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True Seeing
Posted: 10 Aug 2005 02:32 PM |
I was busily playing a game on BattleGrounds, and was running backwards through a dark tunnel randomly stabbing with my bayonet, because I knew someone was chasing me, but I couldn't quite see the person. (I don't turn up my gamma, because I think that's kind of like cheating) I then made the mental connection to True Seeing. I started pondering true seeing, and how much it annoys me as a rogue player. I began to wonder exactly what the PnP book says, so I pulled out my old 1st Ed. PHB, and had a look.
"When the cleric employs this spell, all things within the area of the true seeing effect appear as they actually are. Secret doors become plain. The exact location of displaced things is obvious. Invisible things and those which are astral or ethereal become quite visible. Illusions and apparitions are seen through. Polymorphed, changed, or magicked things are apparent. Even the aura projected by creatures becomes visible, so that the cleric is able to know whether they are good or evil or between. The spell requires an ointment of the eyes. The ointment is made from very rare mushroom powder, saffron, and fat. The reverse of the spell, false seeingm causes the person to see things as they are not, rich being poor, rough smooth, beautiful ugly. The ointment for the reverse spell is concocted of oil, poppy dust, and pink orchid essence. For both spells, the ointment must be aged for 1-6 months."
Now, I realize both that Vives is not 1st Ed., and Neverwinter Nights is not PnP. However, it irks me greatly that as a mage, a person can simply throw out this trump card of True Seeing and there is simply no beating it (to the best of my knowledge). I simply don't see how if a person is hidden, non-magically, they should be revealed so easily. And if you have an absurdly high hide number, even TS shouldn't show you.
My idea is not to make it so TS can't see "hidden" people, but to make it act slightly differently. Make it so it's not necessairily a trump card, but will show things magically invisibile, polymorphed and all that, and add something like +20 to your spot check for as long as the spell lasts. At least this way, it's not a beat-all trump card.
These are just my thoughts and opinions on the matter, don't flame them too much ;)
Tasra |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 10 Aug 2005 03:03 PM |
Just as a counter, I don't see how someone who's hidden, non magically, can amble across an open space in broad daylight and not be seen.
Hide/MS is broken in NWN. So is TS.
The two balance each other out pretty well, actually.
-Barnas |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 10 Aug 2005 03:40 PM |
I think the "broad daylight" may be less broad than it may appear, though. After giving it some thought, I came up with three different "broad daylight" situations.
1) Walking across the streets of Port Royale
2) Walking through the Great Plains
3) Walking through the forest
In the first case, one must recall that the city is quite busy, in all actuality, and that you simply can't have the 5,000 people that are there out and about, because of engine limitations. Also, the visage can be disguised along with the garb, allowing you to just be one of the unremarkables in the crowd.
In the second, you can always hunker down into a low valley in the grass and place sods over yourself and do things to that nature, but the engine simply doesn't let you lay down.
In the last, a person could theoretically climb trees, hide in bushes, go under the dead leaves, and hide behind small mounds of dirt.
Just some thoughts to push my point ;) |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 11 Aug 2005 01:22 AM |
Regardless, the engine handles both TS and HIS badly.
"fixing" one without being able to fix the the other would do nothing except make rogues more powerful than they already are.
Given that there are no permanent TS magic items in the game, and that it is a 6th level spell for most casters, and that HIS is available on demand just about always to a rogue (to say nothing about shadowdancers!), I'd say that under the circumstances, things are fine as they are.
Don't want to get seen by TS? Stand behind something. Even TS cannot see through buildings.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 11 Aug 2005 06:36 AM |
Just to add my million-dollar worth of opinion, I agree that TS and Hide/MS are horribly bugged in NWN. It cant be helped. A computer game will always have limitations to what you can do and much sense does it make.
I think that point was already explained perfectly. TS allows to see everything as long as its in the line of sight of the character, even if its "supposed" to be hidden behind something or somesuch. The Stealth skills, to balance out, allow a character to hide wherever it wants regardless of the presene of suitable spots to hide in.
Thats how it works, and there are more important things to spend time on fixing and improving than that. Best thing is to come with some miserably satisfying explanation to how the two work, and let it stay as it is. Sure, two wrongs dont make a right, but three rights make a left.
What bothers me with TS is the question of how far can you go with it.
Does TS allows you to see things through objects, like a tree or a wall or an entire building?
Does TS allows you to see through none-magical disguises, which are technically just objects?
Does TS allows you to see a face behind a helmet or a mask, which are objects as well?
And I can ask a lot of more questions about the possibilities of TS. I've seen TS used in various occasions besides detecting hidden folk, and I'd just like to know how far is it supposed to go beyond the simple game mechanics? Can I see someone lurking for me from behind a wall? If not, why would it make sense to see who is hidden behind a disguise? Can I see who is the real figure behind a polymorph spell? Etc.
