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Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 03:02 AM |
Didnt want to sidetrack Jack Sprat's excellent RP post in his thread "musings of an old man". But as this issue has reared its head once more, thought some public discussion might help. Understand -none- of this is aimed as a criticism of Jack, or any other caster.
Why would the mother allow him to open a portal through which a filthy demon could step, albeit controlled and bound to aid, and yet take him to task over doing such a thing. Surely if another of natures creatures or creations would suit the role better, then she would have granted him that power instead.
This is -exactly- what we were talking about in the other thread, game mechanics versus RP. The team that makes Vives did not make NWN. We do not have absolute control over what mechanics allow. But does this mean that just because a goodly cleric can summon a greater undead, or a demon, they should do so? I think it is fairly obvious not. So someone's God taking them to task over this is not in anyway a criticism of them as a player, especially not if its the first time they are seen doing so and spoken to. But an attempt to make them think about what their character would and wouldnt do.
The argument that my god allows it has been made before. Well, you can pick up a sword and use it to fight the good fight. Or to slay an innocent. Your choice. Your god makes the magic available to you, especially so in Vives, but they do not micromanage what you use the magic to achieve. That is your own free will at work.
By the way should make clear that I am not the DM, I dont even know who was, that spoke to Jack about demon summoning. But I have done so with other players, and I know the score with demons very well.
There is an IC IG reason that demons can be "summoned" as it were. With consequences for doing so. Worth looking into. There may even be an IG way in which something else can be "summoned" in its place. Also worth looking into. Or even do a search for demons on the forums, there are some interesting tidbits to be discovered.
But again, just think outside the mechanics...just because a character finds a potent evil sword, would they use it. Just because they get the ability to create a powerful undead, would they cast it. Etc, etc.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 04:18 AM |
An interesting point.
Just because you can do something, does it mean you should?
Of course, given time, I could script every rule into the game as to which spells can and cannot be cast by any given spellcaster, but do we really need to come up with rules for every circumstance for every situation to determine what is appropriate for the characters in questions?
E.g. Good priest casting negative energy spells. Is that really appropriate? Summoning undead? Is that the act of a priest in tune with nature? (no, I am not saying that Jack's priest has done this, they are only examples).
The point about an RP server is that your actions can and do have consequences. You can do whatever you like, but if those actions are not in accordance with the players professed beliefs, then expect repercussions.
Mind you, those repercussions maybe the perfectly desired IC consequences. (priest discovers summoning demons is fun and is gradually lured by their promises of power, etc, etc.)
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 05:28 AM |
Just a thought....
Surely from the Goodly Cleric being able to summon a Demon is wrong. As a cleric's power is granted from there deity, - Ie a priest of Elbereth would not be allowed to summon a demon.
As the goodly deity would not grant this act. Obviously its a mechanic issue that a goodly cleric can actually summon a Demon, rather than alot of hard work changing the script, I think a simple blanket rule should be imposed that a goodly/Evil clerics cant cast x y and z except in exstreme role play circumstances.
But this should probally work both ways, should an evil priest be able to grant another life or summon an angel?
I havent finished my musing but i thought that would get us started.
Jimmy. |
Tom Benedict (elf cleric), Jimmy Scarlet (human ranger) Drogar Dintfin (Halfling Thief) |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 05:34 AM |
That's very true. We could put in a load of rules about what clerics can/can't do.
I'd say that we shouldn't for a number of reasons- one, it fits the world of Vives better that they /can/ do it, but shouldn't.
Also, I for one don't think that pages of rules are a good thing. Common sense says that a "Good" character- let alone a goodly cleric- shouldn't summon demons, create undead... I don't think we really need to put pages of rules in to point that out, do we?
As a sidenote, I think that it is fine for an Evil character to force an angel to do evil deeds for them. Forcing beings into slavery to serve their own ends is a perfectly acceptable method for an evil character to use.
-Barnas |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 05:39 AM |
I cant go into details. But there are very good reasons why the "gate" spell works as it does. And what happens when the gate spell is cast is very established knowledge IG. Ask anyone who had a reasonable involvement in the opening of Netharu storyline and they should be able to tell you more IC. All I will say is that remember there are no other planes in Vives. So demons certainly are not "summoned" from another plane. What happens when the gate spell is cast is known by some experienced spell casters, amongst others, IG. Ask around.
It is very important not to pre-judge either magic or gods in Vives on standard D&D knowledge. Gods do not grant spells to their clerics, they grant magic. How the cleric uses and manipulates that magic is their choice. In the same way as when they pick up a weapon, how they use that is their choice.
Like pdw says above, we do not want to legislate every possible action IG. We leave it to characters to decide what they will and wont do, and then where necessary introduce consequences to those decisions.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 07:00 AM |
Just out of interest, I haven't ever actually cast Gate as Rasp. Mainly because ooc I know about the alignment hit from it and because I don't think its what he would do. If it worked the way Planar ally worked then he would - a lot!
I'm just assuming for RP purposes that he knows what his own god has made him capable of, and as people have said, he's excercising his own free will to either use the power the mother gave him - or not - as he see's fit.
It's good that aren't more hard and fast rules governing who can and can't do what and why.
In the LRP system I play in, it would be a perfectly acceptable act for a goodly, non-weapon using priest to decide to pick up and swing a physical sword to defeat the hordes decending on his companions prone bodies. That's his choice and his free will. As a DM I'd then take the appropriate steps and he'd pretty soon (depending on my mood on the day) find himself as a paladin, or a warrior, or a weapon using priest, or whatever.
