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PvP guidlines updated
Posted: 07 Jan 2005 01:54 PM |
| Please read |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 04:33 PM |
See this link?
http://vives.dyndns.org/Vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=20814#26242
Everyone of you stop right now and go read it.
Read it a second time.
This is the second PvP incident in the last three days that has not followed these simple rules.
If these rules are too difficult, or you cannot understand them, or there are too many steps, I will give you a new rule for your personal use that is simple and that you can apply in any and all circumstances.
No PvP ever!
Are there any questions?
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 04:52 PM |
| Does Subdual Damage from Death spells need to be tested? What does "May not be" mean? |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 05:15 PM |
Speaking as the victim of the said PvP i would like to megaly bump this.
The incident didnt obey even the first rule never mind any of the others
i estimate that my chr. was given less than 10 secs to respond to the threat ...and was typing a response when i was attacked . The initial attack stunned me and left me with 5 Hps ..
The fact that the attackers pet finished me is irrelevent.
I know it was RP ed slightly but as i didnt even have time to type a reply i would like to say That in my 10 months in vives that was probably the crapest moment.
This isnt a flame as i am not mentioning names here or to anyone else through tells .
But the fact that the protagonist has been here longer than myself , and that he logged 2 minutes after the event not to return is pretty poor.
Ok rant over ive calmed down
Big bad evil Dave |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 05:38 PM |
Does Subdual Damage from Death spells need to be tested? What does "May not be" mean?
I'd assume that 'may not' means that there is a risk that subdual damage doesn't always work for every spell. As in, it "may not" protect you from your actions or the actions of another player. Someone will correct me, if I'm wrong.
For what it's worth, my opinion is that subdual damage shouldn't apply to spells at all.
My reasoning is that there are no such spells as "Luke's Warm & Toasty Fireball" or "Velvet Hammer of the Gods". Subdual damage for spells in my mind is either completely OOC or cheesing an ability/spell that a PC doesn't really have.
I'd hate to see Vives development team focused on testing so that training wheels can be provided to players that want PvP without risk (or don't know how to use the game client) to play. Seems hardly worth the effort to me, when compared with work to get 1.65 updated or new areas/quests/adventures/DM plots/etc.
I've yet to hear of a well-handled PvP encounter here. Maybe they should ban PvP. This last one being a perfect example. I'd rather see some questing or something- but that's me I suppose. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 06:00 PM |
I've seen good PvP encounters on Vives. I've also seen, and been involved in (On both sides, I'm somewhat shamed to admit) bad ones. Read and follow these rules. Yes, they are tedious- and they can lead to your PCs not acting purely as you'd like them to- but they will stop almost all PvP which will cause OOC problems. And that's the point of the rules.
-Barnas |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 06:21 PM |
humms, I have to say that i have given some pvp beatings and taken some really good pvp beating see mr Barnas above :D .
But I have done it to the point that the character has never died. and i have always given a reason for it and have spoken to the person ooc.
But then on the same side if your 1st level and your mouthing of to miss evil misstress Fri'el and she kills you then why are you crying i mean how is that any differnt to you running up to a impossible npc that kills you without thinking about it.
I think to ban it completly would result in the possibility of low level pc's not caring if they want to mouth off to god like pcs and that seems a little unfair. Why knock the person out, kill with subdual, and leave them for the guards?
as i said i have been given some great incharacter beatings some of them have led to some great storylines for me and the other pcs involved. I hope that there not banned but at the same time Players need to be fair in when they are attacking low level characters. It might be possible that this is a very stupid man that doenst know you can kill a dragon ;D
hey this is my two pennies hope you all have fun. right wheres Fri'el. |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 06:29 PM |
PvP, however annoying it may be to some, is essential for roleplay, even at the rare circumstances it /should/ come in. Banning PvP will simply demolish the even potential for a more extreme form of conflict. Threats can be made in Vives, /are/ made in Vives, without even going PvP. Sometimes it's because of RP reasons, purely - one of both sides dont really want to fight the other. Sometimes it can be pure OOC reason - to avoid grief, and an appropriate RP is made to avoid it. Yes, the rules sometimes dont allow your character to act as you would like it, but even in a violent world, no character goes around fighting with axes and swords everything that pisses it off (Characters who are shouldnt be allowed, simple as that).
