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Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 08 Jun 2005 11:20 PM |
I've put a lot of thought into this subject of death and dying and DMs causing death and destruction. I've come up with, what I think, is a decent "image" of each group's overall opinions on DM mayhem.
Disclaimer - This is just my opinion. I am not stating fact, I am not speaking for anyone else. I am open to arguments, but anything along the lines of "You're a complete idiot" is not constructive. Take it elsewhere. Once again, this is what I think and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone else.
That aside, I do think that it is the DMs' job and interest in making us die. Probably in terrible, miserable, horrible, grueling ways. That's just their job. The DMs are there to guide the story, but it's no fun if there isn't the chance for disgusting, terrible agony and wanton slaughter. The DMs make us die - that's all there is to it. They're good at their job and they enjoy it.
Players, on the other hand, tend not to like this idea. They don't want to die. Ever. For any reason. A character might be disappointed, but in the mind of most players, it's not "their fault." Lag killed them. DMs killed them. Blah blah blah. What they do want from the DMs is gifts. Bountiful hordes of treasure, countless experience, limitless power, unfathomable wealth, ancient and arcane artifacts, and undying glory. But not if they have to die. The basic mindset behind "The Player" is "I want to be unparalleled in power, wealth, and influence, and I want the DMs to help me, but if they get me killed, so help me I'll get them!"
This of course, in my opinion, creates a strange contradiction.
DMs want players to die, and players don't want DMs to kill them.
Now, the real question here, is, "Why?" Why don't players want to die? Death can be a very interesting and helpful motivator, it can add to flavour and add risk to things. We love to cheer and thank everyone when we succeed, but if we "take one for the team" we're packing our things and leaving.
In my opinion, the main problem is that death is too costly. Take myself for example. If I die, even if I get ressurected right away, I lose 500 experience. It takes me about a week to get 500 experience. So if I'm dead for 30 seconds, I've just wasted a week. And that sucks.
Not to mention there are some mechanics that make playing more than difficult. Those stupid trolls, for instance, will hunt down and kill a level 40 character if he's not packing a little heat. I think the "kill only by fire" thing is taken a bit too far. Trolls are by no means immortal. I have an ancient guide portraying the inherent weaknesses of monsters, a sort of "Monster Manual" if you will, and it says that lost limbs take up to 3d6 minutes to regrow on a troll. 180 seconds to 18 minutes. Not ONE ROUND. Not to mention that us "Spellcaster" types are screwed since that flame weapon spell has never and will never work. Good luck making it over the Gladden Hills.
What I propose, at least in my opinion, are two things. First, make the death penalty apply only in respawning. If you're having trouble with lag from people that just sit and idle in the same spot, put a timer on it or something. Like you're only allowed to be dead for like four hours before you're forced to respawn. Second, just make trolls killable. Make them tougher or something, but this immortality thing was a really bad idea for a mechanic.
That's just my opinion. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 08 Jun 2005 11:46 PM |
Well all in all I agree with what you're saying, pretty interesting idea, the only thing I would say, (and this might be easier for them to program) is you still get docked xp for being ressed, but the penalty starts at 0 for say the first 15 minutes or so, so if the Cleric in your party can see his or her way clear to maybe say the prayer quickly, (tho still respectfully ), you'd be alright. Doing it this way would still put the sticker to folks like me who insist on soloing sometimes, and that's ok, it's part of the rushOtherwise IMHO good idea.. but I still think ..."you're a complete idiot " ;)
P.S. Yeah! the flame weapon thing annoys me too, why won't that work?
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 12:57 AM |
As much as I loathe every death my characters get(usually when I'm running around solo, which is often enough.. but usually because I'm greedy in that exp way. *wry grin* serves me right) I don't think the death penalty system should be changed, it works the way it is. I mean, you might make 500 xp a week, but you also only play for about an hour a week. My Archmage would get without much of a fetch twice that in an hour, not that I want to brag or anything...
Dying in a group, or to DMs is fun! Waaay more fun than dying alone.
But next to note is I, personally, have never found trolls more than a nuisance *exaduration*. If you get a good fire elemental following you it's like taking a ... fiery sword to butter. Fire, acid, they both work wonders against them trolls.
*tosses his two cents into the jar* |
CHOO CHOO!
