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Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 16 Aug 2008 10:10 PM |
Here is my take on Monks so far:
A Monks goal in life is enlightenment. How this is achived and what enlightenment truly is has differing views, even within Asashi.
The common thing though, is that it can only be achieved through strict discipline, and adherence to the wows the monk has made, without fail.
A Monk does not (or at least should not) care for wordly things, much like a Paladin, and will relinquish these if it serves his cause in any way.
On to the questions:
-What is the view on monks and multiclassing in Vives? I know that in some PnP campaigns you have to start out as a Monk, and if you take levels in another class, you may never again take levels as a Monk. You may still use the gained Monk powers as long as you remain lawful, but will loose them if your alignments shifts. This does not seem to be the case in Vives, as far as i have learned from the DM's, but i would know what the restrictments are, beyond what it says in the PHB.
- I think i read somewhere (some PnP guidebook i belive) that Monks and Druids are complete opposites, Monks being seperate from the world, focusing mostly on the realm of abstract thought. Druids are exactly the other way around, living fully in the world, enjoying the winds, the warmth, the song of the birds, generally letting themselves be affected by the world, nature and the season to the extent that it becomes their power, and thus is allowed to control nature to the extent that they are attuned. In a way Monks strive to become seperate from the world, as far as becoming ousiders at lvl 20, whilst Druids strive to become more part of it, going as far as being able to become one of the elements (Elemental shapeshift).
- The more i think on these things, the more it seems like my character, Monk/Druid is an impossibility. Does anyone else have any experience RP'ing this sort of build? I am certain that it would be a rewarding experience to actually RP finding this balance between being part of the world, and being seperate from it, transcending the very concepts, but i have a feeling i will need to hire some famous philosopher to solve it.
I post this here instead of PM'ing the DM's, to allow everyone who's had any questions about Monks or has played Monks, to pipe in and hopefully learn something from it.
As in my previous post, i am sure there has been similar discussions before, so please put up any relevant links. |
IG Character: Turandir |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 17 Aug 2008 12:01 AM |
-What is the view on monks and multiclassing in Vives?
There are no restrictions on monks and multiclassing, so long as it makes sense.
- I think i read somewhere (some PnP guidebook i belive) that Monks and Druids are complete opposites……
- The more i think on these things, the more it seems like my character, Monk/Druid is an impossibility. Does anyone else have any experience RP'ing this sort of build?
No one's actually ever gone down this route before, so you can be a pioneer and be the first to explore it.
This is how a lot of our lore and canon evolves. It's very player-centric and we've had a lot of PCs who are the "first" prototype write up new lore or have it developed around their character as their story progresses.
As in my previous post, i am sure there has been similar discussions before, so please put up any relevant links.
There isn't a lot of lore available for roleplaying monks. We've had players come up with a lot of elaborate notes for their own personal roleplay, but these are the only guidelines we officially use:
Lore: Asashi |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 17 Aug 2008 03:18 AM |
This sounds good so far, as i was most worried about messing up the current Lore.
Something just came to my mind when rereading the Asashi Lore.
Quoting the Asashi Lore Thread:
The Dragon School: The Path of the Aimed Fist
Sitting somewhere between the two extremes of the Serpent and Vulture schools lies the Dragon school. The Aimed Fist combines the teachings of both schools and achieves their ideal of the perfect self through striving for balance. [Favoured Abilities: DEX, WIS]
I just remembered that reading this was the basis for my character when i created him a couple of years ago. He relies on dexterity when fighting, using swift strikes and evasions to take his opponents balance, whilst maintaing his own. The Dragon school strives for balance, like a Druid does, though perhaps in another way. The Monk/Druid may then be justifiable in that he seeks to balance out his combat abilities by gaining as much knowledge about nature as possible. His reason from the start to set out from Asashi was to study animals in combat/hunting, learning their movements, thus it also seemed natural (no pun intended) to make his Deity Elbereth.
It may seem like i'm doing a lot of nitpicking here, but i would really like to get all my facts together before setting up my character profile, which is long overdue. Anyone who's ever had a Monk character is very welcome to chime in with their views on what a Monk is. Any thoughts on my interpretation of the Dragon School? Some constructive criticism would be very useful to me at this point. |
IG Character: Turandir |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 17 Aug 2008 07:29 AM |
I take the view that just because your character has the monk class doesn't mean they see themselves as a monk.
