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This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 01:00 PM |
Bioware forum complaint thread
To be honest, I agree with a lot of the above. As it is right now, multiplayer is impossible. Does anyone have the same feeling about this as though you're playing Baldur's Gate (1 or 2)? "Gather your party before venturing forth"... A cousin of my wife send both his and his wife's copies back for a refund. That's how appalled they were. :-/ |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 01:09 PM |
| For the record, I loved BG2. It was and still is a good game. MP just sucked. ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 01:38 PM |
| Ack! I'm currently reading complaint no. 81 of the first post (!!), and I'm starting to feel I don't want to waste my pennies on this game at all. *sigh* Why does there have to be a Vives2? |
IG character: Alis Rapidshill |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 01:38 PM |
I agree with 99% of it too.
Don't get me started, I can play it.... barely and after some serious tweaking, even though my PC exceeds the 'so-called' minimum requirements.
Frankly, the folks who returned it had the right idea. I'm seriously considering doing exactly the same, IMO Obsidian lost the plot and lost track of what NWN is about and established. If I were to put into words what I feel about the game the language filters on the forum wouldn't handle it.
Put succinctly and avoiding Anglo-Saxon, I hate it. |
ELVES! |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 02:02 PM |
*steeples fingers*
Excellent. It's all going according to plan. Now if I could just find the time to play... |
True solace is finding none, which is to say, it is everywhere.
-Gretel Ehrlich |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 02:26 PM |
| My comp crashes when I load up the first tavern thingy. As for myself, I didn't buy NwN2 for the single player campaign, much as I didn't buy Half-Life 2 for the single player. I bought it so I had the platform so when the community started it's voodoo magic, I would be there to enjoy it. I presume there will be some very good things coming out of the community to make this fantastic. In the mean time, I'm perfectly happy letting the game sit and chill while I wait. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 03:18 PM |
I have to disagree as well. I am really enjoying playing NWN2. Granted, multiplayer does stink at present, but I have been reading about some very very nice worlds (Vives at the forfront of course) being set up. I say give it some time and when the mods start flowing and the PWs growing this game will vastly exceed NWN.
Regards;
Neek Starnipple |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 03:27 PM |
I presume there will be some very good things coming out of the community to make this fantastic. In the mean time, I'm perfectly happy letting the game sit and chill while I wait.
Pretty much exactly what I decided after trying to play this thing for several hours.
My new machine was built specifically with NWN2 in mind, and should handle the game with ease. Instead, I had to tweak for an hour to consistantly get 20 fps.
I can't believe how poor the UI is!
I'm hoping by the time the nwn community starts coming out with some good stuff, the UI and performance issues will have been patched. Until then, i'm only playing when I can't get online. |
All my problems are meaningless
But that don't make them go away
~ Neil Young "On the Beach" |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 05:05 PM |
I didn't buy it with the OC in mind either. I still haven't played either SoU or HoTU in their entirety.
My impressions of it are formed with the basis in mind of what I expect to be able to do with it in the future and I have to say that without upgrading a prefectly good machine that runs any other game in which I'm interested (including some far more graphically intensive ones) with ease, the answer to that question is not much.
To my mind Obsidian have taken something which - and I accept that NWN started out, and still is far from perfect - grew tremendously, created an enormous community of players, builders and designers with an enormous resource pool, and have by and large ignored it.
Broken it would perhaps be a better description. It's awful.
I'm not expecting everyone to agree with that, I'd be surprised if they did, but that is my opinion. |
ELVES! |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 05:06 PM |
Taken from that "sour grapes" thread that Phoenix posted a link to:
100: NWN2 rests far to much on the laurels of NWN's and the NWN's Modding Community, it in no way, shape or form stands solely upon its own Merrits. People have upgraded there systems, spent hundreds or thousands of dollars (Or Ero's depending) to play this game. The Community deserved better, the Players and Fans deserved better. NWN2 needed to be in development for another year, perhaps even two. Instead Old Content has been regurgitated, and features "new" have only been half implemented due to time constraints.