- - - - - -
Bereil Yadashem.
Markus Mortriety, Herald of Novus Aristi. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 01:41 AM |
DMs want players to die
99.9% of the time DMs don't want players to die, far from it in fact and I cannot stress that enough. They want players to live, but sometimes experience the excitement of surviving by the closest of margins. Unfortunately with the limitations of the mechanics / lag etc they can sometimes get it wrong. |
ratemypoo.com |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 02:57 AM |
Ok, this following paragraph is an extract from a post on the DM forums, regarding this and other issues. A post I put up on the 2nd June, before this whole conversation came up on the player forums:
1) Why do you go IG as a DM? I would argue that if it is to tell a story, bring the world to life, and generally add to players enjoyment, then it is for the right reason. If more often than not it is to go and spawn monsters in that are very likely to kill PCs, without them having done anything particularly wrong, then something aint right.
As such, would like to ask DMs to think a little before they log in as a DM. To think, why am I about to log in as a DM? What am I going to do to enhance the world? Our "job" as DMs is surely to tell stories, and enjoy ourselves whilst at the same time making sure players enjoy themselves. Admittedly sometimes we have to "police" and "scare PCs" that are raiding temples or the like, or going to especially dangerous places. But if that becomes what we spend most of our time doing, then we are not DMing, we are ruining our own enjoyment and that of the players.
Now this post I wrote because I was worried about some of the complaints we had received. And pretty much every DM active here has responded in that thread. And without exception they all say that they absolutely, utterly agree with the above attitude. And that they would all rather be watching good RP without even being known to be there, or running their own stories, of whatever scale.
I was genuinely worried about some of what I was hearing. And was hugely relieved at the feedback from the DMs. And that it turned out the "issues" that were being raised happened at a time no DM was involved.
We have had a couple of small incidents where this was not the case. And they were immediately resolved, and the player(s) were given back lost xp, and an apology. But that is a true rarity, and by no means indicative of standard DM / player interaction.
So like Lytt says, no, DMs do not exist to kill PCs. We exist to start stories that the PCs take on and make come to life. The opening of Netharu, the shard of Elbereth, the Midoran plot, the tales of Maldovia, etc, etc. Also, equally as important, all the little one on one, or small plot tales that are run. That is what DMs love being involved in. And that is our "job" here.
...and then we get to kill you. Which is also fun! :0) But that -is- secondary to our main goal here.
As for Rob's specific points. Tend to agree with Bolgryn on the raise dead issue. Death penalties are actually a lot less now than they used to be, if you do not die on a regular basis. But death, and the reason for the change to the system, were discussed at huge length. And I personally do not see a need to change them. Death should matter, it should have a consequence. 500 xp is not a huge amount considering the level Balthor is. It is a sting, yes, but dying should be.
The trolls. They take some preparation. And are definitely not a perfect implementation. And if they can be fixed, especially so that flame weapon works, would be great. But considering the amount pdw has on, and the fact that there is not a single character class that cannot manage them with the right preparations...maybe not a top priority.
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 04:31 AM |
DMs want players to die
It has been said by both Sirac and Lytton, but I will repeat it.
That is NOT what we want. Forget the we for a moment, that is not what *I* want.
If *I* wanted to kill players for sport, it wouldnt be much fun at all. Given the power a DM has, without even considering the DM kill button, it is *trivial* to arrange.
Where is the sport in that?
What *I* want, if I am not running a story, but decide to throw in a few extra critters and a few unexpected curves, is to push the players as hard as I can, to make them think they are going to die. Usually, I get it right. Sometimes I don't, and I do what I can to fix my mistake.
Sometimes I will present a challenge that cannot be met head on with unthinking combat. Maybe they will need to use a particular spell, or a particular weapon, or to have them do something that they dont normally consider, you know..like talking for instance. I will make sure that the challenge can be escaped from.
I see our job as trying to keep the players alive, but players can and do surprise me. Sometimes their bold approaches (like running across the epic traps, instead of walking around them) shortens their life considerably. It is hard to account for these seemingly self destructive actions that occur. I then have to think of a way to "rescue" things so it does not appear to cheesy. That's harder than keeping the players alive and interested.