I have a character (Roywyne the Trickster) who is a monk/sorcerer/cleric who's unarmed attacks consist of kicking her opponent's in the shins, and who believes is more interested in releasing her inner child than in achieving enlightenment. (Although I'm not sure how this is viewed by the Vives staff)
In the case of a monk/druid, the monk levels could represent bestial slam attacks or similar. This may not be appropriate for your character, but there's still no need for him to think of himself as still being a monk (unless you want him to of course). |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 17 Aug 2008 02:46 PM |
As far as i have understood, the Monk class is very particular. It is a lot more than just unarmed fighting, and these skills are more a byproduct of the strict training than what the class is really about. Otherwise the character would just be a fighter who was good at fighting with fist and feet.
Monks recieve many quasimagical abilities (immunity to disease, still mind, ki strike, etc.) that would require strict training, usually under some form of master. Of course some sort of genius might be able to teach himself. I belive the Vives Lore clearly states (can't find it now for quote) that all PC Monks hail from Asashi. Having a Druid for instance, and giving him one level of monk may well be convinient from a game mechanincs viewpoint, but may be hard to justify IC.
Still, one here has to ask what a Monk really is. A Fighter is likely to be just that, someone who's good at fighting, and a Rogue is a thief/conman/assassin/whatever. In short very open for interpretation. Is one allowed to interpret the Monk class just as openly? DM verdict? |
IG Character: Turandir |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 17 Aug 2008 03:31 PM |
Baldrin is right. Vives lore does state that Monks in Vives originate from Asashi:
Monk [Intermediate]
All monks in Vives are trained in Asashi.
(Original thread found here.)
The Asashi thread provides a little more background on monks and their definition.
While I personally advocate flexibility as far as mechanics go, particularly D&D mechanics and the way they are implemented in NWN, I do think there are two key points to take in mind.
First, the lore is the lore, and unless stated or permitted otherwise it should be adhered to.
Second, as Baldrin pointed out, the Monk class is more than just an unarmed fighter. Monks possess a range of paranormal abilities which are linked to the Monk's unique training and state of mind. I don't think Monk abilities should be explained in any other ways, neither magical abilities, blessing from the gods, demonic pacts or whatever -- much like a sorcerer cannot be a druid or a cleric cannot be a wizard.
Some classes may provide greater latitude than others, but I don't see the Monk as such a class. To quote from the Asashi lore thread: "Finally, to continue to use monk powers, a monk must be lawful. Monks must remain focused all the time. Monks must follow the steps, the rules, the path to enlightenment. It is this focus and this adherence to rules, this discipline of body and mind, that grants you your powers."
That said, it doesn't mean a Monk can't have a little more variety than the tiny amount of lore already offered. Monks can follow a certain path but don't have to be tied exclusively to it. Nothing says a Monk can't be a follower of Elbereth and find his own inner focus through faith in her ideals, just like nothing states that a follower of Elbereth isn't allowed to be a lawful monk.
That said, and according to the Asashi lore, a monk must be lawful. This makes sense, but as someone who doesn't like the alignment grid much (since I don't think something as complex as morality can be portrayed in a lawful/chaotic-good/evil scale) I like having a more open-minded approach to what lawful, chaotic, good or evil mean. Being lawful for a paladin might not mean the same as being lawful for a monk, but the fact is both classes are expected to act lawfully towards -something-.
In conclusion, there are rules in place, and there are mechanics and place, and while I believe those should be adhered to (whether their form in the current one or whether it changes), it doesn't mean they cannot be expanded. |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 17 Aug 2008 03:42 PM |
A Monk should have when starting out at the absolute minimum a master from which to learn. Asashi is the most convenient place to find a master. No others are common knowledge.
I agree that a Monk has a special set of skills that require training - at least to start out on the path.
Given the above, it is much easier to start out as a monk, and then stray to other classes.
Baldrin, I see no reason why Turandir could not have started out as a Monk then digressed as a druid. This is also open to a range of interpretation. How do the powers of the druid and the disciplines of the monk work together? Do they synthesize together something new? Are they separate, parallel paths?
