| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Display using:
|
|
Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 01:03 PM |
It seems appropriate to me for someone to create a thread, for discussion on the Vives 2 xp system. While I feel this should probably be Arathon or another of the builders, I can't see much harm in doing this myself.
However before discussing the xp functions themselves, it makes sense for us agree on what we want the xp system to achieve. As best I can gather from posts in other threads the following points cover the criteria for the system.
1) Players should gain levels at a rate similar to in normal NwN at level 1. The rate of gain of levels should decrease until at level 10 It should take many hours of game play to gain a level.
2) It should be possible to gain xp from as many different activities as it is practical to script.
3) Hypothetically a PC that gains xp entirely from one activity (other than RP) should gain xp at the same rate as a PC that gains xp entirely from any other activity (other than RP) so long as the two activities are equally 'in character' for that PC.
4) Hypothetically a PC that up until one point gains xp entirely from one activity and thereafter gains xp entirely from another activity, should continue to gain xp at the same rate as he would have done had he continued to gain xp from the first activity.
5) Weaker characters should gain xp more quickly than stronger characters.
6) PCs should gain most xp from doing whatever is ‘in character’ for that PC, and proportionally less for activities less in character.
I will have made mistakes here, possibly even in the first sentence of this post. Don't hesitate to correct or point out exceptions to any points I have made.
Once we have established the criteria for the system it should be easy to establish the functions necessary for the builders to script.
So... Any ideas? |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 01:41 PM |
"1) Players should gain levels at a rate similar to in normal NwN at level 1. The rate of gain of levels should decrease until at level 10 It should take many hours of game play to gain a level."
I think it's more of establishing how long it should take a player to reach level ten playing on a regular basis, working at regular speed. 50 hours? 100 hours? 500 hours? Naturally it should scale as it goes up, on a curve. After that, how long should it take a player to reach level 11? And 12? And so on. By reaching level 20, should a player have invested 1,000 hours? 2,000? Does that consider death penalties?
"2) It should be possible to gain xp from as many different activities as it is practical to script."
Alternatively, why not just award experience gains for absolutely everything? A player is either fighting, questing, crafting, exploring, or role-playing. We intend to award experience for all of these activities anyway. Instead of awarding experience for crafting, and having another table for fighting, and having another table for using skills, for each skill, for each class, why not just have an experience "pulse" that awards experience based on a single table every ten minutes? The table could be based on experience gains to reach a specific level goal by X amount of hours invested as determined above. Then each class could have a multiplier on gains based on the relative power of the class (1x, or regular gains, for a fighter, whereas .5x for a cleric, or 1.25x for a bard). All the game would have to do would be to make a check that a player performed an action in the last ten minutes. It would certainly cut down on looking for people to exploit the experience systems and stop power gamers entirely. All you'd have to watch out for are idlers, and you can probably come up with some way to handle that. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 02:00 PM |
Lets leave deciding anything numerical for the time being.
I don't think I am really able to comment on the second part of the post. I doubt many people would like that system, but its good to have established what the extreme in game balance is.
Perhaps I should add some point about encouraging role-playing to the list? |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 03:01 PM |
Actually, I almost like DiabloStan's idea, except that people would be gaining XP dungeon crawling in sewers killing rats at the same rate people would gain XP from dungeon crawling and killing dragons :O
Of course, if loot were scaled appropriately for the different encounters, that could be a good driving force for people to move on to bigger and better things. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 03:08 PM |
Thats pretty much my attitude to it too. I think players should still gain RP and questing xp though, in order to keep the game story based.
Thinking about it his system satisfies all the criteria I listed save 6. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 05:21 PM |
Actually, I almost like DiabloStan's idea, except that people would be gaining XP dungeon crawling in sewers killing rats at the same rate people would gain XP from dungeon crawling and killing dragons :O
Of course, if loot were scaled appropriately for the different encounters, that could be a good driving force for people to move on to bigger and better things.
And it severely reduces the list of things that DMs have to look for when it comes to powergaming.
Perhaps it could be coded that each area has a "level requirement" for it to count towards your experience gains. Rat town might only yield pulse experience for levels 1-3, and then reduce to nothing per pulse, or 1 per pulse. That seems like it would be difficult to code, though.