Regarding the Death Penalty
No. I do not believe a change there is needed. Death should not be something taken lightly. Rez's should not be cost free. Previous to this, the behavior I had witnessed IG was shocking to me, but now I see that the current behaviour is much much better.
Deaths do happen, especially in mixed level groups. What I do, (and other DMs do from what I have seen) is keep track of the deaths that occur and try to make sure that the adventure, if it was played well, does not result in a net loss of xp for those involved. The higher the quality of effort and RP involved, the more generous the rewards.
Keep in mind what the 3e rules on death and ressurection are - automatic level loss. Our current system has a sting, but it doesn't sting that much.
Trolls
Yes, they can be fixed. There are many spells that need to be taken care of in order to ensure that the trolls can be properly killed through the various magical ways.
The code has its problems, but I like the burning trolls concept better than trolls that can be killed in any old way. It has not been a showstopper unlike some of the other things that need to be taken care of, and so it waits.
Someday, I might win a lottery and be able to do this full time. Ah, wouldn't that be nice. Until that happens, I have to pick and choose among the number of things that need to be done.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 06:32 AM |
Players, on the other hand, tend not to like this idea. They don't want to die. Ever. For any reason. A character might be disappointed, but in the mind of most players, it's not "their fault." Lag killed them. DMs killed them. Blah blah blah. What they do want from the DMs is gifts. Bountiful hordes of treasure, countless experience, limitless power, unfathomable wealth, ancient and arcane artifacts, and undying glory. But not if they have to die. The basic mindset behind "The Player" is "I want to be unparalleled in power, wealth, and influence, and I want the DMs to help me, but if they get me killed, so help me I'll get them!"
To put my twopeneth in for the main point, I don't think the DM's go out of their way at all to kill players. I think that mostly the spawning of monsters is a cool thing (when its not done insanely) and adds very much to gameplay. I have much prefered the vampire banging the gong in Moldavia and waking up his mates and a big full on ruck happening - followed by or held up by, a bit of a chat or whatever. I wrote a post ages ago saying how much I liked most of the DM interaction I've had. In the main I would say the DM team get it right, and I agree with PDWs viewpoint.
As an aside, quoting from the original post, I do have a slight point about that.
Not a winge or anything, but just an opinion.
I've done some DM events now, and had some DM interaction, and whilst it's increased my enjoyment of the actual scenario - it's only ever been rewarding XP wise.
Probably just me or the things I've chosen to be involved in, but I haven't witnessed much or any in the way of "Ahhhh - thankyou for completing this quest young sir/madame/orc/etc. here is a small token of our esteem".
I followed some goodly bloke to a volcano once to wipe out the evil in the name of good, yadda yadda yadda, and he wandered off afterwards with a cheery 'thanks for that then *puts huge glowing sword back into own sheath*, if you ever need any help then give me a call....' (I REALLY enjoyed that event - and am in NO WAY knocking it - its just an example). Got RP xp, but never even looted the dang temple - the forces against us didn't let us take our eyes off the ball for a minute.
The elven saga of ferein I haven't been involved in much of, but it's cost me a load in equipment to stay alive on and I've never looted anything on it - and then the nice little 'ooooo - rangers and druids would LOVE this item' got handed back as soon as we got it (Again - I have REALLY enjoyed that event and had a load of fun doing those that I have).
Like I say - just my view on things. It's just that it might be nice to have something other than the usual 99 bullets in a barrel and a +1 light flail in the impossible-to-get-to-chest-behind-the-elite-balor when on a huge long DM run quest.
Especially given that loot-running is frowned upon and the rarest to see places are most often seen on actual DM events.
So - not meant to be a winge, just a comment? Maybe its only me - maybe I'm not looting enough when I'm off saving the world. |
Jack Sprat - Dashing half-elven 'pirate' rogue
Rasputin Kalarmander - Old human cleric of Elbereth
Coral Shadeleaper - Timid elven wizard
Fenris Wolf - Barbarian elf ranger
Leaf Barksson - Elven druid
Xyfar-noo - Dwarven traveling cleric |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 06:37 AM |
Actually, that is a good point.
We don't often hand out items as rewards. Not sure why that is.
Sometimes we "seed" treasure drops with items to be found, and sometimes we hand out items afterwards, but not enough.
