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arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 06:24 AM |
| I want to request that arcane archers be given full use of the Latonai Oak House--we would seem to have a natural affinity with the rangers and druids, and it would certainly help with the already ponderous process of bow and arrow-making. |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 07:29 AM |
Then fighters who use bows aswell, and offcourse barbarians and mages and monks...ect.
Anyway, you get the idea.
Any other class can use bows aswell.
Its a Nature things if you ask me, but its something the devs must fiz |
Long Live the Fighters!
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 08:40 AM |
Maybe it the oak house location..then Artinam...Forests there are pleanty, and like you said Rangers are like any other fighter, they can use a bow like they can use a dagger or a sword. So why have the special place that should be helded to the one who devote their entire live to bowering? And not refering that it is Near Ferein and "most" AAs are elfs, being the bow usually the prefered weapon of the elven kind. I can understand Avaris point, cant understand your answer though....
If you had any idea of the hard work any bowcrafter has to do to obtain any bow or arrows...Specially that the work never ends since arrows must be made all the time, we can use more then 400 arrows in a tour...
And to the fighters who use their bows to sport...I'll said this, you all got bows very special ones very easily, from now on thats over, if it depends on me. And since at the moment Im the only one able to make the Tiatnium bows, non archer PCs, will not get any bow above silver... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 09:02 AM |
I perhaps was a bit blunt, my apologies I had a bad day.
What I meant was, the latonei treehouse sells every kind of item for nature.
Its about a special place for them, I believe other classes have these *strongholds* as well.
The Mages have the Ka'azim Tower.
What I also meant is, if we allow Arcane archers, which in theory have nothing to do with devotion to Nature, offcourse you have to be Elf to be an arcane archer.
Anyway then any other classes like a Monk should have acces aswell.
Again my apologies. |
Long Live the Fighters!
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 09:29 AM |
JUst to put a spin on things, I'll throw in several disjointed and most likely unlrelated opinions, loosely researched facts, and random viewpoints:
** It needs to work both ways. That is, if those of Ferein are to have use of the Oak, then the Rangers of Latonei require equivalent access to class/race specfic area(s) in Ferein. The druids can sit on a stump in Mystic Woods for all I care. I'm not certain they belong at the Oak anyway.
** Rangers "traditionally" are human. An old, probably outdated definition of the class was a human or possibly half-elven or (very remotely) possibly half-orc who's task was to keep the travel lanes open and safe, and to defend the borders of humankind from barbaric encroachment. There is no nature loving tree-hugging requirement here. They are well trained in woodcraft and forest lore, because they live on the edge of civilization or beyond. They are not martial cousins to Druids. They do not even have to be aligned with protection of druids, though any ranger that walks the deep woods would be a fool not have a druid or two on his/her good side.
**Rangers are the epitome of bow training. For elves, proficiency with a bow may come naturally. Rangers work hard at it. An Elven Ranger of course is welcome at the Oak
** Arcane Archers are warriors with arcane magic abilities. Aside from the racial requirement there is not inherent indication of any sort of commune with nature or woodcraft.
**To Ch'ang: 400 arrows a session? Slacker. Find Ronan IG sometime. He needs a small team of specialist fletchers to keep him in arrows. He can probaably make Titanium bows as well, if he wasn't so challenged just to survive a trip to get iron, much less Titanium :p
** Rumours and lies abound that Latonei will be further developed in the future. I for one look forward to it.
**It makes sense for Ferein and Latonei to each have available full resources and equipment to make bows. Ferein for the Elves and Latonei for Rangers of all sorts. Maybe even Half-Orc Rangers. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 10:26 AM |
Good idea a Half-Orc one...mmmh.
Anyhow, it was true that in BG1 only Humans, and Half-Elf(perhaps Elfs aswell) could become rangers.
But except in Pnp they have no exceptional skill in it, then any other fighter would have...
Anyway peace.. |
Long Live the Fighters!
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 12:18 PM |
It seems to me that Arcane Archers are more akin to the Tel'Elena in Ferein than to the Rangers who patrol Latonei. Maybe they should be considered Tel'Elena guardians and an elite corps within Ferein's forces. On that basis they could be granted access to and space within the Tel'Elena temple of Ferein Inner City. I would expect many of the facilities necessary for the crafting of bows and arrows - maybe even enchanting - would be found in the home of Ferein's arcane defenders. Aros does love his children, and it is the Arcane Archer that most closely represents the ideals articulated by the divine archer himself.