The subdual damage is a great tool, that /should/ apply to all types of damage, even magical. Fights should end up with real death only to the extreme of the extreme, and only when the two sides agree. RP-wise, not all fights end up with one killing each other, at extreme bringing him to utter defeat by horrible injuries.
And about the magical subdual, concerning Aesir's point, what's the difference between slashes and bleeding to death by a sword, mauled and broken by fists/hammer, or scorched horribly by magic? I see little difference, all can get you "near death", but not nessecarily to death. Fine by me.
Some of these rules can be OOC, /are/ OOC, but we are all here to have fun and roleplay. And sometimes, in cases like this, OOC comes to preserve fun (And if you ask me, doesnt harm roleplay by the bit). |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 06:55 PM |
And about the magical subdual, concerning Aesir's point, what's the difference between slashes and bleeding to death by a sword, mauled and broken by fists/hammer, or scorched horribly by magic? I see little difference, all can get you "near death", but not nessecarily to death. Fine by me.
I look to the PnP description of subdual damage for the answer to your question. Subdual damage is reflected in weapons use by using the 'flat of the blade' or aiming shots at less vital areas of the body during combat. *shrugs* No matter to me, it's being used as a crutch. I'd actually prefer that subdual damage be toggled *off* by default, but that puts me at too much risk from sloppy casters that don't know the area of effect or power of a spell or players that don't know the rules of PvP on Vives. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 06:58 PM |
The intent of this thread is to draw attention to the PvP guidelines implemented in Vives, not so much as to debate the relative merits of PvP. For that, please refer to several older threads elsewhere.
Enjoy!
((Sorry about the post deletion, Aesir. It wasn't intentional.)) |
Eyes In The Skies
Looking at you, I can read your mind. |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 07:00 PM |
| No problem, Eyes. Probably made me rethink the ahh... intensity.. of my choice of words replying to W.A. anyway. ;) |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 08:19 PM |
I think this might be in reference to my PVP today in Midor City. I made two mistakes: I did not know the person needed to know(Through PM's) I was going to attack him (seems to sort of ruin the atmosphere btw), and I did not know my pet would kill them. A mistake I don't plan to make again. I had to log off because of a personal issue, so please do not judge me for that.
No hard feelings were meant, and most people will tell you, I am the slowest person to action they ever know. |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 08:47 PM |
I think as it just works out that the server has to curtail to everybody.
Me and Rom had a little spat the other day (also referred to as me blasting him three or four times) and I sent him a brief thing "..Uh... Is it okay if I kill you?" To which he responded "Yeah, go for it." or something like that. Then he actually DIED (which I hadn't meant to happen - BIG NOTE: SUMMONS DO NOT DEAL SUBDUAL DAMAGE) and he just shrugged it off. CPC I know, but it wasn't a big fancy thing.
On the other hand I casted Dominate Monster on somone for five minutes (with positive intentions, trying to help) and found out that I had offended them. Granted, I'm extremely apologetic to that person (and as soon as I FIND that person I will deliver my apology personally), but it happens, and the rules need to be set at the softest setting so nobody gets hurt.
I'm all for PVP if it makes some sort of sense. Two characters yelling at each other about "You're evil! Die!" "No you!" and a situation arises where it's "fight, or it's going to be really anti-climactic." I always envision the following scene when I think about the PVP rules here.
Old Man #1 - "You evil bastard! I'll get you for this!"
Old Man #2 - "Ahaha! I'm an evil bastard, what are you gonna do about it?"
Old Man #1 - Wavers, PVP Rules. "I'll get you next time, you bastard!"
Old Man #2 - "Meh heh heh heh! I thought not!"