One thing that is being worked on is the creation of more "vives" specific magic items to add a bit of variety into the game.
Perhaps some of those will show up later.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 06:46 AM |
As an aside, quoting from the original post, I do have a slight point about that.
Not a winge or anything, but just an opinion.
I've done some DM events now, and had some DM interaction, and whilst it's increased my enjoyment of the actual scenario - it's only ever been rewarding XP wise.
Probably just me or the things I've chosen to be involved in, but I haven't witnessed much or any in the way of "Ahhhh - thankyou for completing this quest young sir/madame/orc/etc. here is a small token of our esteem".
Not strictly true, at least in the case of the Ferein plot, several characters HAVE and will be thanked and rewarded as a result of providing their aid. I can think of at least four or five, maybe more. It may be that in Ras's case, (if that's who you are referring to) and this isn't a criticism at all, he hasn't returned to Ferein with the others except on one occasion after the Inner City was destroyed, when as I recall he made a few accusations about the head of the druid order. I have, and will reward characters with items, might be that in the case of your character it's bad luck that you've had to log off early or whatever.
Though - in Rasputin's case - I do recall seeing an incident where he was thanked personally by a prominent member of the Council for what he had done, even though you may not remember it. |
ELVES! |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 06:57 AM |
You were unlucky to miss one of the Ferein events then. In the Port Royale catacombs a few chests were prepared with items that (as far as I´ve seen) were of use to the characters playing that time. Jimmy got a pretty nice bow in Ferein...
So, it is taken care of in that storyline. I agree though, it´d be nice to see it in other big events, too. It adds some story to the items you might get. And alot more satisfying for let´s say a paladin to get a holy sword from his mentor/whoever than the 81th centaur he smashed into pieces.
((too late...*slaps Ranger*))
Regarding thanking the players...personally I had the feeling there was too much of it already, but that´s just me. Do we superior elves have to fall on our knees to thank you freaks? :p |
Portraits: zip.rar
PRAISE HECK, FOR HIS NAME IS HECK, AND JUST HECK! |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 06:57 AM |
Probably just me or the things I've chosen to be involved in, but I haven't witnessed much or any in the way of "Ahhhh - thankyou for completing this quest young sir/madame/orc/etc. here is a small token of our esteem".
Yep, fair point.
I followed some goodly bloke to a volcano once to wipe out the evil in the name of good, yadda yadda yadda, and he wandered off afterwards with a cheery 'thanks for that then *puts huge glowing sword back into own sheath*, if you ever need any help then give me a call....' (I REALLY enjoyed that event - and am in NO WAY knocking it - its just an example).
You know, when things like this do happen, there is quite often a sub text. There may well be an -actual- reason for this. And worth investigating as a player. I know you havent been able to be IG of late, so definitely not a criticism in return either.
But sometimes players do tend to view quests as isolated one-offs, and dont act with enough caution, thought or curiosity. And above all initiative, DMs really welcome PMs from players that want to interact with the world, follow up things from what has happened to them.
We have so much background that goes undiscovered. Sometimes intentional, or at least not unexpected. But the DM / player relationship should definitely be two ways. The biggest plot Sol and I ever ran in Vives was the opening of Netharu. And I can honestly say at least half of what occurred was purely down to player initiative. We were blown away at times with the twists and turns events took as we reacted to ideas and actions from players.
Take the shard quest that is running now. I know for a fact the event planned for this Sunday has the potential to be really special. The Ranger has put a lot of effort and time into this whole story, and the events themselves have been fantastic, and this Sunday could be amazing. Really, really special. And has a lot of support from within the DM team. But it is utterly dependent on player action, and initiative. And so far I have had one PM from a PC looking to go see Malakai. And there has been one PM from another PC to Alianda. That's it. The opportunity has been there for a huge amount of storyline to be followed, and players to get involved in. But sometimes it seems people just expect to turn up to the event and that's it.
The best stories dont work like that. The DM provides the framework, but the players fill in the rest.
We love as DMs sitting back and watching the players do the work. And it makes the world come alive like nothing else does. Like with the auction, and some of the interaction around that. Some players are fantastic at this, and have been throughout the shard story. So this is just a gentle nudge for people to be aware, this is how to get the best from Vives, dont just -react- to DMs but -act- yourself, follow your goals and plot and scheme to achieve what you desire. And then we as DMs can react to you, and everyone benefits. If you are talking about the storylines you care about, and planning what to do next IG, when there isnt even a DM around, then the RP involvement becomes so much more intense.
dang, I talk a lot once I get started! Sorry folks, but hope you get what I am saying...