Thinking about it his system satisfies all the criteria I listed save 6.
How do the mechanics decide what's "in character" for a PC? Race and class? I disagree. I'm a huge fan of inordinary race/class combinations, and don't want to be punished because I want to be a dwarven wizard with a flair for leatherworking.
Using a system like this with Crafting, I agree with gaining Crafting experience, but doing it in this way shouldn't yield character experience also. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 05:44 PM |
I dislike the idea of a time requirement for achieving a level.
What if I don't want to level that fast? What if I want to get the character to level 6 in short order and just play at that level?
This is actually how I play. I just want a certain spread of talents for RP purposes and then I simply play because leveling further is not a goal. If it happens, great, but otherwise it is so dang tedious to grind away just to get the level.
The other reason why I don't like it is that people would gain experience by just sitting around and chatting in a bar. Many seem to consider this roleplaying, which it is, but it is far from the only way you role play. I find that it gets boring pretty fast. After my first few weeks in game, I steered clear of that stuff in game. However role playing on an adventure, or role playing intrigue or a social event like buckshire fair or a performance - or any of the other things that have some interesting story element to them is a whole other thing. But to punch your XP clock while RPing sitting around and chatting about nothing in particular... no thank you. I'd rather that not be encouraged. And it bothers me that PCs would ever get XP for it.
And lastly, playing this game should not resemble in anyway punching a clock. I'd rather that none of the mechanisms work like that.
I only watch the clock to determine if I have played too much. When I have exceeded my weekly quota, I'm done for the week. But anyway... thats just me. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 05:59 PM |
I have no good argument to this statement beyond saying "Well, that's just your opinion." I can, however, expand upon that.
With a time-based system, you can go off into the woods and fight and gain experience and loot because that's what you like to do, and people who like to sit in a bar and role-play gain experience too. Why should they get experience for that? It's role-play. We're awarded role-play experience ANYWAY. It awards a character experience for doing what's appropriate to that character (thereby fulfilling requirement number six, since you naturally get less experience for doing things out of character because you don't do them anyway).
I can't answer to it feeling sort of like "punching a clock." What I will say is that no matter how the system works, it will be based on doing a certain amount of work to produce a certain amount of results.
I can solve that problem, actually. Certain areas for each level have repeatable quests that provide an appropriate amount of experience for combat-related actions (collecting skeleton skulls, etc.) thus encouraging role-play gained through combat, which is balanced by increasing the potential to die. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 06:05 PM |
I want to see some spread sheets on this XP system. Each action must be rated versus potential character death.
If you do this, I guarantee you will get PDW's attention. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 06:24 PM |
Let's make some basic assumptions.
(1) Our character is at minimum experience for level 4 (6,000 experience).
(2) We want it to take around 10 hours of game play (600 minutes, 60 pulses) to reach level 5, or 67 experience per pulse, assuming you're getting regular experience.
(3) Experience gains are based on class, location, and relative threat of said location.
Our characters are Dagwood, level 4 Cleric (.75x gains), Thurgood, level 4 fighter (1x gains), and Robin Hood, level 4 bard (1.25x gains).
Safe Location: .75x
Effortless Area (Rat Town): .25x
Challenging Area (Zombieville): 1x
Very Dangerous Area (Centaur World): 1.5x
Extremely Dangerous Area (Lich Land): .75x
My justification for reducing experience pulses in extremely dangerous locations is that if you're there, you're probably not doing anything useful.
So, looking at the experience gains for Dagwood in each location, and the relative amount of time it would take to level up doing just that are 38/17.5hrs, 13/51.3hrs, 50/13.3hrs, 75/8.9hrs, and 38/17.5hrs (respectively).
For Thurgood, it's 50/13.3hrs, 16/41.6hrs, 67/9.9hrs, 100/6.7hrs, and 50/13.3hrs.
For Robin Hood, it's 62/10.8hrs, 21/31.7hrs, 84/7.9hrs, 126/5.3hrs, and 62/10.8hrs.