People really did not ask for much, If all NWN2 had done, was update the graphics a little and left everything else exactly the same then people would have complained a lot less.
NWN2 attempted to do far to much and instead accomplished almost nothing that it originally "promised" and have managed to trample on what made the original so great.
This will be a great game in a year, perhaps even two. The Community instead of having to bandage a couple of sore spots have to regrow limbs... and NWN2 is heavily In need to core patching (And perhaps even an expansion) to fix basic functionality and implement missing features.
Why is it that game publishers think the most important factor in selling a game is the graphics? To me, it sounds like Obsidian focused all their attention on the graphics, and only gave a cursory glance to the entire rest of the game... (you know, the things that actually make an RPG game worth playing... storyline, interaction with NPC's and companions, intuitiveness of the UI, open ended gameplay options, alignment specific choices and consequenses... creativity and imagination...)
It's as if they deliberatly set out to make an unfinnished game, with the intention of letting the mod community add the stuff that matters. That's just f$&*^% sad.
After reading that list of 101 problems (not even having read any of the rest of the posts in that thread) I feel like keeping my money and sticking with NWN1. There are fan made campaigns by the hundreads (and a lot of them with more interesting and creative stories than it sound like NWN2 has) if I ever have the urge to play single player.
As for multiplayer... I'm all for putting the Vives community to a poll as to wether they want to stick with NWN1, or switch to 2 to bring Vives 2 to life.
Really... couldn't Vives 2 be realized in NWN1? And to much greater effect? (so the graphics are a tad dated... WHO CARES? If it plays a million times better (and not just talking system performance) then what is the draw to NWN2?
Is there any reason beyond looking prettier? (all superficial anyway)
Kind of like those girls you see who are gorgeous, but have absolutely ZERO personality or brains... nice to look at, but at the end of the day, I want some substance thank you very much.
And yeah yeah... the community will eventually complete the game for Obsidian, and add in lots of cool stuff.. but that will take a while. (and from the looks of it, I'm more likely to believe its going to be closer to two years... or more)
And even THEN, it might not be anywhere as good as what we have now. It's possible.... implementing the kinds of things that make it as good as what we have now, might turn out to be more work than it's worth and people may get fed up and go back to NWN1 modding... you never know.
Anyway... I think I'm done ranting for the time being
*picks up soapbox and wanders off*
[edit] and I'm inclined to agree with Ranger... broken does seem the most fitting word. |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 05:28 PM |
| Problem is, if you stick with NwN1, you'll have your core community, and they'll slowly bleed off, and no new bodies will come in. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 05:56 PM |
Vives2 in NWN1.... *ponders*
I think it could totally work, NWN is so fully developed, The single player mods continuing to come out are a perfect testament of this. The main problems I see with working off of NWN is the object limit, but if we're starting from the ground up, that would certainly take out a lot of fluff. Actually, the main problem I see would be Population. Vives, despite it's recent draught, is still getting some awesome brand-new players to join the realm. I don't know where they are coming from, but I imagine it's probably influx from PW's deciding to end with the coming of NWN2... I know that if we decided to stick with NWN1, we could probably thrive just off of the community not interested in "Upgrading" their game, or their machines for a game that was highly anticipated, but not very well received. Especially since most other NWN PW's are going to be shutting down sooner or later. Personally, you'd have my attendance, NWN2 would probably be the end of Vives for me, I don't have the money, or the time to upgrade my machine, and my familiarity with NWN will cause me to stick around it for a few more years, even if it means consuming the infinitesmal copious supply of Community singleplayer campaigns.
If we want to escape NWN1 though, I say we port over to "ARCANUM"
I mean, Arcanum has such great character build mechanics, AND 2d art! So.... the 3d engine isn't too hot, here we are complaining about NWN2 and saying we don't care about the graphics, so there! |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 06:40 PM |
| I have yet to purchase a PC game (NWN included)that didn't need patched the day it came out! And that list of rants... hmmm I don't see anywhere in this thread it mentioned that there was a pro thread and a con thread on the Bioware site. Did any of you nay sayers look at those? For those playing along at home, the pro thread is much much longer than the con thread. IMO we move ahead to NWN2 (I know I will). |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 06:45 PM |
I have a lot of complaints with NWN2. Other than it crashing randomly, and not autosaving regularly, a really nice insult-to-injury combo (I lost 3 solid hours of gameplay to a crash, went from Neverwinter back to Fort Locke), it just feels like they said "Get it on the shelf! Nevermind quality, nevermind anything, just get it out there! The mod community will fix it for us."
