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Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 12:59 PM |
There has been some (or a fair bit) of interest expressed in having a PW built and running again, and it looks like there is enough interest to have it built.
So, here's a question for you to help us figure out what we should do, if anything.
(1) do we fix up vives and run it?
(2) do we run vives darker days (200 years after vives) so we can generate some new stories, new PCs, new lore?
(3) do we build something new completely?
(3a) Henesua has volunteered to use Arnheim as a base - use that since it is already built?
(3b) something completely new?
(3c) Vives2? We had planned on building Vives2 which would take place about 2000 years in the future in NWN2, but that never planned out. However we did write a lot of stuff on it in preparation.
What I'd like to see is a server that we could use to schedule regular gaming sessions. Let's face it, most of us do not have the same amount of time that we used to have when we were younger. But, if we could have a place for regular weekly gaming sessions, then this might make it easier on everyone's schedules.
I'd really like to see the old players have a place to run their wackiness.
Also, for you xDMs, I'd rather that most of you come back as players only so there would be no pressure on you forcing you to participate.
Heck, if you wanted to run your own groups, we could also arrange people being temporary DMs just for that purpose.
What do you all think? Thoughts? |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 01:23 PM |
I'm a fan of either 2 or 3a. If just cause that lessons the work load needed since either one already has a decent amount of work put into it.
But if the builders would prefer a clean slate and V2.. Well, they'd know best! |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 01:24 PM |
You left one thing out, PDW.
In IRC we've been talking a lot about Vives 2. There seems to be a lot of interest in that.
Whatever we do, I'm getting things ready for those that are chomping at the bit. The foundation is being laid. I'll keep tabs to see what other ideas surface in this thread. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 01:29 PM |
| I've updated the first post with 3c - vives2 option. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 03:46 PM |
Only problem with regular gaming sessions is finding one that people can do on a regular basis. I know for myself it would be very hard to commit to any one particular time or day.
And generally find that over time such groups always dissolve, level disparity becomes an issue and they are a little too...exclusive. Makes it hard for new blood to join.
I much prefer a PW where people can do their own thing, and DMs run stuff as and when, announced on the forums and open to all. For me that was part of the magic of Vives, that 90% of DM events were open to all levels and all comers.
"We kill, maim and emotionally torture all, regardless of level" :P
Having wandered the old vives mod a bit now, personally Id be happy to still use that. But hell, I'd be happy wandering anywhere that had an active player base drawn from this community. :)
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 07:46 PM |
| I am up for 2 or 3 also. |
ONWARD AND UPWARD! |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 08:02 PM |
| 2 and 3, in any form. Although I'm very interested in seeing Vives 2, maybe because we had so much lore out already. Of course none of it was canon. :) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 09:29 PM |
This is just my 2 cents.
I'd like to see something completely new — anything under number 3. I say this only because (again, just speaking for myself), Vives represents a certain time period in my life that was quite awhile ago. Starting fresh seems welcomed.
One of the very early thoughts about Vives 2 — back when I was a DM — was that it would take place, as mentioned in this thread, thousands of years later. Major cataclysmic type events would have left large gaps in the history, leaving lots to be discovered and room for growth of stories. The early thought back then (and I'm recalling things from 2003-2004) was that the rapid surge in powerful characters drawing too much power in Vives caused a near world-ending event. I realize that much has happened since 2004, so I don't know if this sort of storyline is still feasible, or if anyone even cares for it.
As for logistics, I personally would do better with a set schedule, which I suppose tends more towards a campaign than a PW. I agree with some of the concerns Sirac voiced about groups that play together, and I suppose that's a trade off. I just can't imagine being able to play otherwise. I think the goal should be for a hybrid of a campaign and a PW, meaning that players can participate in a campaign with a particular DM — that suits the players who can play a few hours a week — but there is persistence, so that people can play whenever.
I very much like the idea of allowing people to be DMs, like for a specific group of players on a particular night or what not. That's something I'd be very interested in.
I have another small request — and I've always been outvoted on this one — but I'm just suggesting it. My suggestion is that, whatever the project is, it be low-level, with very slow levelling. The reason I've always preferred low levels is that, in my opinion, and this may sound counterintuitive, it makes the world more magical, because it's just a little stretch from reality. I've always found it easier to imagine a world where a someone might be able to cast a cure light wounds spell vs. a world with very high magic.
Anyway, again, this is just my opinion.
-Nar |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 09:45 PM |
| I'm going to join the echo chamber and say that either 2 or 3 would be great. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 09:49 PM |
I am up for anything, (big surprise there eh?)