It'd be nice if something as hard as Gate worked on an alignment basis (especially given how few decent spells there actually are to choose from when you finally get 9th level casting!) but I'm not in any way griping that it isn't.
Simply put - you pays your money and you takes your chance. Gate in all the demons you want to 'fight the good fight' - just then don't be suprised when your goodly, demon hating diety isn't standing by your side at the end of the fight; and instead - its something nasty with sharp, pointy teeth! |
Jack Sprat - Dashing half-elven 'pirate' rogue
Rasputin Kalarmander - Old human cleric of Elbereth
Coral Shadeleaper - Timid elven wizard
Fenris Wolf - Barbarian elf ranger
Leaf Barksson - Elven druid
Xyfar-noo - Dwarven traveling cleric |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 07:06 AM |
It'd be nice if something as hard as Gate worked on an alignment basis (especially given how few decent spells there actually are to choose from when you finally get 9th level casting!) but I'm not in any way griping that it isn't.
All I will add to this (as has been hinted before) is FOIG!!! There are a few high-level casters who may be able to help you!
- Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 07:24 AM |
Absolutely, casting spells or using items that don't necessarily fit your char's alignment, religion or whatever, is a matter for your character's conscience. Do it against what you believe or who you follow and, yes, the chances are there will be repercussions.
But as has been hinted above, there is a LOT of IG knowledge, ask around. |
ELVES! |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 09:44 AM |
I've got a couple of questions that somewhat apply to this thread:
1. The higher level Summon Monster spells allow a cleric to summon one of four types of elementals. Obviously, Juylina would only summon a fire elemental but the type that comes is random. My one way around this would be to have the summon twice and hope one of the two bring one out and if not just unsummon it. Is this similar to what other people do on Vives or even on other PWs when they have a reason to only summon a specific elemental?
2. Planar Ally will summon a Succubus for evil characters. How much would the character summoning know of where it came from?
3. Could I RP with my summon? Could I make it respond favorably to my requests (more likely demands)? Could I make sure to summon the same one i.e. the same succubus every time?
I'm not trying to dig too deep, but I'm just trying to get a handle on the "no planes" in relation to summoning. I might have some more questions later. Thanks. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 10:00 AM |
1. The higher level Summon Monster spells allow a cleric to summon one of four types of elementals. Obviously, Juylina would only summon a fire elemental but the type that comes is random. My one way around this would be to have the summon twice and hope one of the two bring one out and if not just unsummon it. Is this similar to what other people do on Vives or even on other PWs when they have a reason to only summon a specific elemental?
Yes I think this is the best way to do this, i.e. multiple summoning.
2. Planar Ally will summon a Succubus for evil characters. How much would the character summoning know of where it came from?
This is kind of a FOIG thing. We've tended to have played this that all PCs just thought they were summoning creatures from elsewhere without giving it much thought, but the just before the opening of Nethar'u the knowledge came out that these beings were being created not summoned. So by now Juylina should know she is creating these beings and they are likely to go back to Nethar'u after creation.
3. Could I RP with my summon? Could I make it respond favorably to my requests (more likely demands)? Could I make sure to summon the same one i.e. the same succubus every time?
Yes you can and some PCs do RP that they are calling back the same creature every time after the first time they created it. As an evil PC it could be somehow geased (sp?!) or bound to you to return when you call.
I'm not trying to dig too deep, but I'm just trying to get a handle on the "no planes" in relation to summoning. I might have some more questions later. Thanks.
No problems. Some stuff is FOIG, so best to ask around people IG first.
cheers
Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 10:08 AM |
Hmm, why not just give characters like Juylina the nice little brazier that let´s her only summon fire elementals? Because summoning again and again until you have what you want, I don´t know. Of course, people should not use the spell at all then if they do it by the brazier, and the brazier should be limited to once or twice a day I guess.
Just a thought.
These summoning tools are nice for roleplaying a summon aswell. Instead of just throwing out some elemental you can control the creation...like any supermage should be able to. ;) |
Portraits: zip.rar
PRAISE HECK, FOR HIS NAME IS HECK, AND JUST HECK! |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 10:13 AM |
Ok, seeing as Sol has mentioned the whole creating v summoning thing, which is kinda IG info but also a lot more widely available now than it used to be...
Since the Netharu plot, there is a widespread belief that demons and celestials are indeed created through the use of magic. This is the principle manner in which they come into being.
This belief is considered fraudulent, or even heretical by some groups / PCs. But the belief is out there...its validity or source would definitely need to be discovered IG.
More natural creatures may well be "summoned" from their natural habitat, but demons and celestials there is an increasingly wide spread belief that they are created. So to cast Gate is to create an entirely new being. And then that being can, if the caster so chooses, be resummoned with the next casting of Gate...or a new one brought into being.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 10:49 AM |
*scratches head and mumbles to himself* If demons are created then return to Nethar'u.... Where do all those celestials that get created go?... Where is anti-Nethar'u?  Sorry... not really on topic, but I only post once in a while so thbt! hehe |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 10:54 AM |
| Calia's been looking for near three months now and still hasnt found it |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 11:28 AM |
*scratches head and mumbles to himself* If demons are created then return to Nethar'u.... Where do all those celestials that get created go?... Where is anti-Nethar'u? Sorry... not really on topic, but I only post once in a while so thbt! hehe
Good question. FOIG...maybe...one day! *grins*
Suffice to say there is an answer, but not one known to any PC currently...
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Jack Sprats post
Posted: 14 May 2005 12:40 PM |
| Thanks, that makes things a bit more clear. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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