In addition, the AI is god awful. I'm playing a bard, and if I don't control him every SECOND, he's casting "Haven Song" in combat. What the Hell is Haven Song good for? Nothing. He turns his inspiration off too! It forces me to pause every round (not that I can tell when one round ends and another starts) and control every single one of my four team members, making combat a matter of just getting it over with.
Dialogue is bland, and feels emotionless. "Stop arguing, or I'll kill you." Five year olds could come up with something better.
I dunno. I'm glad I bought NWN2, I'll enjoy playing it, I think the modding community will be able to produce some really great things with it (an uphill battle), but there's no doubt in my mind that NWN1 is the superior game, and I would embrace Vives2 in NWN1, personally. Don't be worried about losing playerbase to a newer game. Look at UO, for instance. Game's been around forever, and it still does well enough. People will stick to quality, and something they're used to.
Edit - I totally agree about games needing patches the day they come out. There's something about that that just screams shoddy.
One nice thing about making Vives2 in NWN1 would be the ability to use the CEP. I know a few potential players complain about us not using the CEP, and it would make getting in and playing a much simpler task for new players ("What, I have to download a gig? Screw that."). If we move to NWN2 it'll be the same thing all over; picking up .haks (or whatever they are now) as we go along, and once there's something like a CEP produced (if ever), we'll be too entrenched by picking things up as we go that we'll run into the same problem. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 07:22 PM |
I have yet to purchase a PC game (NWN included)that didn't need patched the day it came out! And that list of rants... hmmm I don't see anywhere in this thread it mentioned that there was a pro thread and a con thread on the Bioware site. Did any of you nay sayers look at those? For those playing along at home, the pro thread is much much longer than the con thread. IMO we move ahead to NWN2 (I know I will).
Actually the pro list might be longer, but that is because the con list has been locked twice already, and started over from one post. (a moderator has put links from the current one back to the first two.)
So while the pro thread is on its first incarnation, the cons is on its third.
So your assessment of the situation is incorrect. |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 07:51 PM |
I have yet to purchase a PC game (NWN included)that didn't need patched the day it came out! And that list of rants... hmmm I don't see anywhere in this thread it mentioned that there was a pro thread and a con thread on the Bioware site. Did any of you nay sayers look at those? For those playing along at home, the pro thread is much much longer than the con thread. IMO we move ahead to NWN2 (I know I will).
What exactly is so phenomenal about this game right now? Better graphics? Sure, but as many others have said before me, eye candy does NOT make a game. If I wanted that, I would have continued playing Oblivion.
Obsidian (as per the usual) has turned the (to me) greatest game ever into something that I dislike at best. Why do they always need to fix things that weren't broken in the first place? We'll see how it turns out once the community starts fixing things, but to have to rely on third parties (and non-paid for that) to fix a game is atrocious. Once again, a game doesn't live up to all the hype that surrounded it. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 08:20 PM |
I've been sitting on the sidelines waiting for good news to filter in before buying NWN2... (mostly because I don't have the money to upgrade my computer to run the thing yet)
And so far I have heard that it looks... alright. Not even GOOD! sure there are lots of people that say it looks fabulous, but there are also LOTS of people that say it looks only passable... and thats after having sky high system requirements to even get it to run. So as far as I'm concerned, that balances out to "alright, but nothing special"
And you can now inhabit your henchmen/companions, and controll them better... though from what I've read so far, only barely... and not counting how lost they get, or the reports of them just not doing what they are supposed to, or doing things they shouldn't.