JJ |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 11:12 PM |
| I'll follow suit and say that I would like to see something along the lines of Vives waaaayyy in the future or something entirely different. Leaning towards Vives in the future as there is already so much history and lore that you hate to throw something good away unless you want to experiment with something else. Let our old characters lie and let the plots be part of history. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 18 Jul 2013 11:31 PM |
I'll follow suit and say that I would like to see something along the lines of Vives waaaayyy in the future or something entirely different. Leaning towards Vives in the future as there is already so much history and lore that you hate to throw something good away unless you want to experiment with something else. Let our old characters lie and let the plots be part of history.
Coruva! :)
Yes, let's leave all our characters in the past and start over fresh. If anything, let's do it the way like Chief's done it in Darker days, make easter egg references to Vives 1 events and characters. That way it's a game within a game as I'd sure want to find as many of those references as possible. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 01:17 AM |
Yup. I'm in, if Henny can give me what I asked for. *looks expectantly at henusa*
Seriously, though, this would be fun. I look forward to getting the gang back together. |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 01:24 AM |
| I have hidden tiny transitions in Darker Days P. They take you back to Vives 1 where you will be bard. |
ONWARD AND UPWARD! |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 02:25 AM |
My vote is Vives2 . I'd be ok with Darker Days , but you say a lot of the old bugs remain there right? If so seems that would cause more unneeded hassle. DD does have a lot of really impressive work done on it already tho.
My vote is something up persistant so I can play anytime, with my friends from across the pond to. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 03:17 AM |
I would say I prefer the idea of 3c (though, for clarity I assume we are planning on still using NWN1?) That being said, would 3a and 3c need to be mutually exclusive? Arnheim is Henny's creature, so it would of course be up to him as to whether he wanted it to be used as a Vives2. However, even if there is different lore etc... in several thousand years a lot would have changed, cities/empires rising/falling different names, gods come and go... So really I would think even if we used Arnheim, we could still technically call it Vives2?
Not sure any of that made sense, but I'll leave it as is, and if you need further clarification of my thoughts, I would be glad to supply it.
I think option 1 is pretty much a loss, not only for bugs/etc, but because DD does exist and so fixing Vives would be like going into a past that is already written and can't be changed. You could certainly play things out, but I like the idea of a fresh start.
That being said, I do have to agree with Narenia's one point about lower levels/progression. That was one thing I loved about the early days of Vives where the target level was generally around 5-10 I think. I'm not saying that it would even have to be that low. I really prefer that if there is a strong player base, and or the world allows for that (ie. being a more low level oriented world where you can still travel a lot, not just being cooped up in 5 areas because that is all you can go to while alone). I love it because it really encourages group playing mentality, and also there isn't a huge level disparity. Not too mention I have never really played an epic character, and don't really like to. In my mind anyone that strong should probably be a major player in just about everything that goes on in the area/world, which means that it should be hard to get there. Not saying they -CAN'T- get there, just that it should be very hard.
Alright, I'm typing this at work, so I have to get back. I may edit/add onto this later. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 09:05 AM |
I like the older stuff myself, but would not be averse to future stories. That being said, there are many in my stable that desire further adventures, including:
Scoopers
Draeton Viselord
Brother Trenton Hapsburg (Caliber Tor'gahl)
Caminus Alvaril
By-Tor Frostrail
Marion Wyldfyre
Francisco D'Argenta
Jemini
Uriel Hapsburg
Vindus Raille
Tevya Fiddle |
Do not ask of them questions. You will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 10:03 AM |
Calmeir (and all),
While I love Arnheim, I have no issues with working on Vives 2, nor with ripping apart the work I did on Arnheim and plugging it into Vives 2. You are right in your assessment that those options are not mutually exclusive at all.
The truth is that there is a lot of Vives in Arnheim. After investing in Vives from 2010 - 2011, I was sick of the module's issues, setting and deities (truth be told I never liked the gods in Vives) but I had loved how the module to its core encouraged partying up, acted as a beautiful stage for roleplay, legitimized a wide range of actions in game (rather than just the kill grind), and had room for players to embroider on the fabric of the world with their character. So I took from Vives many of things I thought nurtured this kind of play, these include our beloved XP categories (and class based rates of reward), area descriptions, cast player characters and so on. As far as the technical stuff goes, Arnheim feels like Vives. The Vivesers that played with me in 2012 felt right at home.
Where ever we decide to go with this, the Vives feel will be coming along with us. You can be assured of that.
I also have a number of wonderful things I can not wait to share with you. I think its going to be a lot of fun.
