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Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 02:24 PM |
I don't see how asking (Can I surprise you and jump you with a Paralyze spell), or using a Daze spell, or casting Darkness, or using some spell that does no damage to someones health requires the use of permission from the other player. This seems quite counter-ideological to that of "great roleplaying" because we can't use abilities designated to us, because we "fear" someone may use a hundred stun spells on one person and ruin there fun.(Highly unlikely, and having rules in place probably wouldn't want to stop that person anyway).
As a community of roleplaying, I find it EXTREMELY mood disturbing to have to OOC Tell someone that I'm going to use Blindness/Defness on them.
I think we've built a huge security complex to contain a rabbit.
I hate to open up a can of worms, but as my character is all about being put in spooky situations, damp corridors, and surprises...I find it lessens my ability as a roleplayer, to have to reveal these things to other players...when its going to have no detrimental affect on the other players character aside from an animation. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 02:39 PM |
This has been discussed before and even though players are free to debate the issues again if they wish, there will be no change in the rules.
The feeling is that most OOC issues and upset are caused by PVP. Therefore a quick OOC tell converstaion to make sure that people are expecting PVP actually enhances the all round experience than detracting from it.
Plus you must'nt send them a tell saying that you are going to cast a spell on them, you need to ask their pernission, if they deny it you must leave them alone.
The reason why we include non-damaging and AOE spells in the PVP rules is because it can lead to powerplay. Characters have used their powers to bully and intimidate others and go on an ego-trip. And it causes OOC grief and upset and player complaints.
For example, getting players to go with your character willingly somewhere dangerous and then to cast darkness on them while they are in combat so that they get killed is against the PVP rules. (Unless you have clarified it with them OOC first).
- Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 02:47 PM |
I am in agreement with Romulus. Being as it is- I am more often on the recieving end of such spells than otherwise, and I also feel that a tell to that effect wrecks the mood. It is my opinion that we are protecting an individual's freedom from inconvenience to the detriment of the entire community.
Blah Blah, security complex. Barring a general consensus to modify the rule:
I hereby give automatic permission for characters to cast non-damage causing spells on -all- of my characters, providing that there is good IC reasoning for such a spell.
Additionally, I give permission for domination-type spells to be cast on -all- of my characters, with the understanding that they will be (most likely) -extremely- unhappy at having been manipulated after the spell wears off.
Both of these permissions come with three stipulations, those being:
One- GOOD IC reasoning. Dont do it just because you can now.
Two- if your intent -is- eventual PvP, I still ask that you ask me for permission beforehand.
I.E.: do not paralyze me, then ask me to PvP with you.
Three- must be in the spirit of RP. Just for clarification, I would consider a paralyzation in say... Nethar'ru, complete with demons, PvP.
Best regards,
Sheikh |
Malakhi Aquistine
Erick Whitestone |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 02:54 PM |
This has been discussed before and even though players are free to debate the issues again if they wish, there will be no change in the rules.
The feeling is that most OOC issues and upset are caused by PVP. Therefore a quick OOC tell converstaion to make sure that people are expecting PVP actually enhances the all round experience than detracting from it.
Plus you must'nt send them a tell saying that you are going to cast a spell on them, you need to ask their pernission, if they deny it you must leave them alone.
The reason why we include non-damaging and AOE spells in the PVP rules is because it can lead to powerplay. Characters have used their powers to bully and intimidate others and go on an ego-trip. And it causes OOC grief and upset and player complaints.
For example, getting players to go with your character willingly somewhere dangerous and then to cast darkness on them while they are in combat so that they get killed is against the PVP rules. (Unless you have clarified it with them OOC first).
- Sol
Understandably getting another player killed through the use of your spells is an obvious no no.
But if you're sitting in the middle of no where, with no harm going to come of the person it doesn't make sense.
I agree that there is a huge rule here, it squashes the very free-form idea of roleplaying.
As with the above post, I am perfectly fine with any forementionned non-damaging spells of any kind to my character without my permission. Whether or not a monster jumps me is fine as well. Shall roleplay accordingly.
It seems alot easier for an intimidated or bullied player to say "Please stop", rather than EVERY player to say "May I?". Counterproductive an inefficient. Also the immediate "We will never change the rule" seems a bit disheartenning as well. I think we should do whatever the community finds best, and I'm just lobbying a case against what the current rule is into consideration for other players to look at.
The rule as is, makes it seem like alot of people don't like this because someone cast "Paranoia" on them without permission. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 03:06 PM |
Normally, I would agree Rom
But too often, I have seen players abuse it.
I can remember last year a mage who often bullied lower level characters because he "could" and yet would claim foul when high level PC's would seek retribution for his acts on others.
