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A moan about CNR
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 10:55 AM |
Ok, for once I'll be as brief as I can. Here is why CNR to me is not what it could be.
So Evar wants to become an enchanter, which given his level of sorcery seems a fair enough career objective. So what does he need to enchant a nice fine gem:
Well First he needs a nice fine gem, which requires the mineral, the cutting and the polishing, that in turn requires the making of the polishing oil (which is where Evar is lucky because Luther gives him some). Ok so lets put all this to one side for a moment.
Now of course we need the enchanting oil. That requires tallow oil and holywater. Ok the holy water, thats not a problem so long as I can get some vials from someone (which of course I can just find some hides and keep the vials left over from curing them).
Ok, so all we really need is tallow oil then. So what do I need for that, not a lot, just a flask and some animal meat. Ok, so despite wanting to be an enchanter, we now have a side line in tinkering to make the glasses right. Ok, so what do we need for the. Well 2 glass ingots, which in turn require 2 bags of sand. So 4 bags of sand. Well we have to equate for failure, and so I need about 4 flasks so thats 32 bags of sand. That wont take long. Half and hour?
Ok, now we have the 4 flasks (and luckily didnt fail making any of the flasks from the ingots). Ok now we need the meet. We're in Buckshire lets go by a knife. Nothing in Buckshire. Lets go to Port Royale. Nothing there either. Ok, lets go to Midor and back. Ok finally get the knife. Another half hour. Lets get the meat. Not too long there's animals around. 15 minutes. Ok, so now we have our flasks, we have our meat (4 lots of).
Lets go to Port and make our Tallow oil. Ok 40% chance 1 - 2 potions? Nope 0
So after an hour and quater I have no tallow oil and I still have all the other stages to go through to make an enchanted item.
Ok, this hasnt been brief, but there's a good reason for that. Ok, is it the length of time to make an item thats the problem here?
Not really otherwise everyone to do it. Its that there was absolutely no challenge, no RP and no gaming in any of what I described.
Anyway, just my little rant (for which I offer an apology for) but I've just wasted a great deal of time, for not a lot. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 12:39 PM |
Yup, unfortunately that is the way that CNR is.
the idea behind CNR is to work with others to get the stuff you need.
If there are not enough people doing CNR, it gets harder to get the stuff you need. As a result you will end up doing all the little things yourself.
Stick with it, and eventually you will be skilled in the areas you need to continue doing the craft you really want to do.
Otherwise, hire someone, or get an apprentice to do the drudge work for you.
- Paul
PS: and sometimes the odds are against you. e.g. 65% chance of success, 10 attempts, 2 successes....grrrrr! |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 12:55 PM |
| Or get down on your knees and ask Elvalia, she can make all the empty flasks and tallow oil you need |
Elvalia - Chosen of Aros
Elrith Mellin
Perin - 'Cleric (an' drewid) o' Elbreff' Weddin's an' pies a speciarality
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 01:04 PM |
| Also remember that enchanting is probably the most sought after craft as many comparatively highly enchanted things can be made, given that in Vives theres a limit on magic items it seems a tad silly for it to be even remotely easy. But as Luther said, CNR is all about teamwork and getting others to make part of the components for you, I guess here is where the RP comes in finding suppliers of the materials you need.I guess its also a lot easier if you start small and work your way up. After all doesnt it feel better if you earn it? ;+) |
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 02:03 PM |
| collecting ingredients can be a challenge and invovles co-ordination (teamwork) which yields RP, and making the finished product is gaming. what's the confusion? |
"PLEASE!!! Bury me with it!" |
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 02:15 PM |
| Absolutely right Gene, trips after the rarer materials can be great fun in themselves |
Elvalia - Chosen of Aros
Elrith Mellin
Perin - 'Cleric (an' drewid) o' Elbreff' Weddin's an' pies a speciarality
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 06:20 AM |
I take on board what each of you said. To be honest it was a tad unconstructive in that I wrote it too soon after the point at which I was not too happy.
However, what I still would like to see, is a more PC related to challenge (rather than pure statistics based on your character) to acquire the basics of CNR as otherwise this will put new players off doing it (which creates the problem of not enough people doing the CNR).
I dont want to see CNR become easy (especially for enchanting) but I would like to see the challenge PC based.
Nevertheless expect Evar to be bothering you all soon. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 07:20 AM |
Ok,
what I still would like to see, is a more PC related to challenge (rather than pure statistics based on your character) to acquire the basics of CNR
Can you explain that for me? With examples of what you think would make it different?
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 07:40 AM |
I'm not a hundred percent sure of how to achieve it, so I will give an example of the kind of thing I mean, but it is just an example.
The premise, of my point is that CNR is not in the main a challenge to the player. People have expressed that it should be difficult (and I agree) but the difficulty is based on a random number generation compared against a character statistic. Other than fetching stuff there is no challange to the PC.
What I would like to see is a better chance of success on a statistic base (which effectively makes it easier to the character) and the overal difficulty compensated by making a challenge for a PC.
My example for doing this, is that at least at the lower ends, the recipes be anonymised and the PCs have to do perhaps a static quest to discover the ingredients or RP an apprentiship with someone.
That to me has the benefit of keeping it difficult but most of the challenge being PC based as opposed to stats based. It essentially comes back to the old DnD PnP concept of not having too much reliance on dice roles as thats not gaming nor RPing.
There can perhaps be otherways but I see absolutely no value whatsoever in making it really difficult for a new player to CNR by a statistic to create truly mundane items. I know the experienced people have pushed through that kind of stage and see the otherside, but even conceptually I think its better to create a PC challenge when the reward (i.e. when you can push through) is so far off.
This way, people have an immediate incentive to participate at both ends of the scale. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 12:10 PM |
I need to look at the CNR system in more detail. From what I see, it would involve a significant amount of recoding to do what you are asking.
At the moment, it appears to be an either / or affair. Either you see the recipies or you do not.
My first priority is to get the recipies right, and the list of things that can be created to be "right". Once that is done, then I will have the time to look at how such a thing could be implemented.
I warn you, it will be a ways off.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 12:20 PM |
I've just had a thought
I think it might not be too hard to change it so that if you put in many items, you will get a % of them back, rather than doing an all or nothing affair.
so, if you have a 60% chance of success, and you put in enough to create 10 items, you will get 6 back.
I think this would make things a little easier. I'll look into that.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 02:00 PM |
That would certainly make things much easier I would agree.
Im not sure whether I made an earlier suggestion clear or not, so I'll just clarify. I think that items should be anonymised completely. The way a PC finds out is through quests/ apprentiships. The PC then makes a note and the option comes up when they place the right items in the boxes.
I do of course appreciate that such a change would be way off as I do understand the bigger changes with greater priority that are in the making.
Can I just say, because Im not sure if any PCs have said this (Im sure the DMs have) but I think we owe a great deal of thanks to PD. From what I understand he has put in a lot of hard work to help Ara with the toolset. So thanks PD. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: A moan about CNR
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 02:16 PM |
I haven't done squat yet. Just a couple of minor fixes and lots of grandiose plans.
I'll let you know when I do something important.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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