Personally I look forward to the collaboration. Having full control over a project has its rewards, but I'm eager at this point to take a new path, working with this wonderfully creative community.
My vote is for Vives 2 as well. I'd have to see overwhelming desire for Arnheim to force people to work on it. I am much more interested in collaborating on something we all share equal ownership in.
Vindicta, with regards to this:
I like the older stuff myself, but would not be averse to future stories. That being said, there are many in my stable that desire further adventures
Where have you been? Vives was not down for long. We would have loved to play with you. 2010 was a nice year for events. Anyway, thats all past. If anyone wants to play the old vives, you can. Its up and running. Grab a friend and get in game. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 10:46 AM |
Right... time to toss my gp in...
new adventures, in whatever form... (any version of selection 3)
And I'm inclined to agree with the Narenia and Calmeir as well, about the low levels... but only to a point. yes, the lower levels are much more interesting, and fun.. but only if we could be auto set to, I don't know... level 5, right from the start. levels 1 through 4 are crap (I don't know if it's specifically up to lvl 4, but the first few are... and it rounds up nicely to 5, so there ) a light breeze can kill you, and you have no real skills to speak of yet.
Plus the whole slow leveling, and a low level cap make sense to me too... being that I will only be able to play once in a while, and from the sound of it, others are in the same boat, what with our lives being in a completely different place now... it would be nice to be able to jump in occasionally, and not feel like I'm left far behind those who are blessed with much more time to play. And I don't say that as a competitive, or that's not fair kind of thing... but rather in the sense of, as Calmeir said encouraging the group playing mentality. falling within a relatively close level range means I feel like I can be useful adventuring with someone who is only a few levels above me, rather than with someone who is 10 levels or more and I just feel like a third wheel.
Or how about a completely different idea... start everyone at lvl 10, and cap it at 15.. or start everyone at lvl 15 and cap it at 20... set a narrow level range, and bump everyone up to the lower level, and make it very VERY hard to gain levels... but you can only get another 5 or so... Is that a completely bonkers idea, or could that work? |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 11:16 AM |
Related to slowing down leveling:
I'm also interested with tweaking the rate of XP gain in Vives, and this is something that I will need help with.
I've got some half-formed ideas about how we could also flag PCs on a weekly campaign as only "in game" as far as XP and persistence is concerned when actually playing the campaign with the DM. These players would also have teh ability to opt out of the campaign, and level up normally. It would be up to the DM (and other players possibly) whether or not to let the level grinder back in on the session with that character.
Lots of stuff to work out with that, and maybe its a bad idea. BUT a variation on the theme worked well in Arnheim. I had a game on and off widget. When players gathered in the module for play the game was off. No NPC deaths were real, no XP accrued, nothing data wise was recorded. Then when I and DSM were ready to get the event under way, I hit the Game on widget, a big "GAME ON" shout was announced, and everything was in character.
Anyway its an idea. We can come up with many more ways to skin this cat.
Related to level caps:
I like them and I hate them.
Personally, I love level 1. I love taking a party of 5 level 1 adventurers into a ruin and watching the drama ensue when the ochre jelly nearly kills the dwarven fighter, and everyone else does their best to prevent his HP falling to -10 while avoiding the jelly at the same time. I love that stuff! Every treasure is precious. Every spell counts. And you all get to know the characters together.
But I had an idea, again trying to have the cake and eat it too.
Prior to this Vives thing revving up the past weeks, I was dreaming up what I thought would be a killer PW. PCs adventure up to name level, and at name level (or thereabouts) you get the option of taking over a stronghold (or if you have godly scripters a mechanic which allows you to make one) and rule it. While you are ruling a stronghold you can not level up. You get henchmen, resources, cast player character powers etc.... but you can't advance your character. Once you reach this part of the game however, you don't advance in level. You gain powers in other ways. Perhaps we could allow players to forgo or give up "rulership" but then they would pass the part of the game where they could ever rule again.
This also fits into a ton of things I have done and others have done to create factions who have power levels that respond to in game events. They can gain or lose members. Religions gain and lose followers. They can become rich or poor. They can gain or lose territory. This stuff can be done, and it could be a fun dimension for a game even if you do not actually sit on a throne as it allows players to actually join with say Jessup and influence his power, or actually work against his organization and weaken it. Regardless of what the DMs want to do (to a point). Anyway... don't want to have the "no guilds" conversation, but just ideas of things that I think would enrich the world we play in.