It too often degenerates into petty fighting.
I know this is not your intention, but the rules are there to protect you and everyone else from those who don't understand why we have this rule and who take it personally if something does happen to their character.
It is perfectly fine to give others permission on doing these things, but unless you have been given explicit permission by the other player, either in the forums, or via tell, you cannot.
I've seen what you've been doing IG, and I have enjoyed your descriptions and hte antics of Romulus, but we must be careful that another player you have affect understands what is happening and that they are willing to go along with it so that it is enjoyable to both, rather than just one of you.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;quot;Permission Please&amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 03:07 PM |
I agree that there is a huge rule here, it squashes the very free-form idea of roleplaying.
I really don't see why? There are loads of other wonderfully valid forms of RP that do not involve players trying to hurt each other.
It seems alot easier for an intimidated or bullied player to say "Please stop", rather than EVERY player to say "May I?". Counterproductive an inefficient.
But that is the problem with bullies, those on the end of the bullying often do not feel able to say "please stop". The rule is in place to prevent problems rather than to have to sort them out after they have occurred.
Also the immediate "We will never change the rule" seems a bit disheartenning as well. I think we should do whatever the community finds best, and I'm just lobbying a case against what the current rule is into consideration for other players to look at.
As I said, feel free to discuss the rules, but the change was only clarified fairly recently by the DMs, so I can't see anyone coming up with an argument to change our minds.
The rule as is, makes it seem like alot of people don't like this because someone cast "Paranoia" on them without permission.
No, it's because too many players bend or try to find loopholes in rules to end up doing what we are trying to prevent in the first place. Play within the rules and we believe that the majority will be much happier.
And I am fairly confident in saying that since the ruling we have had NO player complaints about the way PVP has handled WHEN THE RULES HAVE BEEN FOLLOWED. Every single complaint we have had is because they still haven't been followed by some people.
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- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 03:10 PM |
Sorry, but I am completely with Solitaire's point of view.
I have experienced a long time ago such "non damaging" spell without being said so and, even if I love to rp, I find that pretty annoying. Why? Because there will always be rp purpose for doing such, and because there are many, many other ways to do than just casting a spell. Most of the time you can't resist it and you are forced to do something. Personnally, I prefer to rp speaking and yelling than just being cast something and the guy leaves.
There are many other ways to get out of a risky situation ;) |
Frodo : What are we holding on to, Sam?
Sam : That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.
-The Two Towers |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 03:28 PM |
| Talked with Sirac. Would it be alright if a list of people who were perfectly fine with being cast on by non-dmg PVP spells be available to those who think the rule is too constraining, as long as they would clearly understand the consequences, and what would be possible to them by making this so, I think this is perhaps atleast one viable way to appease another group of players who think you can add to the roleplaying not take away from it with these spells. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 04:40 PM |
I give permission for non damaging spells and any rped voilence towards all my characters. I have had many many great rp sessions with Rom and I would like to say thank you, both when he has scared me and when he has lost its been great.
as has been said by others if you do expect characters to be annoyed unless you have away to stop them from remembering.
C |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 04:44 PM |
Am absolutely fine with this, indeed was even done before by Hans. But will just reiterate the point made then, consent must be mutual and two ways.
And Romulus is -not- immortal, or anything like it. If he provokes a fight through these kind of actions, and loses, there will be significant consequences.
The Vives team have no interest in a character wandering around thinking he is immune to consequence for such actions.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 05:40 PM |
I don't participate in Pvp much... too worried about hurting people's feelings for the most part... and though it might seem like it.. my personal feelings are never damaged... but as far as this thread goes...
I don't particular feel a need for a warning for a Blindness etc spell... for my characters... if you want to use one of these spells, go ahead.... Heck, I only start taking swings after attempted damage comes into play, Such as Evard's Tentacles, or Negative energy ray... and I always give many IC warnings before any of my characters retaliate. I don't know if such conditions can apply to everyone... but I personally feel I have enough mutual control over a situation to have both of us stop fighting before anything gets out of hand, and feelings get hurt. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission Please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 06:29 PM |
Talked with Sirac. Would it be alright if a list of people who were perfectly fine with being cast on by non-dmg PVP spells be available to those who think the rule is too constraining, as long as they would clearly understand the consequences, and what would be possible to them by making this so, I think this is perhaps atleast one viable way to appease another group of players who think you can add to the roleplaying not take away from it with these spells.
Thats all very well , so long as you would co-operate if my non spell casting and lower level (though much stronger) chr. , were to, the next time they meet, stuff a potatoe in his mouth , get him in a headlock and knee him repeatedly (though non damagingly) in the face , leaving him to bleed gagged in the gutter.