In the Japanese epic about Musashi, he does wander off into the wilderness to learn from nature. The real Musashi wrote a book, The Book of Five Rings, which seems to suggest that he actually did so. |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 17 Aug 2008 07:26 PM |
| I made a "Samurai" who was a druid/monk whose master was going to be Veran's "Samurai" character. I quickly got bored of the character though from either bad implementation or whatever, and just didn't like how she worked mechanically. |
CHOO CHOO!
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Bereil Yadashem.
Markus Mortriety, Herald of Novus Aristi. |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 18 Aug 2008 06:46 AM |
What The Jester said confirms what i've learned so far. Monks are a bit of a special class, with specific Lore, much like Paladins, though of course not that restricted.
Baldrin, I see no reason why Turandir could not have started out as a Monk then digressed as a druid. This is also open to a range of interpretation. How do the powers of the druid and the disciplines of the monk work together? Do they synthesize together something new? Are they separate, parallel paths?
In the Japanese epic about Musashi, he does wander off into the wilderness to learn from nature. The real Musashi wrote a book, The Book of Five Rings, which seems to suggest that he actually did so.
Ah, now you've put me onto something grand. I read the Go Rin no Sho some years ago. The idea of the five elements in there can easily be translated to druidic terms. Why did i not think of this before? To find balance, one has to embody equally the elements of earth (chi), water (sui/mizu), fire (ka/hi), and air (fu/kaze). Thus one may enter the void (ku), which can be likened to the inner silence that students of Zen seeks for. Seeking to balance the elements can well serve as the ultimate goal for a druid. Ooo! I think im getting somewhere. Gonna pluck forth some of my old budo books.
This does however get me into an entire new line of questions:
- In D&D settings, Monks are usually based on japanese/chinese martial arts and philosophy, even going so far as to use Japanese names for weapons and feats (katana, kama, zen archery, to name a few). How would it fit with the Lore to use some of these terms in game? Japanse/chinese words and concepts are notoriusly hard to translate properly. It might also add a bit of flavour to the character, to use some of these words and concepts, but i see the problem with using a real language to perhaps mean something else than it really does, in a fantasy setting. I would however, aspire to putting up a list of terms that might be applicable Monk Lore.
These are all real terms used in Budo and/or eastern philosophy: (let it be noted however, that this is my personal interpretation of the terms, and others may beg to differ)
Sensei - In martial arts this is a teacher, but can be used as an honorific term for any kind of knowledgeable person (doctors, lawyers, professors, etc.) The word Shisho means master, and may be used by a student who trains under one specific master, when speaking to him.
Kihon - Means basic. Here the basic movements of a martial art. It is said that before one can learn any advanced techniques, one must have strong kihon.
Kamae - Usually a fighting stance, but can mean any posture. It encompasses both the mind and the body, and can perhaps best be described as an attitude. The word tachi can be used to mean just a fighting stance, referring to mostly to how the legs are positioned.
Ma-ai - The distance between opponents. Controlling the Ma-ai is considered paramount, as this is what sets the timing and angles of attack. Sword schools, and also Kendo speak alot of this term, as one slight misstep is what will spell victory or defeat in a swordfight.
Zanshin - Relates to a state of total awareness. When, as an example, one has defeated one attacker, it is said to be of utmost importance to maintain zanshin and kamae to be ready for other attackers, and the movements of the downed opponent. Zanshin is by some considered to be the ultimate kamae, or the essence of kamae. It is the complete oneness and completion of an action. I have also seen this written as three minds, likely relating to the aspect of balancing the mind, body and spirit, or shin-gi-tai (mind, technique, body).
Fudoshin - The immovable heart. To be firmly rooted and unshakable in the present. Yielding only what is neccesary, like an old willow weathering a storm, one maintains kamae throughout.
Mushin - Lit. No mind. This is the concept of releasing all thought, emotion, and ego. One is thus free to act and react directly out of the subconscious, without having to take the time for conscious thought.
Go gyo- This is the philosophy regarding the five elements, earth (chi), water (sui/mizu), fire (ka/hi), air (fu/kaze), and void (ku).
Ryu - School/martial tradition. Not to be confused with the word for dragon, which is pronounced exactly the same.