This excludes quest and role-play experience. Note that it takes a fighter battling even-leveled monsters almost exactly 10 hours to reach the level, as intended. This is, of course, all hypothetical from the start. Then when you start imagining potential role-play bonus awards, quest experience (perhaps repeatable quests for experience comparable to the difficulty, 100 experience for killing 20 guys or whatever), you could speed it up even further.
Edit - The final equation for pulse experience is (Required Experience For Level * Class Multiplier * Location Multiplier )/[Average Desired Level Time in Hours * (60/Minutes Per Pulse)]. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:10 PM |
This system seems extremely easy to exploit, however.
What's stopping a character from logging on and simply walking around for a couple of hours, doing nothing?
Or claiming to have to go AFK while in Centaur World and sucking up a good deal of EXP?
It's an interesting system, and one I certainly wouldn't mind having implemented, but I doubt it would work to a satisfactory degree.
My own idea comes from another server. This server has a system that rewards players for typing in lines of text - 2 points of EXP for every four lines of text, or something like that. Nothing too dramatic.
It helps balance the roleplayers and the powergamers; and gives incentive to actually roleplay as opposed to just kill stuff. |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:18 PM |
What's stopping a character from logging on and simply walking around for a couple of hours, doing nothing?
We offer exploration experience anyway. If you're walking around in safe places, you're getting much less experience. Just tweak the "Safe Place" multiplier until it's appropriate. If you're walking around in dangerous places, you're probably getting in combat. My final argument is that if you walked around for two hours, it would be good exercise. You'd get something out of it, your character would too.
Or claiming to have to go AFK while in Centaur World and sucking up a good deal of EXP?
The same thing that's stopping you from finding a nice safe place, casting every spell you can, resting, and doing it over. The DMs. Also, there should be an idle limit of 15/20 minutes, and then you're kicked. Additionally, you should only be granted experience for each ten minute interval that you actually perform an action. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:31 PM |
I walk around all day long here, and even do job related tasks on a regular basis. But I'm still a level 3 enlisted person This world's XP system sucks :P |
|
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:37 PM |
The DMs.
But the DM's aren't on 24/7. Sure, they might have been at one time, but as can be observed in Vives now, that won't always be.
Also, from what I understand, most systems recognize being 'Idle' as no activity whatsoever. If the system you propose is the same, someone could simply move their mouse in circles while reading a book, or Alt+Tab between programs every couple of minutes or so. |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:40 PM |
A system should never be not considered based on how it can be taken advantage of. If somebody is doing that for 20 hours, or 50 hours, or 100 hours, chances are somebody is going to notice (player or DM) and report it, and proper disciplinary actions will be taken.
Edit - But honestly, who cares? If all you're doing is hiding in the bathroom, gaining experience, when you come out at level 7, what do you have? No crafting experience, no role-play experience, no loot from monsters, and half the server is already useless to you. You're nerfing yourself. Also, you've just spent the last 400 hours doing nothing. You're an idiot. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:42 PM |
| Remember, this community also tends to be self-policing. Other players won't stand for that garbage either. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:50 PM |
| Change the pulse time to five minute intervals and it solves the problem altogether. Or two minutes. Tabbing out every four minutes/90 seconds would be really, really aggravating. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 09:18 PM |
In order to make the equation more easy to determine, I made the assumption that the easiest way to handle it would be to attach a "time multiplier" to each higher level. What I mean is that the increase in time required to level is based on a formula in and of itself. I created a sample chart, assuming that it should take 1 hour to reach level 2, and then 1.75 times the amount of time required for each additional level.
Level 1 - 1 Hour
Level 2 - 1.75 Hours (2.75 Total)
Level 3 - 3.06 Hours (5.81 Total)
Level 4 - 5.35 Hours (11.16 Total)
Level 5 - 9.36 Hours (20.52 Total)
Level 6 - 16.38 Hours (36.9 Total)
Level 7 - 28.67 Hours (65.57 Total)
Level 8 - 50.17 Hours (115.74 Total)
Level 9 - 87.80 Hours (203.54 Total)
This can be tweaked of course to the development team's desire. The final equation becomes the following:
Level (L)
Class Multiplier (C)
Location Multiplier (P)
Time Multiplier As described above (T)
Pulse Interval Minutes Per Pulse (I)
Pulse Experience (X)
(1,000 * L * C * P)/[T^(L-1)/(60/I)] = X |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 01:18 AM |
| *reads with some interest* |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 02:41 AM |
In order to make the equation more easy to determine, I made the assumption that the easiest way to handle it would be to attach a "time multiplier" to each higher level. What I mean is that the increase in time required to level is based on a formula in and of itself. I created a sample chart, assuming that it should take 1 hour to reach level 2, and then 1.75 times the amount of time required for each additional level.