Perhaps i over emphersize the point , i think a tell asking is always the best way |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &quot;Permission Please&quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 06:34 PM |
Am absolutely fine with this, indeed was even done before by Hans. But will just reiterate the point made then, consent must be mutual and two ways.
And Romulus is -not- immortal, or anything like it. If he provokes a fight through these kind of actions, and loses, there will be significant consequences.
The Vives team have no interest in a character wandering around thinking he is immune to consequence for such actions.
Cheers,
Sirac
Of course. No character is immortal. Just be careful what you think may be killing *Grins*. I still think Solitaire has a grave misunderstanding of what I was talking about. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 07:21 PM |
Thats all very well , so long as you would co-operate if my non spell casting and lower level (though much stronger) chr. , were to, the next time they meet, stuff a potatoe in his mouth , get him in a headlock and knee him repeatedly (though non damagingly) in the face , leaving him to bleed gagged in the gutter.
Perhaps i over emphersize the point , i think a tell asking is always the best way
Funny thing. ;)
But seriously, I see your point. It would give *yet* another strong point to wizards against fighters.
The same goes with character that "punch" another one and because the character that has been hit is a fighter, therefore he doesn't even feel it, is not really fun.
Just one thing though...why not focusing on the rp without hurting/spellcasting/stats checking all the time? You can be angry at someone, but do you always have to rely on spells or to hurt someone else? I'm not sure about that... |
Frodo : What are we holding on to, Sam?
Sam : That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.
-The Two Towers |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 08:27 PM |
| Well, fighters aren't limited to punching someone. Just be creative :D I personally enjoyed my kidnapping streak. Anyways, I'm all cool if anyone wants to do whatever to me. Just be ready for blades to be drawn ;) |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as "Permission please" PVP spells.
Posted: 27 May 2005 10:51 PM |
| *hits her with a sap from the shadows and steals all her blades* |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;quot;Permission please&amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 28 May 2005 04:24 AM |
Just be ready for blades to be drawn
Just remember PVP is supposed to be a last resort here on Vives. And in when PVP is initiated OOC consent IS required.
We don't want to see situations where PC(A) says "sure I'm fine if PC(B) casts darkness etc on my character" then PC(B) does so, and PC(A) attacks with a blade in response and then PC(B) gets annoyed because they were attacked with no PVP warning.
I still think Solitaire has a grave misunderstanding of what I was talking about.
I really don't think I have any misunderstanding of what you are talking about, but I don't want to have a public discussion/argument with you about it!
And don't forget This thread where this was already discussed around in circles because of a similar incident!
- Solitaire |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;quot;Permission please&amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 28 May 2005 01:04 PM |
| Well I appreciate the understanding than Solitaire, and Romulus will be RP'd as imagined, thought up, and carefully devilishly crafted as so :). |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;quot;Permission please&amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 28 May 2005 02:04 PM |
Well I appreciate the understanding than Solitaire, and Romulus will be RP'd as imagined, thought up, and carefully devilishly crafted as so :).
lol, is it me, or did that sound alot like "I will play him as I want regardless of any rules or guidelines!"
lol :)
-Troublemaker |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;quot;Permission please&amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 28 May 2005 02:34 PM |
| Nah. Just it was a question of concern regarding the certain backround of my character that needed to be clarified. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;quot;Permission please&amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 28 May 2005 04:17 PM |
Just for the record I have no objection to non-harming PvP spells being cast upon me (unless of course you Stun me next to a Black dragon).
Whilst this seems the best way to accomodate Roms idea (which I completely agree with) whilst protecting the concerns held by the DMs (which i completely agree with) is there anyway to compile a convenient list *looks at Rom* easily accessible, say from Pinned thread somewhere. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;quot;Permission please&amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 28 May 2005 05:10 PM |
Just for the record I have no objection to non-harming PvP spells being cast upon me (unless of course you Stun me next to a Black dragon).
Whilst this seems the best way to accomodate Roms idea (which I completely agree with) whilst protecting the concerns held by the DMs (which i completely agree with) is there anyway to compile a convenient list *looks at Rom* easily accessible, say from Pinned thread somewhere.
http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=36465#36478 |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;amp;quot;Permission please&amp;amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 29 May 2005 03:16 AM |
romulus i give you full permision to do anything you want to any of my characters with no notice whatsoever as you are the best rper evar... EVAR!!!!
With a passion, Sion. |
When in doubt, mumble. When in trouble, delegate. |
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Re: Why are non damaging spells designated as &amp;amp;quot;Permission please&amp;amp;quot; PVP spells.
Posted: 01 Jun 2005 11:44 AM |
you are the best rper evar... EVAR!!!!
With a passion, Sion.
Well said! |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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