Oh, and Rangers do have a special connection to nature. They are its defenders and loremasters. This does not mean they are just fighting druids. A ranger's relationship to the forests is one of love, admiration, and understanding - a partnership. The druid in many ways becomes the wild, adopting its powers and tying their life forces together - more like a true union. I don't know what the players handbook and bioware say about such things. This is just how I see things in Vives.
Thanks all : ) |
Alarwen Emeria - Patience and time...
Ranger/Sorc/AA
Jessminda (companion) |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 12:21 PM |
I'd have to agree with Aeiser/Artinam on this one. The Latonie Oak clubhouse is specific in its membership, those that specialize in eeking a living out of the wilderness. Barbarians would be sooner accepted than an arcane archer as archers, by themselves, do not meet that requirement.
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~Alosynth
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 12:37 PM |
I am going to put crafting things in Ferein proper, including whatever is needed for bowyering and fletchering. In fact, its partially done, but I have been busy with my move. Hopefully, these changes will allow elven crafters to practice their craft where it should be practiced, but nothing is happeneing in the next few days to week, before I move, get rehooked to the internet and unpack.
In my mind, arcane archers are quite different from rangers. To me, rangers have always been the fighters of the elves. In that sense, I have drawn a distinction, in my mind, between the typical elf, who I see as a ranger, in the sense of simply fighting better in the wild, and the actual ranger, be they elf or not, who takes on a role of protecting wild areas for and from travellers.
Arcane archers are a whole other sort, imo. When they originally came out, silly me, I imagined they would be wizards who extended their arcana to their bows. I had not imagined that the primary AA would be fighter/ 1-2 lvl wizard/ AA. Though, having said that, I think we have some unique arcane archers in Víves.
Anyway, I guess my point is that while I see elven rangers (in the true sense) as being protectors of the borders, scouts and protectors of the wild, I see AA has elite fighters.
This borders on rambling, my apologies.
Suffice to say, I am working on putting in the crafting things in Ferein for elves. In addition, I have something specific for AA that I hope to put in. The latonei oakhouse is a safehouse for rangers. |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 12:47 PM |
I'm sorry the above was so rambling. Here is something to chew on:
"...arcane archers often lead units of normal archers or form small, elite units formed entirely of arcane archers. These units are one of the prime reasons elves are so feared in battle."
-DMG 3.0
Rangers, on the other hand, might also form small bands, for advanced scouting or a tactical sort of mission.
Fundamentally, the two classes differ, as the rangers function as protectors, for the most part, whilst the AA function as the reason you do not mess with elves, amongst a few others 
 |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 03:24 PM |
**Rangers are the epitome of bow training. For elves, proficiency with a bow may come naturally. Rangers work hard at it. An Elven Ranger of course is welcome at the Oak
** Arcane Archers are warriors with arcane magic abilities. Aside from the racial requirement there is not inherent indication of any sort of commune with nature or woodcraft.
**It makes sense for Ferein and Latonei to each have available full resources and equipment to make bows. Ferein for the Elves and Latonei for Rangers of all sorts. Maybe even Half-Orc Rangers
So Aesir let me see...
Arcane Archers the elite the best with the bows aside their race theres no indication of any sort of commune with woodcraft?
I would think elfs would be the best in bowcrafting, specially if they have the power to magically enchant their weapons, bows and arrows.... So I do think AAs have all more then any other class to work in woodcraft. On the other hand, Ranger were never the ones who used more BOWS, they are usually seem with daggers and swords, some with bows yes but not like you say a class that devotes anything to bowering...
Course it makes sence Elfs specially AAs would have the required resources for this craft much more then other races/classes, dwarves have easier contact with mining, its not strange to see there expertise is weapon and armor crafting.
I think the Oak house is a ranger place periode. though that location with the crafting resources and tools, seems much more to be an elfs AA thing then a ranger thing, Its close to ferein in a mistical wood. The only real conection I see with the rangers its that it is in the woods....
Now a half-orc ranger? I dont know why but has safekeepers of lore, and experts in surviving in the woods with lots of things to learn and train, I would think a creature with the brain of a rat wouldnt be able to do this...but ey there always can apear a smart orc in the midle of the beasts, he would proly be killed but that another subject. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 04:37 PM |
Ch'ang: The term "woodcraft" used in my post does not equal "Wood Crafting" in the CNR system implemented in Vives. I speak nothing of making bows.