I like PvP and I think that if you allow any alignment with the word "EVIL" in it along with any alignment with the word "GOOD" in it, then these two factions should be quarelling and trying to kill one another. If you're going to be a villain, and you're going to do evil deeds, then people should be coming after you like ANY OTHER evil NPC and trying to hurt and kill you. As it has been said, "If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen." And I think handing everyone boffer swords and spell packets in NWN gives characters an added sense of invulnerability. Evil Alignments and Evil Characters should be much more difficult to advance because there's the threat of getting "caught." They shouldn't have the option of walking around teasing all the heroes with the DM shield of "Hah hah, you can't PVP me because I won't let you." Especially because when you see a thief with his hand in Doc McGillicutty's coffers and you try to tell the guard, there never seems to be a DM around to "stop the thief!" or whatever. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 09:05 PM |
| These and other points regarding the value or purpose of PvP were raised in several older threads. This thread is intended to ensure that everyone knows what the current rules are, but feedback is of course welcomed. |
Eyes In The Skies
Looking at you, I can read your mind. |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 09:18 PM |
I'll never understand the reason of these complaints. No intention in flaming no one but...when I look at these kind of posts I only think one thing. Are we dealing with 10 year old kids here?
Oh you killed me I'll report to DMs, oh your bad Im gona get you, bla bla bla...
Everyone here knows who eachother are, almost everyone is in IRC, when something goes wrong, Why not just meet him in IRC, PM him,
"Ey dude I didnt enjoyed that thing what was that all about? Oops sorry man, didnt knew familiar would not be subdual, will not happen again right sorry for that."
Is this to much to ask?
About the PvP rules, I dont like them BUT I perfectly understand the reason for them...When people cant deal with things restriction are imposed, and rules made and aplied. Rules come when comon sence dont exist...
Now RP wise...Ban PvP...are we really speaking of RP server? PvP is and not PvP when you are playing... Player vs Player? wtf is this? Im not hurting the other player Im having fun with him. Its will happen maybe Char vs Char, and IG, people die, people are nervous, people are evil, some are thiefs some are murderers, and so on.... This is a magic world, I cant think why would someone not be afraid of Miss Fri'el....with all her background..well known...You coming and spiting in her shoe, is more or like Having KILL ME written in your chest.
And do you know what troubles me more in the end.... Its that I cant stop thinking why people get so upset...One event went bad IG Im upset? Well respawn go RP have fun again. Or is the problem I died, now I'll loose my precious XP?
I would love to think it JUST the first option, I admit I dont like to hit the respawn, payed for it sometimes already...ey dude..it happened. Just hit it and move on...
Edit:
I forgot to tell this. Subdual for spells? Yes maybe for some. If I am correct subdual is just when you were beaten and you are more close from death then you ever were. Maybe in coma....
But I use Finger of Death I WILL KIL you. Nothing to add, no subdual there.....I meant to kill you its a death spell bang your dead. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 10:49 PM |
Does Subdual Damage from Death spells need to be tested? What does "May not be" mean?
No, it does not.
Assume that your spells will kill someone dead.
So, if you feel the need to use spells, consider the non harmful ones (hold person) as opposed to "Tickleball"
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 10:50 PM |
I think to ban it completly would result in the possibility of low level pc's not caring if they want to mouth off to god like pcs and that seems a little unfair. Why knock the person out, kill with subdual, and leave them for the guards?
My suggest rule change only applies to those who cannot follow the existing rules. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 10:57 PM |
The subdual damage is a great tool, that /should/ apply to all types of damage, even magical. Fights should end up with real death only to the extreme of the extreme, and only when the two sides agree. RP-wise, not all fights end up with one killing each other, at extreme bringing him to utter defeat by horrible injuries.
And about the magical subdual, concerning Aesir's point, what's the difference between slashes and bleeding to death by a sword, mauled and broken by fists/hammer, or scorched horribly by magic? I see little difference, all can get you "near death", but not nessecarily to death. Fine by me.
