are great. They're fun, refreshing, and a challenge to RP. The problem starts to come when evil PCs and good PCs who wish to stop them are mixed together. Stopping and Evil PCs underlings is one thing, stopping an evil PC is quite the other. And, of course, Vica-Verca. For the second that good PCs know it was PCX who poisoned Buckshire well, everyone and his dog is likely to go and try and catch PCX (Except PCX's evil friends). Unless PCX gives himself up, you got PvP there. The same is true the other way round, with killing a member of a good aligned organisation.
I'd have to say that, IMHO, people should be allowed to play evil PCs. However, any acts more evil than stealing for the gain, or petty abuse, should not be conducted without a DM present, or perhaps even prior discussion with a DM. |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 04:51 AM |
| I would just -love- to know how to poison a well -without- a DM around |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 04:58 AM |
| There are plenty of evil acts which a PC could do without a DM around, if they so desired, and my point is that they shouldn't :P |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 05:03 AM |
| Well, that's what we have DMs for. Besides, what fun would life be without a little... ah... confusion? :D |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 06:54 AM |
I'll do anything to cause chaos. Whether it's picking someones pocket in a group of people and having everyone blame each other or shooting someone in the back so I can enjoy the thrill of being chased.
as i see this.. this doesnt really describe -evil- but describe chaotic
-but- chaotic does -not- mean you just wanna create chaos.. -but- it means that you dont follow rules..
saying a char will do anything to 'cause chaos' cuz it's evil.. is just giving out some stereotype.. which is like saying ' i kill cuz i am CE'..
If your char wants to cause chaos.. this is not cuz the fact your char is evil.. maybe your char is a good person but wanna have fun by confusing everyone..
'do anything to cause chaos' is more a characteristc of the char itself.. rather then alignment.
again as i saw earlier.. there are folks the confuse breaking laws.. and becoming a thief.. or anything else which is outlawed.. with being evil.. this is not the same thing ;)
(maybe my comment was a bit to offensive. tho i point it out at no one.. dont want it to be offensive.. you will have to excuse me =p)
about PvPs.. it is true that evil and good doesnt go together that well.. but depends on how good or evil the PCs are.. if the evil one is evil because he dont care about others.. or evil cuz he like to see others suffer.. there's a diffrence..
also.. evil can 'fight' evil PCs.. that happens quite a lot actually.. and (well.. less often) there are fights between good chars. tho it is the most common as you see two oppsites meet each other.
I'd have to say that, IMHO, people should be allowed to play evil PCs. However, any acts more evil than stealing for the gain, or petty abuse, should not be conducted without a DM present, or perhaps even prior discussion with a DM.
I think ppl should play them as well..
the problem is.. that some ppl just ruin it.. and start playing chaotic stupid PCs...
having a player that can play evil chars -well- is a great thing.. and as i see it.. not everyone can - some act too nicely.. and some act just stupid =p
There are plenty of evil acts which a PC could do without a DM around, if they so desired, and my point is that they shouldn't :P
exactly what i mean, cuz there are many attempts of playing evil chars that -doesnt- come out right.. you should have a DM behind you.. first.. to back you up in case a fight starts .. (tho most times - the PC gets what he should get ) and to prevent players from 'unwanted use' of evil chars (like killing all NPCs around =p)
just commenting a bit.. cuz i dont have much time to think things out that i can write =p
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 07:57 AM |
The other point, which has been brought up, is the type of evil PC. If Vives were FR, I -would- be playing a Sharran. None of you would know. My character's alignment would be NE, most of you would think He/She would be NG.
That evil character would help people, act alturistic, generally be kind and good to everyone, except when someone felt pain or loss they would subtly, carefully and masterfully engineer it so that the feelings of pain and loss were great, and never forgotten. Thus another person feels the emotions which can eventually lead the the veneration of Shar.
That character is just as evil as any other, but in fact this sort of debate simply wouldn't apply to them, as they wouldn't perform any of the typical "evil acts".
I'm tending to agree with Dens here, actually. Chaotic-Stupid and Evil are different. Not all E is CE, or NE. LE can be exploiting people, and doing no worse than that for your whole life. A few people may or may not have missed that. I don't know, but it's a common misonception. Perhaps because fewer people play that sort of character than a careful, scheming type.
Regards to causing chaos, Chaos for Chaos' sake, IMHO, isn't evil, it's C-N. Being biased towards chaos without doing good or evil for it's own sake.