Woodcraft or wood-craft is the set of skills required to survive (or prosper) in wilderness environments.
This probably removes the need for the balance of your response. I do not deny Ferein should have a bow factory. I do suggest that perhaps Latonei is not the appropriate place. It's Strand's Stand in the local Ranger parlance.
I do stand by my statement... reinforced with Narenia's post from the PnP description. Arcane archers have no inherent commune with nature other than what is implied by their elf-hood. They are one step away from pure warrior/wizard. In game terms, it's the ranger that gets "Wilderness Lore" and the bonuses to hide/move silent in wilderness settings, for example. It's the ranger that gets some non-arcane "spells" to cast to aid in primarily outdoor situations and to help provide some minimal self-sufficiency in those environments. My interpretation is that an Arcane Archers is a warrior that studies Evocation magic to provide magically enhanced ranged fighting capabilities. It could have just as easily been Arcane Longswordsmen (longswordselves?) but Arcane Archer sounds better - and yes, elves are associated more with bows. Even more than bows, elves are associated with the arcane - and Arcane is what an Arcane Archer is - before they are archer.
re: the half-orc ranger... some orcs are closer to their human side than others. I myself think it's a rare occurence to find a half-orc willing to defend the borders of human civilization. The early interpretation of the ranger class in D&D, iirc was that Rangers were human-centric. The point of their existence was to watch the borders of human civilization. Few half-elves and fewer half-orcs would be so inclined.
All this said... I think Narenia has indicated the better solution is forthcoming - that is.. Ferein gets the infrastructure to make bows and such, as well as beefing up Latonei a bit. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 05:10 PM |
| hee hee My whole original post was made so as not to ask for something to be produced that wasnt already there, based partly on how few arcane archers are active anymore. What I'd really like to see is one public-use carpenter's bench outside of the Oakhouse, but things like that seem to be long in coming. And yes Narenia's solution is better but much more time-consuming for the builders. I further believe that if there'd been a vote taken among the player-elves, a more practical crafting place and a real and functional inn in Ferein would have taken precedence over the creation of the beautiful, but not all that useful, inner city. I do think on Vives that the arcane archers tended to view themselves as protectors of Ferein and somewhat akin to rangers for Aros in that regard---so I was speaking as a Vives arcane archer and not an NWN one----and perhaps dont really know the motivations of the other archers as well as I think I do. Actually a solution I really like to the bow-crafting problem is to make the weight of branches needed to produce useful items go down as one's wood-crafting becomes greater, but I'm not sure that level of "realism" is really neccessary. |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 05:21 PM |
| I do think, Oak house atm is THE PLACE for woodcraft has Bow crafting, it has the resources (trees) and the tool, benchs etc... I think AAs should get a place at least with the same resources, I think it is easy to see if the elven society, loves bows, they would have mahogany trees and other types withing their borders and cities, trees that they love and care for using them in their art. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 05:34 PM |
Just a couple other little tidbits of information:
Half-orcs of M'gok Tukar are very much a Barabarious tribe, eeking their living out their surrounding wild environment. It would be unsuprising that several of the more intellegent kin would hone the wild-lore to the point of ranger-hood.
Their have been drastic changes to the ranger class in the 3.5ed ruleset that are very interesting. One is that they can have one of two disparate weapon specializations, either Archery or two-weapon combat. Allowing the Ranger to become an incredibly skilled in the use of the bow that he might rival an Arcane Archer in bow mastery.
You can read about it in the SRD of the 3.5ed rules (under classes II) |
~Alosynth
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 05:41 PM |
They also get HIPS at lvl 17.
Rangers have always fought with diversity. Bows when needed, swords and knives when needed. Traps. They use their wisdom to avoid fights, and their intelligence to outsmart their enemy. |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 25 May 2004 06:04 PM |
| Well yes..but that doesnt aply to NwN... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 01:23 AM |
Ok. I was going to hold off on asking about this.. but yes, now that the cat's out...
HIPS at L17 shows up as a class feat for Rangers in the "Official Strategy Guide" for HotU. What would it take to get that implemented in Vives? I assume HIPS is treated internally as either a feat or a spell, both of which could be applied to an object (like the Wilderness Lore widget) or as a text macro (like /track) perhaps. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 01:37 AM |
The official strategy guide to HotU apparently thought that nwn uses 3.5 rules. There class info is all wrong. The ranger they describe is 3.5 and not nwn.