Level 1 - 1 Hour
Level 2 - 1.75 Hours (2.75 Total)
Level 3 - 3.06 Hours (5.81 Total)
Level 4 - 5.35 Hours (11.16 Total)
Level 5 - 9.36 Hours (20.52 Total)
Level 6 - 16.38 Hours (36.9 Total)
Level 7 - 28.67 Hours (65.57 Total)
Level 8 - 50.17 Hours (115.74 Total)
Level 9 - 87.80 Hours (203.54 Total)
This can be tweaked of course to the development team's desire. The final equation becomes the following:
Level (L)
Class Multiplier (C)
Location Multiplier (P)
Time Multiplier As described above (T)
Pulse Interval Minutes Per Pulse (I)
Pulse Experience (X)
(1,000 * L * C * P)/[T^(L-1)/(60/I)] = X
Look, I don’t what sort of quack school you went to, but this looks suspiciously like that new math they’re teaching where you don’t have to get the correct answer to be right. As long as we all try, we win…whatever…plus, you’ve forgotten the Golden Mean and the Plodget Multiplier (duh!), so that
L = number of times you’ve died right before gaining a level
C = number of gnomes in the world
P = number of gnomes killed all time
T = number of times Cedrych has died trying to kill an Atalan
0 = number of times Cedrych has killed an Atalan (may well be an imaginary number)
A = number of times Cedrych has gotten his a$ kicked by just about everything else (round to infinity)
T = time in hours between Cedrych gaining level 13 and 14 (round to nearest google)
I think the equation should be obvious from here, so I’ll let you do it.
I do have a point here though….sorta…I think these ideas all sound very interesting. I’m more a big picture guy, no one to get down in the details, but I appreciate the process of just bouncing ideas around.
But I just want to say, I think the Vives 1 xp system is just fine. Really. Truly. I’d much rather have Admins and GMs working on stories, etc. That’s just me. I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade. So please keep discussing. It’s just, we won’t have a system that pleases everybody, and having xp activities tailored to certain classes as is done in Vives1 seems just about as complex as it needs to be. Just my two cents (rounded up)… |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 05:54 AM |
| (T is approximately 113) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 07:28 AM |
| Just played around with some numbers real fast while waiting for patients to come in. The math seems fairly sound, though I might extend the time between levels, maybe double or triple them, since V2 is supposed to be rather slow leveling (or so I was under the impression). |
|
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 08:46 AM |
I have to say... some of the ideas here are intriguing, but I would hate to see them on Vives.
I like the XP system Vives currently uses: you gain experience for various actions your PC undertakes. Fighting, using skills, casting spells, completing quests, role playing, exploring. The XP gained from each action is calculated different for different classes. This is good and it works. It can work better, of course, but from what I heard so far I deduced that the scripting team is already implementing a better method for Vives2.
I find a few fundamental flaws in how the current XP system used by Vives works:
1) The XP rewards for fighting and exploration continued to grow along with the world, as new monsters and new areas were added. Reward for other activities, barring role play, has stayed static. While everyone can benefit from exploration and fighting, it is at a different rate. There should be an equilibrium.
2) XP rewards gained by use of skills was implemented in certain areas, but not in others. A lock in Lynaeum yields XP gain, but a lock in Undraeth wouldn't. A system which rewards the use of the skill rather than what it was used on would serve the purpose better (as I understood from the MotB thread, this is what's being done for V2).
3) XP rewards gained from casting spells is very limited. There are only so many spells in the game, and once a caster has tapped them all, he is out of his primary XP source. Some spellcasters even have a limited selection of spells, leaving them even more at a disadvantage. Maybe the pool can be expanded by rewarding the use of metamagic as if a new spell was cast, and even rewarding the use of scrolls.