I think I've probably said my piece and given my opinion on this now, though.. so I'll shut up... =P
-Barnas |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 08:04 AM |
I don't think anyone plays a Chaotic Stupid here. I myself play a Chaotic Evil Genious :D MwahaHA!
And I don't even remember how this was brought up, but I know it was one of my posts. Gah >.<
Chaos for personal pleasure can be evil or it can be good. It depends on how you go about it :D
And one more thing, I don't think I've -ever- had a DM back me up when I'm doing something evil. Granted, I never hear the end of it, but still... :P |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 08:07 AM |
I have an evil character, I think...
Anyway, they don't go around killing people (well... not non "evil" people) and it's not to do with what you do, it's all down to why you do it.
Kill an innocent - not evil
Kill an innocent by accident - not evil
Kill an innocent because you want to - evil
Sure you can look at what someone does and say they're evil, but really they may have good intentions. For all intents and purposes, my evil character is a good girl - the fact that she's actually a Blackguard (or there abouts) and will jump on the evil bandwagon when it looks like it has a chance is besides the point... people have no reason to think she's evil. |
Eh? |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 08:13 AM |
Kill an innocent knowingly IS evil. No doubt about it.
To knowingly cause the death of a nonhostile noncombatant is one of the most evil acts, whatever the motivation. This is CLEARLY stated in the book of vile darkness, and pretty much comes into the common sense/conscience part of things.
The other problem is this. BOVD again, since it's the best source for evil in DnD. "In DnD, Good and Evil are not simply philosophical concepts, they are the forces which define the cosmos. Want to see who's evil? Cast holy smite and see who gets hurt."
You can be a different kind of evil, can be unsuspectable as evil... but you're always evil, and that canne be changed until your alingment changes.
Forgot to put that in my last post, so I stuck it on the end of this one....
-Barnas |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 12:18 PM |
I don't think anyone plays a Chaotic Stupid here. I myself play a Chaotic Evil Genious :D MwahaHA!
*roll his eyes*
the idea of chaotic stupid is playing the char as the most common CE asshole.. who go around and kill NPCs.. PK ppl.. grief thieving.. and all in the excuse of being "evil".
doesnt care if your char is smart or stupid ... chaotic stupid is more ooc then IC stat as i see it (tho maybe i got it wrong =p )
Chaos for personal pleasure can be evil or it can be good. It depends on how you go about it
no.. it cant be good.. chaos for making chaos is not 'good' act.. but it is not an act of evil..
creating chaos cuz you like it is not an act of chaos as well.. a lawful evil char will not create chaos.. as lawfull sticks for the part of your char who likes order.. listen to rules.. etc..
And one more thing, I don't think I've -ever- had a DM back me up when I'm doing something evil. Granted, I never hear the end of it, but still...
as said - most times chars gets what the chars should get..
as a DM i back up players who i think deserve it.. deserve it - i know the player and the char, or at least know one of them -good-. and decide by that.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 12:23 PM |
How do you determine who deserves it? Next time, I'll have a potion of invisibility AND a potion of speed! I'll never get caught! Never, never, NEVER!!! BWAHAHAHHAAA!!! :P
Speaking of which, do -I- deserve it? *Innocent look crosses visage* |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 12:41 PM |
as said.. it depends on the cirumstance (darn i duno how to spell =p)
the player and the char..
if i will decide you will probably know it..
and if not.. then it is while we DMs talk behind your backs =p
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 01:29 PM |
Now, pardon my thoughts on this, but wouldn't it be meta-gaming or something to decide how you the DM look upon something partially depending on -who the player is- that does it?
Shouldn't all players be equal in the eyes of the DMs and just have everything happen on an event to event basis?
Pardon my thoughts, but.... well, that's how I see it. >.< Most people probably won't like it, so please, give me a chance to change my mind and give me a situation where basing any information on OOC info would be relevant.
Terribly sorry for everyone I offend |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 02:22 PM |
I meant..
that if the player is someone who exploited a bug.. or abused the rules.. there's last chance, at least in my opinion that he will be backed up - at least by me ..
I mean - if someone disrespect the system, why should the system respect him?
of course this takes time.. and after a while a player will probably be trusted again..
this is a small part of the decision.. but it still exist ..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: The Essence of Evil
Posted: 20 Nov 2003 03:41 PM |
| I see... my fault, sorry I misinterpreted it. |
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