And....... thats about all the good points I have seen going for it. (by all means, if there are other things in it's favor, point them out to me)
On the other hand, I pretty much can list those 101 things wrong with it from that thread, as things that I would want the game to do... and since (obviously) it doesn't do those things, I have zero desire to spend my money on the game... let alone the money and effort to upgrade my system.
And the whole reason I bought NWN1 (the multiplayer capabilities and Persistent Worlds) sounds like it has been tacked on as an afterthought to NWN2
(again, if you know some good things it has going for it, that I have obviously missed, let me know)
oh, there is that imediately updatable area description, and better scripting functionality that PDW mentioned elsewhere... that sounds very cool. but hardly something to write home about in the face of all the other mp game breaking issues. (I mean.. simple things like having a chat box that holds more than a handful of text lines may seem silly to those only interested in SP, but are a HUGE deal to anyone who wants to play in a PW)
I'll just continue to hold my breath in the hopes that Obsidian can pull their head out of their posterior and fix these huge faults, and that the modding community can fix/rectify the missing content... and maybe in a few years it will be worth paying for.
..but I really don't have much hope that it will get much better... and even doubt that it will ever reach a state where it is as good as NWN1 in respect to online PW functionality and playability. |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 10:53 PM |
Computer AI is *hard, hard, hard*.
It'll be a long time before computers can match even the dumbest of us all. So in that respect, an AI which needs to be hand held is not surprising and not unexpected.
That'll be improved when the community decides it needs to be fixed. Look at the number of improvements made to the nwn1 ai (which was even worse to start).
but hardly something to write home about in the face of all the other mp game breaking issues. (I mean.. simple things like having a chat box that holds more than a handful of text lines may seem silly to those only interested in SP, but are a HUGE deal to anyone who wants to play in a PW)
There are already community fixes for that sort of thing. The UI in nwn2 is easily editable and there are already overrides for altering player inventory, number of exposed quick slots, and altering the location and size of the dialog box.
What I see in the nwn2 engine are
- an improved ruleset that fixes some of the more unbalancing issues in the nwn1 mechanics
- a system that is no less, and from what I can see, more alterable than nwn1 was.
- numerous cosmetic differences that will make gameplay for mp worlds more fun.
But, these are just opinions. Time will tell.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 11:01 PM |
Computer AI is *hard, hard, hard*.
It'll be a long time before computers can match even the dumbest of us all. So in that respect, an AI which needs to be hand held is not surprising and not unexpected.
That'll be improved when the community decides it needs to be fixed. Look at the number of improvements made to the nwn1 ai (which was even worse to start).
but hardly something to write home about in the face of all the other mp game breaking issues. (I mean.. simple things like having a chat box that holds more than a handful of text lines may seem silly to those only interested in SP, but are a HUGE deal to anyone who wants to play in a PW)
There are already community fixes for that sort of thing. The UI in nwn2 is easily editable and there are already overrides for altering player inventory, number of exposed quick slots, and altering the location and size of the dialog box.
What I see in the nwn2 engine are
- an improved ruleset that fixes some of the more unbalancing issues in the nwn1 mechanics
- a system that is no less, and from what I can see, more alterable than nwn1 was.
- numerous cosmetic differences that will make gameplay for mp worlds more fun.
But, these are just opinions. Time will tell.
- Paul
Pdawg,
I haven't picked up NWN 2, as my system won't support it. Also, I didn't get NWN 1 until it had been out for at least two years. Do you think NWN 2 has the potential to be altered and improved via Obsidian expansions and community generated content is at least equal to NWN 1 at publishing time?
In other words...did NWN 1 have this many issues when it was first released? |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 11:36 PM |
| NWN1 wasn't even stable until 1.32 came out! Tee hee. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 11:44 PM |
(Now that I've stopped juggling threads with 'Alt-Tab,' I can post this in the proper place.)
;;>>
Anyways, with everything I've heard and read about Neverwinter Nights II, I have one question:
Will Vives I still be up and running after Vives II kicks off?
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 11:55 PM |
I haven't picked up NWN 2, as my system won't support it. Also, I didn't get NWN 1 until it had been out for at least two years. Do you think NWN 2 has the potential to be altered and improved via Obsidian expansions and community generated content is at least equal to NWN 1 at publishing time?