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 07:43 AM |
You guys have all left some really interesting feedback and even managed to get sidetracked. I'm down with that.
On the original topic - I think I understand your point, and in my defense, I will say that even in a "good week" of play I don't exactly rake in the experience. And Boglryn, if you're doing something I'm not, let me kno- *cough* I mean, don't do that, since that's sorta like cheating. Anyway. The problem that I foresee is that putting us the player in a position where we might die, and then us dying is really the source of I think a lot of player/DM static, and this I think is a result of the penalty of death. Sure, in 3E D&D we'd be losing a level for dying, but 3E D&D also happens to mention that a level 20 character killing a level 20 monster nets 6,000 experience and that trolls are killable if you hack at them hard enough. If we could get to level 20 after killing 250-something monsters (I think they say it takes a balanced group 13 even-level monsters to gain a level), then the death penalty would be LESS. At the moment, it takes me anywhere from 200 to 500 kills to make that 500 experience I lose in 30 seconds of bad luck.
On the topic of Quest rewards - I don't know how much I agree with just thrusting new toys into everyone's hands, but I do certainly agree that experience does not have to be the only result. Items, experience, coin, influence... I know that I personally would KILL for an opportunity into the Tel'Elena Mage Tower (and if you say I've never done anything about it, I've written letters, asked all the high-level mages I could find... it was a topic of paramount importance for me for a while. Never heard a peep out of Ferein). I'd like very much to see the DMs mix it up some more in the way of Quest rewards. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 08:51 AM |
Influence...good point.
Anyway, the xp argument..1000xp in an hour is not much of a problem. Of course at lvl20+ you have killed most of what´s running around on vives probably, so you won´t get much more than 5xp per monster. But it is rather boring, since all you can do is kill a load of monsters, spell up, kill monsters again, etc.
If you want to raise your chances to stay alive, find a group, or at least someone else to go with you. Makes the whole trip funnier, too, and gives you the chance to see places you wouldn´t visit on your own. Nethar'u for example, and if a DM is on you might encounter a little surprise...
If you really want to make xp at such high levels, uh, roleplay your a** off. Or if you have the time try to make it to an event. Certainly more enjoyable than the "If it moves, kill it" option.
Most important to make xp: Don´t die. ;)
Not much news to you I guess, but that´s how it is.
I wouldn´t change the death penalty system though. Death is meant to have an effect, people have become more careful and you see many more adventuring groups now. And I prefer to join a group to explore an area than having to rescue another character each day. |
Portraits: zip.rar
PRAISE HECK, FOR HIS NAME IS HECK, AND JUST HECK! |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:30 AM |
On the original topic - I think I understand your point, and in my defense, I will say that even in a "good week" of play I don't exactly rake in the experience. And Boglryn, if you're doing something I'm not, let me kno- *cough* I mean, don't do that, since that's sorta like cheating. Anyway. The problem that I foresee is that putting us the player in a position where we might die, and then us dying is really the source of I think a lot of player/DM static, and this I think is a result of the penalty of death. Sure, in 3E D&D we'd be losing a level for dying, but 3E D&D also happens to mention that a level 20 character killing a level 20 monster nets 6,000 experience and that trolls are killable if you hack at them hard enough. If we could get to level 20 after killing 250-something monsters (I think they say it takes a balanced group 13 even-level monsters to gain a level), then the death penalty would be LESS. At the moment, it takes me anywhere from 200 to 500 kills to make that 500 experience I lose in 30 seconds of bad luck.
I do agree that the higher up the levels you go, the suckier the xp gets. You really have to go into worse and worse places just to kill grossly hard things that net you even a reasonable amount of xp. Probably down to my highest character being a priest and them getting sucky xp from doing just about anything, but at the higher levels you do tend to get F.A. experience from either spellcasting or killing.
I still don't think the DMs add too hugely to the death ratio without mostly also being fair with the returning to life ratio.