Densho - The teachings of a martial school/ryuha. Often ancient, these are written in cryptic words, where the reader of the scroll would have had to train for a long time in the related school, to make anything useful out of it.
There are quite a few others one might add to the list, but i prefer to keep it short, for now. If anyone feels there is something they would add to it, please speak up.
I have no intentions to turn Vives into some japanese spouting animé, but i think some of these terms might help bring a bit of spice and depth to Asashi Lore, and the Monk class in general. One would of course have to agree upon the validity of using these terms, to avoid confusion. I would not think such knowledge to be considered common outside of Asashi. Perhaps translating these concepts into some sort of elven words would sit better with Vives Lore? Asashi combat arts came from Lynaeum with master Lie-Kwa. The concepts could be considered ancient words from Lynaeum perhaps. |
IG Character: Turandir |
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Re: Baldrin beats another dead horse: Monks.
Posted: 18 Aug 2008 08:26 AM |
A Monk should have when starting out at the absolute minimum a master from which to learn. Asashi is the most convenient place to find a master. No others are common knowledge.
I agree that a Monk has a special set of skills that require training - at least to start out on the path.
Given the above, it is much easier to start out as a monk, and then stray to other classes.
Baldrin, I see no reason why Turandir could not have started out as a Monk then digressed as a druid. This is also open to a range of interpretation. How do the powers of the druid and the disciplines of the monk work together? Do they synthesize together something new? Are they separate, parallel paths?
In the Japanese epic about Musashi, he does wander off into the wilderness to learn from nature. The real Musashi wrote a book, The Book of Five Rings, which seems to suggest that he actually did so.
Ok, I can live with this. In that case Roywyne had a master who was just as irritating as she is.
I don't think samurai can be represented very well with NwN classes. The closest you can get is a pure class fighter. I've never heard of samurai seeking enlightenment. From what I've heard, they were very like the ancient greek warriors "a healthy mind in a healythy body" and so on.
I understand that there are three different sets of rules for PnP samurai. I've seen two myself. One is just a fighter with a special 'ancestor ceremony' the other gets to special abilities that help it to intimidate it's opponents and hit harder. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Monk Lore
Posted: 18 Aug 2008 08:45 AM |
Ah, now you've put me onto something grand. I read the Go Rin no Sho some years ago. The idea of the five elements in there can easily be translated to druidic terms. Why did i not think of this before? To find balance, one has to embody equally the elements of earth (chi), water (sui/mizu), fire (ka/hi), and air (fu/kaze). Thus one may enter the void (ku), which can be likened to the inner silence that students of Zen seeks for. Seeking to balance the elements can well serve as the ultimate goal for a druid. Ooo! I think im getting somewhere. Gonna pluck forth some of my old budo books.
*Shifty look* Have you been secretly reading our Vives 2 notes?
This does however get me into an entire new line of questions:
- In D&D settings, Monks are usually based on japanese/chinese martial arts and philosophy, even going so far as to use Japanese names for weapons and feats (katana, kama, zen archery, to name a few). How would it fit with the Lore to use some of these terms in game? Japanse/chinese words and concepts are notoriusly hard to translate properly. It might also add a bit of flavour to the character, to use some of these words and concepts, but i see the problem with using a real language to perhaps mean something else than it really does, in a fantasy setting. I would however, aspire to putting up a list of terms that might be applicable Monk Lore.
We've had this question before and it's a very delicate balance. In general, we have kept the names that we can't change (katana, zen archery), but everything else must still fit in a predominantly European-themed fantasy setting, meaning using English names and phrases (The Path of the Thinking Mind) and/or inventing words and phrases that sound like they fit within the framework of the setting.
In particular we've had someone ask if they ought to use the phrase "sensei" and we have decided that a term such as "master" would be more appropriate.
I would suggest doing something similar to what George Lucas did with Star Wars and inventing words. Asashi, despite its proximity to Ferein and the Slyvian territory, actually has very little to do with Elves, so the Elven language is probably not the best basis. Asashi itself is unusually eclectic (based on the PC monks that have come from there), not deriving its philosophy or language from any of the major factions in Vives, which could explain why odd words like "kama" were invented there... and exotic weaponry and fighting techniques, for that matter.