We've all got a million of em. Let em out! |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 11:42 AM |
A ton of great ideas out there as usual with this crowd, and also a variety of opinions which is one of the things that made Vives great. I am curious on one thing though. What is the target audience that you are creating the PW for? Is it the average NWN1 player that are still out there? Is it those that have migrated back here and others that are like minded that some may know? Is it something else completely? Or is that something that you are trying to determine with these posts?
Also, I'd have to agree with several people that I enjoy the lower level play. I feel that you get more evenly matched play when the levels aren't epic in scope and I also think that it is easier to GM a group of low level players. It makes it easier to have group events when there isn't such a huge spread in levels. Though hats off to the GM's that ran some of the campaigns in Vives that incorporated characters from a wide level spread. You did an amazing job making everyone feel that they had a part to play.
Coruva |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 10:01 PM |
I also like the idea of a focus on low levels, but I've always been more comfortable with a soft level cap (Very slow advancement after around level 11) than a hard cap ("We don't want 9th level spells, so you just can't hit 17th).
If we redo the XP system, I'd love to see it give more XP to people in parties. Once we work out whatever the base amount is- presumably much lower than the NWN default- give 100% of that to a solo player, 125% to a 2 player party, 140% to a 3 player party, and 150% to 4+ players. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 10:13 PM |
| I like that soft level cap. Also that being said. We have to look at the economy system. The slow level progression may help. CNR is great and i know peeps love it. It however can destroy a PW economy to the point where players can walk around with millions and millions. |
ONWARD AND UPWARD! |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 11:08 PM |
If we redo the XP system, I'd love to see it give more XP to people in parties. Once we work out whatever the base amount is- presumably much lower than the NWN default- give 100% of that to a solo player, 125% to a 2 player party, 140% to a 3 player party, and 150% to 4+ players.
XP is not the only carrot (or stick) to encourage the behavior we would like to see. Vives already did this well. Perhaps the XP system could be improved to do a better job, but I think we should think outside of the "increase XP" for the behaviors we like "decrease XP" for the behaviors we don't like. We of course will do this, but we should probably look to functional changes.
Some things I did in Arnheim:
adjust the strengths and weaknesses of the standard archetypes:
- make the primary source of healing HP to be other characters with healing spells. (healing kits do not heal hit points. healing potions only crafted by someone with the spell. regeneration is not found on items, resting does not return full hit points except for in certain areas)
- armor provides some physical damage reduction to give non-spell casters a chance, and a wider range of dexterity
- magic weapons are rare, a weapon with special damage is extremely rare
- shorten the length of a summons so that it more or less lasts one combat
- remove the pick locks and remove traps skill from familiars
- magic items with spell abilities are limited to the class which cast the spell on the item.
- introduce terrain affects which the wilderness feats mitigate to give rangers and druids more of an edge in the wilderness.
other ideas:
- PCs can teach one another things (languages, special lore etc...) and so seek one another out for in game benefits that go along with role play
- Religious characters actual rule the religious life in the world. they can convert you. they have sacred sites with resources that others need.
ack... out of time. |
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Re: Would you like to play a game?
Posted: 19 Jul 2013 11:50 PM |
Economy is probably the hardest thing to balance. Just look at all those MMOs out there. SWTOR was a good example. The economy just got tanked because of imbalances... Personally I love crafting systems, especially if they somehow contribute to building items other people can use and if there's progression to be made there. A good example of a nice crafting system (imho) was in GW2.
I definitely never got rich there and still made some nice money, which I then mostly spent buying other components again to upgrade my other gear and that of my wife's character.
I do remember being fairly rich in Vives, but that was taken care of by DM led events as well. For instance, X paid for the renovation of Khadros manor to store the library books from La Sapienza. Way before that I had to pay a ransom for Balthor's corpse after he got himself eaten partially by the huge blue dragon (what was his name again????). Which reminds me, Balthor owes Xaranthir 150,000 gp plus interest.
There need to be money sinks (housing, maybe paying to allow to have a lab in a city - hazard insurance for instance). And back to crafting: I did like it a lot that crafting gave rewards towards leveling as well. It made sense that as a master craftsperson, one would become better at certain things (okay maybe not swinging your scythe around but that's more the dnd system than anything else....). The crafting in itself was often cause for roleplay - demand & supply problems; a good crafter but unable to get the stuff versus someone who could get the hides for instance but couldn't do anything with them. People interacted just because of that.
As for leveling, I prefer slow leveling with no hard caps. I don't like caps on anything to be honest (hence why I am no fan of permadeath either). I was always amazed at those people who managed to shoot up in level in no time on Vives, but I didn't care. After sinking 1700-1800 hours into a character I think it was reasonable to be level 31-32. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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