For example, the last time I got RP 'forced' into fighting a litch completely un-buffed and died as a result (my choice to attack - but my RP led me to act how I did); I was then brought back to life in a very RP way which then left me in-game indebted to someone. And didn't cost me the 4k xp that a respawn would have, rather it cost me a managable 450ish xp. And gave rise to a good little RP opportunity for the future.
So I don't think the DM attitude is a 'death or glory' one at all.
On the topic of Quest rewards - I don't know how much I agree with just thrusting new toys into everyone's hands, but I do certainly agree that experience does not have to be the only result. Items, experience, coin, influence... I know that I personally would KILL for an opportunity into the Tel'Elena Mage Tower. I'd like very much to see the DMs mix it up some more in the way of Quest rewards.
Yeah - that's the kinda thing I'm saying. Not so much 'I haven't had anything as Rasp and I think I should' or anything. Just that I haven't seen anything other than the end of DM quests being the person running it walking off into the sunset after thanking you (or whatever) and then the RP bonus reward. Not saying everytime should be a 'now here's a sweet for you, and one for you, and you' or stuff like that; but I've never done any quests where a bloke has turned up looking to hire mercenaries and offered to pay 5k a head or whatever.
And I'm always too busy fighting for my life to loot chests in the depth of Beholdertown usa. |
Jack Sprat - Dashing half-elven 'pirate' rogue
Rasputin Kalarmander - Old human cleric of Elbereth
Coral Shadeleaper - Timid elven wizard
Fenris Wolf - Barbarian elf ranger
Leaf Barksson - Elven druid
Xyfar-noo - Dwarven traveling cleric |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:34 AM |
*nods* I agree with quite a bit of what you are saying. But just to re-emphasise what someone else touched on, at higher levels one of the best ways of actually getting xp is rp'ing a lot. The RP awards for high lvl characters can be one of the best sources for xp. Which is the way it should be for a RP oriented server. Sure there are no guarantees, other than that if you rp regularly week in, week out you -will- get rewards over time.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:34 AM |
| As far as the troll situation goes, maybe until we can fix it so flame weapon and darkfire kills them they can go back to being the normal, dies like they're supposed to type? |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:44 AM |
The problem that I foresee is that putting us the player in a position where we might die, and then us dying is really the source of I think a lot of player/DM static, and this I think is a result of the penalty of death
I am not following.
A 20th level mage is pretty uber in that if they don't take risks, choose their spells wisely, they can survive and/or escape pretty much any encounter, even DM events.
My 15th level mage has died a total of 3 times outside of dm events, and 2 times during dm events. Should I resent the DM's because I died during a dm event? I don't think so. All my mages deaths were due to my actions, doing something that was clearly risky.
With a high level mage, I do not believe there is bad luck, only bad planning.
Also, Mages get a stinkload of XP from spellcasting. Your 200 to 500 kills number does not take that into account.
RP also makes up a good chunk of XP, if the DM's catch you RP'ing. Mindlessly wandering around stomping monsters alone doesn't usually make for good RP and hence the DMs would tend to look such a character over.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 09:45 AM |
Perhaps you could help clear things up and tell me about some of your recent deaths and how they happened?
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 10:27 AM |
<random thoughts and comments>
With a high level mage, I do not believe there is bad luck, only bad planning.
Or your sequencer robes not working properly when they should have *winces remembering*
As far as dark fire/flame weapon goes and making it work on trolls, I believe a lot of work has been done already to make it work that hasn't worked. So it isn't going to be an easy thing to sort out, that's why it's now a lowish priority.
Death & resurrection points .....
Regarding resurrection costs, I agree that resurrecting should cost something straight away after death. It reflects your essence degrading. Death should be important and mean something.
Sometimes the DMs joke about killing players, especially at large events, but we really -are- joking. It is very hard to judge what is an exact/good match for every character's abilities. Hence why we will generally provide rescue opportunities if the odds have been stacked against the players.
Personally I also prefer that the players have faced a good challenge, had a good scare, but managed to battle it though without dying. But I am personally not that good at the mechanics of the game, so I'll pretty much always give a chance at a rescue if I kill people. Other DMs who know the mechanics and balance of the game much better than me are more able to judge whether a monster(s) was a fair challenge and therefore may not provide a rescue, but expect the players to respawn.