Player backgrounds and notes that the DM team have received in the past have varied wildly, indicating that perhaps each student and/or each master may even invent their own styles and there aren't really actually any standard phrases. What one monk might call "Deflect Arrows", another might call "The Snapping Turtle", for instance. It's almost as if the moves themselves are the common language but the names change from generation to generation, leaving only the schools/ways as constants over the centuries. I get the impression that if you had a Gnome who only spoke Gnomish and a Half-Orc who only spoke Orcish, for example, they could probably communicate perfectly well by having a sparring match.
In the grand scheme of things, Asashi itself is not that old, founded in 14399* (620 years ago). With regards to the surrounding neighbourhood, that puts it at far younger than either of the Elven populations, but centuries older than Midor's expansion into Icy Vale and Gladden (and consequently the founding of M'Gok Tukar), indicating that it is likely not Midoran in origin, as most of the Human settlements are. It could be of Port Royale origin but more likely it was founded by a group of like-minded and diverse people who happened to like the area and built a school there, hence lending it its political neutrality. Then again, the founding of Asashi has never been officially addressed, so there's a lot of room for writing lore there as well. |
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Re: Monk Lore
Posted: 19 Aug 2008 07:30 AM |
*Shifty look* Have you been secretly reading our Vives 2 notes?
Wouldn't you like to know;) No really, if i'm onto some of the same things you're using for Vives 2, the future is looking bright for a character i considered scrapping due to seeminlgy poor choices.
Player backgrounds and notes that the DM team have received in the past have varied wildly, indicating that perhaps each student and/or each master may even invent their own styles and there aren't really actually any standard phrases. What one monk might call "Deflect Arrows", another might call "The Snapping Turtle", for instance. It's almost as if the moves themselves are the common language but the names change from generation to generation, leaving only the schools/ways as constants over the centuries. I get the impression that if you had a Gnome who only spoke Gnomish and a Half-Orc who only spoke Orcish, for example, they could probably communicate perfectly well by having a sparring match.
Yes, inventing a few english word/concepts for japanese terms that aren't possible to translate directly, seems a fun challenge, if nothing else. As an example, a technique, Setsuyaku, is written with characters that implies giving the opponent the feeling as if he slipped on ice/snow, when being thrown. Naming it "Snow Drop" or some such liberal translation (can't remember the direct translation now), would give someone listening in a clue as to what it is about, whilst still retaining a bit of mystery. I would imagine each school/path/master within Asashi could develop their own names for often similar techniques, as many times is the case for real world martial arts schools.
As to current Asashi Lore, a lot of it seems possible to make up on the fly, since there is no official statement on it. Nothing wrong with this, but it might be nice to have some common ground at a few critical points. Jumping to mind is residing masters that a newly created Monk is to have trained under. When two Monks meet IG, perhaps having a discussion, it seems natural that one might ask the other which master he trained under. The master could then perhaps be recongnized as an authority on some subject, or perhaps as being very controversial. This is of course going very in-depth, for a class that may not be played that much (I wouldn't know). I might be willing, time permitting, to type up a few profiles for masters for DM approval, if there is any interest on the subject.
I might even aspire to compiling some more Lore for the DM's to have a look at. I do this mostly for the reason of fleshing out my own character, as im currently hammering out his profile to make him more interesting. I do hope a few others might benefit from my ramblings too, however. If there's something you people would like to see in the Lore, or think is fitting for Monks in general, do make suggestions. I'll see about putting everything into a neat package for DM approval. (They seem to have a blessedly open mind in the subject) |
IG Character: Turandir |
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Re: Monk Lore
Posted: 19 Aug 2008 09:30 AM |
If you search through the forums there should be character backgrounds and stories for monk characters. Off the top of my head:
* Luther McIath - The most prominent monk on the server, known for being fat, bald and wearing dresses *grins and ducks under a flurry of superhumanly fast blows*
* Sion Asa - Was before my time, but is mentioned in the PHB and probably also mentioned in older storylines (eg. Mykal Vecar's chronicles)
* Samic - A facade of meditative calm hides a troubleseeking mischief-maker (no really, ask the trouble-o-meter)
* Frolly Twosteps - Itty bitty monk
* Emma Robinson - Wrote a lot of background notes and makes mention of a lot of the monk training and Asashi in the roleplaying forums |
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