Other than that, I think the system can work fantastically.
I certainly don't like the idea of a time limit or requirement. If I want to spend all my time fighting monsters and rise in levels, I should be able to do so however I please it. If I can gain 200,000 XP and get to level <whatever> in 10 hours because I'm just so darned good - no limitation should stop be from doing so. The limitation SHOULD be placed on how I am gaining that 200,000 XP rather than how long I should have played so I can get to level <whatever>. A system in which the XP pool degenerates the more you tap into it does create the plateau Vives is going after.
Setting exact parameters for character growth is the worst thing I can imagine. It reminds me of our military promotion system here in Israel - you get promoted based on the time you've spent in service rather than your actual achievements, so you could spend your time wiping your a$$ all day and still become first sergeant. PCs should get rewarded and progress for doing stuff, not for wiping their butts for the course of 10-30-100-250-500 hours, and if a PC achieves 10 things in 1 hour, he SHOULD gain FAR more experience than a PC who achieved 1 thing in 1000 hours.
Rob's idea of an "XP Pulse" actually does sound interesting for me, but - assuming I understood it correctly - I prefer seeing PCs rewarded immediately for the actual action rather than spending time in the area where the action is being done. If I don't do nothing, I shouldn't gain XP for it just because "I'm around". Experience gain SHOULD make SOME sort of sense. In addition, I don't see how it rewards PCs for their actions - it sounds like it rewards PCs for just existing.
Moreover, I think role playing XP should be gained solely on the decision of a DM - only a human being can make a valid opinion on role play, not mathematics and equations. Not all activities which are considered role play should be rewarded: I see role play XP as a reward for EXCEPTIONAL role play, rather than a reward for three PCs sitting in a bar and talking about the same thing for the tenth time in ten hours. If folk want to do that, they can go ahead, but why would there characters learn anything from it? To make the players feel better?
And one last, big remark: I don't find the need to make ANY character gain experience ANY different to ANY other character. "Weak" and "Strong" are just terms used by players who want to whine and have their cake while eating it. Not that I'm trying to suggest the system is balanced, but I am trying to say: suck it up! Don't want to play a "weak" character then don't play it - don't expect the world to come to your rescue and give you more experience if you do.
This is my two platinum pieces. Note that I don't think any suggestion done here is either bad or stupid, but I simply think a world like Vives should promote creativity, imagination and flexibility rather than rules and laws that try to make everyone feel all equal and better. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:05 AM |
Moreover, I think role playing XP should be gained solely on the decision of a DM - only a human being can make a valid opinion on role play, not mathematics and equations. Not all activities which are considered role play should be rewarded: I see role play XP as a reward for EXCEPTIONAL role play, rather than a reward for three PCs sitting in a bar and talking about the same thing for the tenth time in ten hours. If folk want to do that, they can go ahead, but why would there characters learn anything from it? To make the players feel better?
The reason I suggested this is because, as Vives is now, there's almost no incentive for roleplaying, aside from just the sheer fun of being someone else and getting to see new sides of the same people.
But from what I understand, 'roleplaying' in Vives has a very high chance of turning towards violence; that is, a group sitting around in a bar just idly talking is bound to turn their sights towards taking down an EXP well of monsters. Now, I'm not saying that it's bad or anything, but almost every time I see a group IG, they're planning on taking down some monster or other. They aren't content to sit around and keep talking. Why? Because they aren't getting EXP by sitting around and talking. Despite what's advertised on this very website, they aren't being rewarded for roleplaying, unless they happen to have the good fortune of a DM passing by and notice them.
I just thought that, perhaps, the server would try and promote roleplay more, instead of beckoning players to seek that next level with one hand and then slapping them down with the other. |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
|
|
|
Re: Vives 2 XP Functions
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:20 AM |
| I agree with a lot of what WA and IX says. It'd be nice if there were a good way of rewarding simple RP, instead of having to be fortunate enough for a DM to wander past. Maybe just an XP award based on lines of text, and then the other balancing XP awards for the other different activities a character can participate in? Just tossing that out there real fast, I'm sure we'll all gain lots of XP from the ensuing debate that will follow :P |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|