Last point here, maybe the DMs should joke less about killing players because it seems to have mistakenly given out the wrong idea about us? Perhaps as the saying goes "never a truer word spoken in jest" we have been taken too seriously.
As far as loot and items go ....
I have very often added nice items into the game to be found as part of events I have run (Sirac usually tells me off for being too generous too). But what I have generally seen is that either the items are not found, or one player takes the lot and doesn't share (fair enough if they are evil/CN etc. but I have actually docked a LG paladin xp for finding a very valuable useful item that I planted and he didn;t say anything to his party!). Sometimes the loot has been shared which is good to see.
I am also (I like to think!) very generous as Ilyana, and have given out quite a few nice items (including rare custom made ones) as rewards for ongoing RP and story. So it seems that it depends which DM is involved, though hopefully now it's been raised other DMs will think of it too.
</random thoughts and comments> |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 10:34 AM |
Most DM's will want to pose something challenging for players in terms of adventure or an encounter. What they (and I certainly do) hope is that players will have to think their way through the impending battle and use tactics and some planning in order to overcome the odds.........
Quite a lot of the time however, these "tactics" are more likely to involve everyone charging in and the spellchuckers launching everything they have at the "poor" critter This often leads to death of some (if not all) of the party members.
It's hard in the NWN engine, that I knowBut maybe folks should consider using tactics a little more? Rogues sneaking ahead to scout....... then getting in position etc. It's great for roleplay as it builds tension and fun to observe as a DM! One of the reasons that people do this might be that they kinda know deep-down that it's likely that the DM will come up with some way for the party to be resurrected or create something to aid those party members left alive in order to bring their buddies back to life.
So it's a little difficult sometimes for DM's to create that feeling of real tension of an impending battle and the like if people have the aforementioned mindset. Just some rambling thoughts ;)
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 02:29 PM |
Speaking for myself, I prefer players alive and screaming with terror (and enjoying themselves... admit it, Malakhi) than dead and frustrated. Scaring people is more effectively achieved with flavour text, sound and music than spawning impossible creatures. It is entirely possible to scare a mid level character using nothing but a lowly shadow mastiff, if the right atmosphere is created first.
As for players dying on my watch, most of the time they've done that themselves, but on the instances where it's happened because I've misjudged the difficulty of a combat situation, or for whatever other reason there may be, I've scrambled to RP a solution. As a DM and a player it's been my experience that DMs will, in most cases, provide players the opportunity to be rescued and recompensate them for lost XP. DMs have always been quick to do so for me, so in turn, I try to do the same for players now that I am one. I don't know if I always achieve that, but it is what I aim to do. I'm hoping that I'm approachable enough to players for them to be able to tell me, either publicly or privately, whether or not I am successful.
And Boglryn, if you're doing something I'm not, let me kno- *cough* I mean, don't do that, since that's sorta like cheating.
*Grins* I can answer that one. He has been busy RPing and getting clubbed senseless with the XP stick as a result. |
The subculture of my dreams
Is waiting for me to fall asleep.
I know you're scared—you should be.
I know you're scared. |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 09 Jun 2005 05:08 PM |
Heh, Malakhi does not know what you are talking about. But SI is correct. The threat of impending danger (done through atmosphere, flavor text, and especially music and environmental effects) creates a much more immersive, and thus enjoyable situation than does serving the threat to the player on a silver platter, so to speak. That being said- I think that we should all be mature enough to agree that Vives is a -dangerous- place to begin with. If you dont want to run the risk of (brutal, impaled, utterly viscious, entrail-spilling, brain-eating (Paul), or otherwise horrible) death, stay at home, nancy boy (or girl).
Just my humble opinion,
Sheikh |
Malakhi Aquistine
Erick Whitestone |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 10 Jun 2005 07:19 AM |
It's hard in the NWN engine, that I knowBut maybe folks should consider using tactics a little more? Rogues sneaking ahead to scout....... then getting in position etc. It's great for roleplay as it builds tension and fun to observe as a DM!
Just an idea....which not only do I think would help achieve this but would also be a good RP event in itself....
Could there be any DM run RP event in which players are taught how to do this.
The reason I say that is as Ara points out its quite hard to do in NWN, especially if Lag is involved.