In other words...did NWN 1 have this many issues when it was first released?
Potential to be altered? Certainly. Will Atari do it? That remains to be seen. Atari is more concerned about their bottom dollar and if they feel there is no financial reason to continue supporting nwn2, then it will not happen.
The support on nwn1 was and still is, quite simply, exceptional.
One difference between nwn1 and nwn2 is expectation and familiarity. Nwn1, although highly anticipated, had never been seen before. nwn2 faces 5 years of nwn1. That's a lot to be compared against.
I've just taken a read of the complaints thread, and some of those complaints are perfectly valid. (ones, like the "toolset is too complex" are just bogus). Hopefully some of those issues will be fixed, either via patch or via an expansion.
As for nwn1, the easiest thing to do is to browse the old archives from 2002. In there you wil find the same flames about performance, bad ai, QA problems, mp problems.
Give nwn2 time to mature and lets see how it goes.
In the meantime, work in Vives1 hasn't stopped! (Ok, slowed down a bit, but that won't be forever)
- Paul
Edit: and yes, as Ficcy says, it took until 1.32 for nwn1 to be really usable for PWs. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 12:10 AM |
I seem to strangley enjoy the game.
Its got its decent amount of flaws....yes..
But I've come to accept this after years of NWN 1.
I agree with the poster who said, its best to prolly just let it sit in the harddrive, and when enough appropriate patchwork comes out - as well as Vives 2, run it up again.
Beat the single player campaign, take back my comments about it before - I ended up enjoying it quite alot near the end.
Either way, your best bet is waiting till the price comes down around $30, invest the money - patch it up, and wait till Vives 2 gets its roots growing in.
:) |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 12:12 AM |
Computer AI is *hard, hard, hard*.
It'll be a long time before computers can match even the dumbest of us all. So in that respect, an AI which needs to be hand held is not surprising and not unexpected.
That'll be improved when the community decides it needs to be fixed. Look at the number of improvements made to the nwn1 ai (which was even worse to start).
but hardly something to write home about in the face of all the other mp game breaking issues. (I mean.. simple things like having a chat box that holds more than a handful of text lines may seem silly to those only interested in SP, but are a HUGE deal to anyone who wants to play in a PW)
There are already community fixes for that sort of thing. The UI in nwn2 is easily editable and there are already overrides for altering player inventory, number of exposed quick slots, and altering the location and size of the dialog box.
What I see in the nwn2 engine are
- an improved ruleset that fixes some of the more unbalancing issues in the nwn1 mechanics
- a system that is no less, and from what I can see, more alterable than nwn1 was.
- numerous cosmetic differences that will make gameplay for mp worlds more fun.
But, these are just opinions. Time will tell.
- Paul
No, you're right... time will tell. I admit that I feel the little black raincloud is hovering over me at the moment... and I hope that it is all just a result of letting the "naysayers" get to me.
I don't work on building mods like you do, so I will take your word for it that it has the potential to be better.
And admittedly, I didn't start playing NWN1 till it had been out for over a year or so...
But that still doesn't quench the bleah taste in my mouth over how they released the game in such a state.
The online game modding community is such a blessing, extending the life and replayability of many a game... but I wonder how many people thought that it would bring about a time when game developers just tossed stuff together not caring if it really worked or not, and included a toolset, and expected the people who bought their product to finnish it for them.
Well, at least I have confidence in the Vives builders, even if the game developers seem to have their heads up their........... |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 12:15 AM |
Heh ;)
Well I've almost finished it.......... Well getting close anyways...... and to be honest, imho, it pisses all over NWN1 in almost every conceiveable way ;)
The Single player storyline especially. I -hated- NWN1 and it's storylines, and lack thereof.
It's much more powerful a toolset to boot ;)
Sure, there are niggles. Apparently when it comes to multi-player (I haven't tested that aspect much yet)....... but they'll be fixed as with NWN1.
All in my opinion of course, but I'd take NWN2 over NWN1 any day of the week....... they're simply un-comparable heh.
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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