One diffference between the two has to do with the amount of damage that is delivered. Magic tends to dish out a whole lot of hurt in a very short time. It is hard to "pull your blow" with a spell after it has been cast.
When someone holds a sword, it is easier to pull the blow as you make it, or use turn the blow to make it less lethal.
With spells, unless someone develops specifically a subdual spell, you do not have this option.
In spite of this, most of the damaging spells do obey the subdual widget. Spells used on weapons, or dealth spells, do not.
I wont tell you all the circumstances where this applies and where it does not (quite simply, I dont know because of how the engine works makes things unpredictable). Just assume that when you cast a spell, you are planning to kill, kill, killl, until dead, dead, dead
(which is also why we assume that all offensive mage spells are considered PvP - whether they do damage or not because of their potential to leave an opponent helpless and at your mercy)
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 11:06 PM |
No hard feelings were meant, and most people will tell you, I am the slowest person to action they ever know.
Understood Rom.
If you would contact the two directly and let them know what was going on at the time, and a personal apology, and read the rules on PvP, I would consider the issue closed.
One problem with the 3e / nwn system is that characters of a few levels difference can have a vast difference in power. Imagine Luther or Muga going CE and having a night on the town - nigh unstoppable unless they were severly weakened some how.
I find that the current PvP rules do improve the atmosphere.
Imagine if the rules had been followed, it would have given the characters a chance to worm their way out of it, give a DM time to drop an NPC in, or give Rom a chance to make new converts to his mission, or run away in abject terror of the fear that is Romulus, or simply get pasted (as you hit the end of the list) because they were not IC not smart enough to avoid hitting the end of the list.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 11:11 PM |
| I don't remember the names of the people, I do remember Johe and he has my apollogies. There was another, Leon perhaps? My apollogies to both. I had thought they knew that Romulus' residence was in Gorlath Keep, and would understand better his reaction to their entrance and the killing of the spirits inside. A personal apollogy, and I will contact someone in the future. |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 11:11 PM |
They shouldn't have the option of walking around teasing all the heroes with the DM shield of "Hah hah, you can't PVP me because I won't let you." Especially because when you see a thief with his hand in Doc McGillicutty's coffers and you try to tell the guard, there never seems to be a DM around to "stop the thief!" or whatever.
And that is where you hit stage 4 in the PvP rules.
At that point, battle breaks out, someone dies.
If it were the thief who ends up on the wrong end of it, you can RP taking the earnings away and giving them back their rightful owner and the thief properly admonished.
So thieves, this brings up a good point - if you do your thieving in plain sight, leave your doors open and otherwise be completely obvious about it - you could get caught and it could end badly for you. You have HIS and MS for a reason.
As for the other incident Rob, I understand you were RP'ing it. Just the same, it made us realize we had not expressly mentioned about spells in the rules, and now we have.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 11:18 PM |
No PvP ever!
For the record, I was just speaking for myself, being tongue-in-cheek because of the fustration I felt at that point.
Thats all.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 11:33 PM |
One problem with the 3e / nwn system is that characters of a few levels difference can have a vast difference in power. Imagine Luther or Muga going CE and having a night on the town - nigh unstoppable unless they were severly weakened some how.
The level difference isn't so bad. I bet I could kill Luther or Muga. I bet Daimon would have a good shot too. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 08 Jan 2005 11:49 PM |
That's offtopic and not really relevent to this thread.
Under different circumstances, one character may have an advantage over another when normally they may not. We are not addressing this issue.
We are trying address the problems that result when a system allows one character to be, in general, vastly more powerful than another by creating a PvP system that gives those of lesser power a chance and ensure that people respect it so that the RP for all is enjoyable.
- Paul
PS: Don't bet on it. :) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Hey! Pay Attention!
Posted: 09 Jan 2005 04:04 AM |
Muga's hard to kill when she gets into melee. Luther's only hard because he has a pool of hitpoints the size of the Atlantic ocean. :P
-Barnas |
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