|
WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 16 Oct 2004 11:05 PM |
Anyone notice the massive, massive lack of paladins who aren't Midorites?
...or better yet.
Anyone notice the massive lack of gods even qualified to have Lawful Good paladins? ;p
It would be nice to see some Holy Warriors(and I don't mean clerics) of a god OTHER than Midor.
As an IC problem, Shard recently stumbled across.. of all things.. a Holy Avenger. This sword is totally useless to a necr.. err.. Wizard. Shard isn't the kind of person to destroy magical weapons, especially of this caliber. His original plan was to hold on to it until he found someone worthy enough(and who didn't annoy him too much). Absolutely abhoring Midorite paladins(as well as most midorites in general), he hasn't run across any other holy warriors capable of wielding such a blade.
Other than this being an IC problem for Shard.. it would just be kind of nice to see something new or different. |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
|
  |
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 16 Oct 2004 11:43 PM |
Holy avengers should not be casually found in the treasure tables. Sometimes a powerful item can "leak" into the game.
All Paladins are Paladins of Midor. There are no exceptions. Anyone claiming anything to the contrary are either liars or heretics.
That is the nature of vives.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 16 Oct 2004 11:57 PM |
| Seriously? |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 12:19 AM |
| Seriously. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 12:24 AM |
So that means all Paladins are Human too... right?
a Lawful Good only Human only Midoran only single class only class? No wonder there are so few. |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 01:09 AM |
| Too few? Pfft... one paladin is far more than enough. *Nods firmly* |
Valarien Wrynn
"All I ever wanted from life was a good drink and a pretty lass on me lap..." |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 01:18 AM |
Wasn't there a Paladin of Aros at one time? I think her name was Eleni Silverhair or something like that :)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 01:44 AM |
There was an elven paladin of Midoran (now fallen)
and yes, there was an elvin Paladin of Aros. Special case. happened before the rules were set, I think.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 03:13 AM |
Wow. That really.. sucks.
My character would know this, then? (that all paladins are Midorites) |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 03:16 AM |
Holy avengers should not be casually found in the treasure tables.
With that said, maybe Shard would destroy it after all.
That sounds really fun to play out, since by magical means, it's not easily destroyed.. and anyone(good) who found out he had the weapon and intended to destroy it would likely try to recover it. |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 04:40 AM |
| Yeah, I think Even Daimon would try to stop you there.. and he's not much of a Midoran Fan. |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 05:08 AM |
Yeah, I think Even Daimon would try to stop you there.. and he's not much of a Midoran Fan.
but you know.... when I think of Daimon... all I see is a little 8-bit fighter saying "I like swords"
Inspiration |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 06:47 AM |
*Grins*
I'm much more of a Red mage really....
Anyways... Yeah.. Daimon has a certain love for swords.... a special respect for each and every blade. |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 06:30 PM |
| Class Cal. |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:05 PM |
Sword-chucks!
:) |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 18 Oct 2004 04:20 PM |
If you want a really powerful magical item destroyed give it to Quin. But make sure you tell him that its really useful and ask him to put it to good use. That way you can ensure it wont ever work again .
As for lack of Paladins and dedication to only one God, that seems perfectly reasonable to me. Midoran is the only God that would have such Holy Warriors and the fact there are few around aptly reflects the nature of the Paladin class. They are few and far between, highly dedicated and unique amongst the unique hero world.
Of course that doesnt mean there cannot be warriors or clerics who passionately champion their cause but thats not the same as being a paladin which is a stage further beyond that.
Personally I dont like the fact that 3rd Ed has removed the stringent requirements for playing a Paladin anyway, though with a point purchase system such as NWN that would never have posed that great a dillemma anyway. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 18 Oct 2004 10:42 PM |
I, honestly, prefer the Alignment Variant rules. A paladin is, by definition, a Champion or Hero. Neither of these are something strictly set to being lawful good.
Saying that a cleric is a passionate champion to a diety heavily qualifies him to being a Paladin of that diety. Paladins and clerics are totally different. Clerics are preachers; they demonstrate the will of their god through their words and actions. Paladins are instruments of that god. In a way, they are direct, mortal manifestations of all that God stands for. Next only to the Divine(Outsiders, in any other setting) servants.
This applies to every god, since they all have their own. Vives, naturally, is it's own game entirely. So, this(as stated above) doesn't apply here. As a personal opinion, I think it should, since there's no real reason, other than it just being a rule with no explanation. It is also my opinion that a Paladin should only be able to reflect the exact alignment of that god(Whereas clerics can be within one step). But, that's not really written anywhere(So, at a technical standpoint, a Lawful Good paladin could champion a Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, or Lawful Good god) |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 18 Oct 2004 11:32 PM |
Having had a bit of experience with paladins, I thought I'd put my two cents in.