Those are the things that really bother me about TS, the stuff beyond the mechanics, because those are logically bugged and arent worth the time to be corrected. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 11 Aug 2005 06:53 AM |
Does TS allows you to see things through objects, like a tree or a wall or an entire building?
Does TS allows you to see through none-magical disguises, which are technically just objects?
Does TS allows you to see a face behind a helmet or a mask, which are objects as well?
In order...
No.
No.
No.
TS does not grant X-ray vision, simply.
-Barnas |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 11 Aug 2005 08:40 AM |
Can I see who is the real figure behind a polymorph spell?
yes. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 11 Aug 2005 02:20 PM |
Hmmm...
What could I say on this topic...
First of all, the disclaimer: computer games suck. *smirks*
Until that day that they can make artificial intelligence as “intelligent” as a human, there will always be a way to exploit the game. So they have to put in things like TS being able to see you no matter what.
-I can see it from the angle that TS seems to be a trump all.
-I can see it from the angle that rogues could get away with pretty much anything if there wasn’t something that could spot them with no effort.
-It seems just slightly silly to me that there are no items with permanent TS for players, yet there are monsters with permanent TS.
But there again, the AI is rather stupid, and monsters would never know the right time to cast TS on themselves... like if something suspicious were to happen near them. (unless a DM was controlling it of course)
-As someone playing a Rogue/SD I HATE monsters with TS... puts quite a damper on where I can go... well, alone anyway. And those times when I DO go with someone else, I usually feel all but useless when these TS guys are around.
But then, I have played a bit as other classes, and I can hack my way through a bunch of bad guys on my own, just to get to a locked and trapped chest... and I might as well prop my feet up on it and relax a while, cause I sure aint getting it open any time soon.
So yeah.
TS = doesn’t work the way it should... and quite irritating to rogues.
HIPS = doesn’t work the way it should... and quite irritating to... everyone else.
So I guess there is nothing more for me to complain about on this topic.
...Now, how about those ******* fighters who take a few rogue levels so they can pretty much go anywhere and do anything... making us rogues less valuable... lets complain about them for a while shall we?
;) |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 04 Sep 2005 11:20 AM |
Just to add my 0.02 Euro's,
Spot allows you to pierce a hiding char's hide, no matter what kind of bushes etc. there are around, though logically, if someone is hiding in a bush, it should be harder to see them than if they are hiding in say, high grass, or behind a thin tree, or a smaller bush, etc.
So the fact that a hiding person can't use terrain to his advantage is cancelled out by the fact that he doesn't need to.
What True Seeing does is simply negate any chance they have to stay hidden. Even behind a wall, around a corner, etc. if you're withing a screen of the TS person, he can see you, no matter what. ( unless there are closed doors etc. ). Which I personally find very very broken and annoying.
You want to be able to see someone hiding? invest skillpoints in spot/listen. As an added bonus, if someone is hiding close to you, and moving, and/or you are standing still, these things all give bonusses to that spot roll to see them. Making it even harder for them to stay hidden.
That spot/hide check is made roughly every 6 seconds.
The best thing I've seen for this problem was to change TS that it doesn't give TS as is, but instead gives see invisible, and a bonus to spot, usually based on level. This gives you a fair chance of spotting someone. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 04 Sep 2005 01:36 PM |
The logic behind True Seeing nullifying Stealth is because in DND settings, TS gives other creatures an aura around them, which makes it nigh impossible to hide like that. At least this is how I view it, could be something else and I'm completely wrong.
In Vives, the creatures being observed by a True Seeing character do not get the good/evil aura around them.
True Seeing is broken, yes. However, so are the Stealth skills. When entering Stealth Mode, your character can be hidden even in an empty desert with nothing but a flat terrain of sand to be seen. Objects like stones/bushes/trees/corners do not affect your Hide/MS skills, and neither does the lack of them.
The two of these abilities are logically-broken - stealthy people can stealth wherever they want and TS-casters can detect them whenever they want. It's not perfect, and two wrongs dont make a right (but three rights make a left), but it's good enough. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 04 Sep 2005 04:45 PM |
| Though DnD and NWN are 2 different things, 3rd edition dnd doesn't give any aura's.. instead, TS in PnP nullifies all forms of MAGICAL concealment. Hiding in a shadow without the help of a magic whatchamacallit works. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 04 Sep 2005 05:35 PM |
What True Seeing does is simply negate any chance they have to stay hidden. Even behind a wall, around a corner, etc. if you're withing a screen of the TS person, he can see you, no matter what. ( unless there are closed doors etc. ). Which I personally find very very broken and annoying.
Thats where roleplaying comes in my friend . Never assume your pc can -see- someone behind a building, TS or not, whether they are hidden or not.
Now if someone isnt attempting to be stealthy you may hear them /in some cases smell them. |
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