Based on the blatant abuse of HIPS, which is not supposed to work in the middle of a plain in bright daylight, esp. after a creature has seen you, my guess would it would take a minor miracle.
In other words, the nwn HIPS is not the phb HIPS. You are supposed to be able to hide if within 10 feet of a shadow (not your own).
I like the 3.5 changes to the ranger class. |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 01:39 AM |
| Just read the SRD, and HIPS use for rangers is limited in outdoor settings. This could be coded based on the tileset in use, just like the Wilderness Lore feat (I think that's the name, it's the feat where the ranger gets a +2 bonus to hide/MS, iirc). They also get Evasion at 9th level. I can't recall just now if that's in NWN or not. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 02:04 AM |
Affraid no evasion for us.
Just the Light version of Ambi dexterity and 2 weapon fighting.
Later the racial enemys, the animal compagnion(weaker then druids), advanced 2 weapon fighting,
That's it. |
Long Live the Fighters!
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 02:21 AM |
Just read the SRD, and HIPS use for rangers is limited in outdoor settings. This could be coded based on the tileset in use, just like the Wilderness Lore feat (I think that's the name, it's the feat where the ranger gets a +2 bonus to hide/MS, iirc). They also get Evasion at 9th level. I can't recall just now if that's in NWN or not.
In my opinion....
I'd rather fall on a bloody sword than give any more classes that blatently and stupidly overpowered feat.
But that's just me..... ;)
-Barnas |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 04:32 AM |
The think I really dislike about HIPS is that of all the players I've seen take it, (and I've never met one in Vives so I'm not speaking of them) is that it's never roleplayed. People just say, "it just means that I'm really good at hiding." No... it doesn't. I MEANS that you have a supernatural understanding/affiliation with shadows and (probably) the shadow plane.
If you take levels in Shadowdancer, it means you have some kind of knowledge or ability above and beyond that of normal people. It's not just a trick. You can't create intelligent shadow fiends out of shadow with a trick. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 04:37 AM |
*thinks*
maybe the way to solve SD is to change the .tlk file so you will only gain HIPS at lvl 3 or 5 or something like that..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: arcane archers
Posted: 26 May 2004 05:15 AM |
Ok this view is one of the principal reasons I had initially for not taking extra lvls of Shadow Dancer. The perception that it means you have a strong link with the shadow plane / negative plane / undeath / shadow fiends. Thats not what my character is about in the slightest, as hopefully anyone who knows Sirac would attest. It states for the prestige class that as many SD's are goodly as evil, what goodly character would develop that link? Few if any. Never mind the fact these planes are not even meant to exist in Vives. Sirac has killed shadows summoned by other chars on sight...and the idea of a goodly SD summoning such has taken a bit of thought for me.
But Sirac -is- a high level rogue whose b/grd is such that he has spent virtually his entire life having to be quick on his feet, and able to hide to avoid being killed.
Once he attained a fairly high level he took SD and got HIPS, in my view a natural extension of this lifelong practise. He has a basic understanding of the arcane as his best friend is a mage, and has used that understanding to develop a near supernatural ability to hide when threatened. But he is first and foremost a rogue who is 'really good at hiding'. In the same way as the things a high level warrior can do with a sword are dang near supernatural, or would appear so to others, its the same with a high lvl rogue disappearing into the shadows. Sirac's aware IC he can kind of call the shadows to him to hide now, rather than seeking them out, but tell him he is using negative energy or some sort of bond with the undead and he would tell you to...umm, get lost...if he was feeling polite! :0) As far as he's concerned its just the result of a smattering of arcane knowledge and, moreso, a lifetime of practice...a combination of exceptional skill at hiding and some illusion and misdirection.
I think the problem lies with chars that are not high lvl rogues that take SD lvls. Personally I think a rule stating that you must be at least 10th lvl rogue before taking SD would have made sense. So it becomes an ability like Crippling Strike or Slippery Mind, a real rogue specialist ability.
Rogues at high lvl are not as potent as wizards or clerics, good in a group but much less able to solo. At least in my experience. Sirac (17th lvl) still gets the crap beaten out of him by ettins in a stand up fight. HIPS evens that up a lot. But its like many abilities, aimed at one specific class but when taken by others becomes incredibly potent.
As for the creating intelligent shadow fiends POV, thats not the only way this ability can be interpreted. In my case the shadow being is not going to be something Sirac creates or has anything to do with the appearance of. More than that falls under FOIG...
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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