The thing that seperates paladins from other holy warriors or champions are the strict limitations they are under. A chaotic holy warrior (to use a Vives example, a Holy Warrior of Aros) worships a chaotic god, and while they may have some social norms and moreys they must meet, the requirements are alot less stringant then a paladin.
Paladins are shackled by their codes and their vows. They cannot act as they wish, however, they must temper their actions to fall within accordand of both the Lawful and the Good of their alignment. No other class has such strict requirements, but conversly (at least in PnP) no other class is so well rewarded. The struggle to remain Lawful Good, and to exemplify the good and holy nature they are a paragon of, is key to what a paladin is.
So I suppose I reject the notion that a paladin is simple a fancy name for a holy warrior of a god of any alignment. Paladins have much greater responsiblities, both to themselves, their church, the weak, and the law, then any other class. That needs to be remembered when thinking about just what a paladin is.
I have seldom seen a paladin played properly. I will be arrogant here for a moment and say that yes, I know how to play a paladin, so I know how difficult it can be. If one were to be strict with the D&D rules, a paladin must always, for example, tithe, and they have a limit on the number of magical items he or she can possess. If they sin, or fall from their code, they must perform pennance, all the while suffering from reduced stats (from the game mechanics side) as a punishment for their sin. It is a though road to travel, and not everyone can do it.
Unforutnatly, the nature of NWN has removed some of the uniqueness and specialness of the paladin. That's unavoidable. One of the things I always liked about Vives was how it attempts to restore the paladin to something special. Of course, that could be why few played them when I was here, again, it is difficult.
But dang, it's rewarding.
~Mykal |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 18 Oct 2004 11:49 PM |
It's Mykal!
Anyways... I find that the paladins here haven't quite improved since You've been around... a few more of them though. I do like to adhere to a much stronger limited paladin classification. I believe that Paladins should be rare.. and should have tremendous restrictions, but It seems odd to me that just because Midoran is a Lawful good God, that he should have More representation in our world religiously. I find that amusing. I think Paladins SHOULD be instruments of their gods, and I would have a hard time believing that Midoran has all these pieces to play in the great game of chess.. against an enemy, or adversary, with an empty board. Also, I think that a worpshipper of a non lawful god could be Very lawful in his dedication, and his actions. A lawful mentality is one that is inherrent in a paladin type role anyways, and I have a hard time accepting the fact that a Paladin type figure can't roam the lands worshipping say, Aros, in a Lawful fashion, simply because Aros is Not Lawful.
To me.. this would mean chaotic gods, such as... say... Tarik, could not have ANY worshippers at all.. because if every one of his followers had the exact same mentality he does, and the same opinions about morals, and placement in the "Alignment grid" then, none of them would find it a worthy enough task of Spending their time in worship, and in command of another being. Does that make any sense? I think an Alignment would directly influence any given individual's Role in society/Line of work. Things like Loyalty and worship, and commitment, to even a god who lacks these qualities, would still be the likes of a lawful individual. I don't see how the only "Paladins" in the Vives universe can only exist as followers of the only god who is coincidentally Also a paladin. I don't think that Mortal Support should be in any way, carbon copies of the God who's ideals they appreciate the most. That's one of the reasons I liked how Loli was a worshipper of Aros. Heck, and I hate Dwarves! (I'm a total Racist) |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 19 Oct 2004 01:20 AM |
You forget something, though. A paladin is STILL human(or whatever race, respectively). They aren't perfect, and their god doesn't expect them to be. As such, they still have flaws that make us the way we are.
The paladin class does not have just one specific personality that every paladin must follow to the dot. There are paladins who are arrogant, there are paladins who are racist, there are paladins who are overly righteous and think theirs is the only True god. It's not a matter of a Paladin being a perfect being
You say it's rewarding.. I disagree.
Paladins are a pretty good class, yes, but they've never really amazed me(speaking from a player standpoint). Even in AD&D, I'd gladly pick a fighter over a paladin. Yes, the paladin eventually could wield the mighty Holy Avenger sword, but let's face it.. a single sword to aspire to is not really impressive. A fighter had a larger number of choices, was not restricted by stats or alignment, and furthermore.. did so much more damage. In 3E, a paladin isn't much better. His spells are actually worth something, now, but he can't afford to have a weak stat. Not to mention.. those loss of feats are brutal. Since Paladins aren't supposed to multiclass, they suffer the harshest penalty of them all.. using only the abilities given to them from that single class. As a fighter, I have the versitility of picking up many feats initially, then multiclassing into other classes with no real penalty for doing so. A fighter/thief or fighter/barbarian, for instance.