In PnP this is so much easier to do as communication is much better. I have seen it done in NWN but its not easy.
An RP event in which DMs play NPC willing to train adventurers in combat tactics would not only be enjoyable but would help those who love this style of play learn how to do it in a NWN frame.
From personal experience I am always about tactics in PnP but I decend when it comes to NWN and that is a real shame. Then you just get stuck in that kind of framework. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 10 Jun 2005 08:05 AM |
Make no mistake.
I have seen players use tactics...
..Like having one player scout out an ambush only to have one of the rear rank fighters charge past him and right into the thick of things.
You just cannot teach skills like that! |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Death and Dying and DMs doing it.
Posted: 10 Jun 2005 08:33 AM |
Just an idea....which not only do I think would help achieve this but would also be a good RP event in itself....
Could there be any DM run RP event in which players are taught how to do this.
The reason I say that is as Ara points out its quite hard to do in NWN, especially if Lag is involved.
In PnP this is so much easier to do as communication is much better. I have seen it done in NWN but its not easy.
An RP event in which DMs play NPC willing to train adventurers in combat tactics would not only be enjoyable but would help those who love this style of play learn how to do it in a NWN frame.
From personal experience I am always about tactics in PnP but I decend when it comes to NWN and that is a real shame. Then you just get stuck in that kind of framework.
It's a good point, and one which I for one will bear in mind. I would just say this though as something for players to bear in mind - and something which has been mentioned elsewhere just recently.
To an extent every event I run, or is run by other DMs, takes the form you're asking for - albeit without the addition of an NPC to 'nanny' the players through what is happening. I've run, and admittedly taken part in as a player - I'm as guilty as any, events which are enormously perilous from the outset, and have been made more so by a lack of discussion before the players set out. I would argue that to an extent every DM event should be looked on as a learning experience, it's the best time for players to learn to interact with each other, discuss tactics, find out each others' strengths and weaknesses, decide best how to deploy the available characters based on that.
I don't as a DM, even during an event, log with the intention of killing a specific player, group of players, or party. What I have done, and will continue to do, is put players in a situation where they have to think about what they are doing. Even if it is just to the extent of 'this is bloody dangerous, I'm out of here'. My events are probably getting a bit of a reputation for deaths, both among players and the DM Team *grins*. They certainly don't start out, or are planned, with the intention of that happening.
To explain what I mean I will give two examples.
The first was an event which involved an expedition to the beholder tunnels in Undreath, which by subsequent count resulted in something like almost 40 deaths among the party. I as a DM spent most of that event spawning monsters etc in advance of where I had originally planned for the party to go and - at the same time - was leading one or two of the characters through tells describing their feelings that were giving hints on the direction to take. The players concerned were taking that on board and conveying it to the party - who then went and did their own thing and screamed off in a different direction, into greater peril. This happened several times, with on occasion the party being split and heading off in two or even three different directions with foreseeable consequences. So... listen to what other members of the party are saying, slow down, give people time to type.
The second, again as part of the Ferein storyline, involved another trip to Undreath - this time to Minyaren itself, the heart of the Atalan realm. The party - though smaller - planned beforehand, they disposed themselves according to their strengths and weaknesses, they slowed down, they listened. And, as a result, completed their objective and returned from one of the most dangerous places in Vives with what was far from an epic party having suffered only 5 or 6 deaths.
You see the difference?
Now this isn't meant to be me seen as pointing a finger at players and saying 'well tough, you died but it's your own stupid fault'. I'd be the first to confess that as a player I'm just as guilty. But it applies both to DM run events and dungeon crawls where DMs aren't involved. The toughest places on this server can and will be survived with a little thought in advance. You are at that inn drinking, talking, introducing yourselves and others. Instead of bartering armour/weapons/items or planning the next shopping trip (and believe me I've seen it happen) take the time planning what you are going to do. I appreciate that - especially with a DM run event where things are going to be inherently different from usual, it's difficult to know exactly what you are facing. But you can still plan for -what if- situations. Clues are often given in posts leading up to an event, I even recall an occasion where I myself have posted OOC that players should be prepared for trouble. These things are said for a purpose.
Just a few thoughts which I hope will be taken in the right way and lead to players, and myself, enjoying the experience even more than I hope they have already |
ELVES! |
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