Anyhow, point is... paladins aren't quite as amazing as people seem to paint out in their heads. Let's face it, if they were, NONE of us would be qualified to play them, since I haven't met a single player who can roleplay humanly perfection. Paladins are champions of their god. It's just a shame that there is only ONE paladin god on this server... especially since, that god is pretty far from the ideal paladin himself(According to the PHB, he's LN.. not LG.)
Edit: And mind you, he's arrogant enough to claim he's the only real god. ;) |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 19 Oct 2004 03:21 AM |
With all respect Grey I think you misunderstand both the nature of alignments and the nature of religion.
Being Lawful does not mean that you are somehow on the side of good and obey Laws. Its a political persuasion not a moral one. It simply means you adhere to a structure, a code, a set of values and do so indicitavly. Paladins by their very nature are beyond Warriors etc in that they follow not only their religion with passion, but they conduct the way in which they follow that pattern by a very strict code. Its stands to reason that you cannot therefore be a paladin with any alignment other than Lawful.
If you were Neutral you would accept the need for codes in some case but would not believe that it should be rigid and certainly would not dedicate to one without exception. If you were Chaotic you would see codes and rules such as this to be useless. Compare for example LE and CE.
Additionally, I think you have taken Mykal's illustration of paramount virtue as one of requiring human perfection. Whilst you are right to say Paladin's are neither perfect nor inhuman, that was not the suggestion as I took of what Mykal was saying.
Paladin's do however, need to be virtuous and to some extent self-righteous to a degree not expect of other followers of Gods and should they fall they must pay pennance. This system exists both on the lower and upper levels of the Catholic faith. Even the Pope himself goes to confession.
So in my mind a Paladin can only be LG. That is not to say that equivalents of other faiths cannot exist. Many of the faiths of Forgotten Realms have their own equivalent reflecting more closely the values of that god. Gold Eyes for the Merchant God of Waukeen for example.
Put simply I dont think there's any value in stretching the Paladin mold to suit other gods. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 19 Oct 2004 04:00 AM |
| But there's value in stretching the Champion of Torm to suit other gods? |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 19 Oct 2004 05:21 AM |
Dont know much about it, but yeah to some extent I would agree.
[Edit: And stop it. Thats twice I've agreed with you today. And no more.] |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 19 Oct 2004 05:49 AM |
However, MY point is simple:
By that way of speaking, you defined a Lawful Good paladin. However, being in favor of the variant rules(which unfortunently, do not exist in NwN), I don't believe that all paladins are LG paladins.
When I said "By definition", I did mean.. I looked up the definition of what a "Paladin" is.
According to Encarta, a Paladin is a Medieval Champion, or Champion of a Cause
According to Merriam Webster, a Paladin is A trusted Military Leader, or A leading Champion of a cause.
According to Yahoo! Dictionary(American Heritage), a paladin is a heroic champion, a strong supporter or defender of a cause
All the rest I checked said the same thing as one of the above.
Now, what you're *mistaking* a Paladin for is a Knight. Yes, Lawful Good paladins are typically Knights. This is undisputed, and the most common type. When Knighted, one takes on a set of codes he follows. You're mixing the two terms, which are.. well.. not the same.
A paladin is merely a champion to a cause. It makes perfect sense to me that each god would have his own breed of Paladin. However, due to game mechanic limitations, the only type of paladin in this one would be the Lawful Good Knight type. |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
|
|
|
|
Re: WTB: Paladin who isn't a Midorite, paying well..
Posted: 19 Oct 2004 06:04 AM |
All your definitions are RL definitions. A paladin in fantasy is so much more.
They absolutely are the ultimate paradigms of goodliness and law. The expectations that -should- be upon them in most rp environs are very, very strict...Vives actually allows them to get away with more than -any- other rp society I have ever belonged to.
There is a reason a paladin has to be lawful IG. And loses his paladinhood if not. A CG paladin might use the name paladin, but in truth is anything but. Simply because they would not hold devotedly to the oaths and vows they have to take as a paladin.
I played a paladin for over a year in an LRP system. And I went through hell trying to balance my goodly nature and my adherence to the law. They are a tough class, you wouldnt believe how tough if played and DM'd properly.
But in essence they -are- the archetypal knight, everything the knights of the round table were supposed to be and then more, a shining example to all around them. They eschew material possessions, they place the lives of others before their own, they are willing to sacrifice everything for their ideals.
Not perfect maybe, hold some flaws maybe...but they have to be able to hold to their code and live to the ideal.
As for paladins in Vives all following Midoran. There are very good reasons for this. And they are IG reasons that make a -lot- of sense. But as with all things it takes some effort and devotion to find answers as to why this is the case.
"paladins swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness." - straight from the 3rd Edition PHB.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
|
|
|