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Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:30 PM |
I want to point out that the way Arcane casters (and likely divine, though i have no experience there) are rewarded XP for casting tends to contribute to bad playing and exploitation on Vives... at least I have felt this way, and I expect others as well.
I have caught myself, knowing my character is going into danger, still waiting to fire off most of her buffs until combat is engaged. Why? Because XP comes only when you cast in combat. Would my character do this? No, she would be as well prepared as possible before facing the enemy. After struggling with this for a bit, I have decided that Im just not going to pursue XP for casting, even if it is the characters main source of XP. My characters are just going to have to find another way. Sure, this is going to stunt their growth, but I do not feel right doing things that are out of character just because they make me level.
The way the system works right now, it also pays dividends to caster players who go find a weak opponent and cast an assortment of spells that they seldom use (thereby harvesting more XP), which the character would never do! This is not good.
I bet a lot of abuse going on in Vives stems from this. Casters are in a hard place. They really do gain XP much slower than others (Vaisha easily brings in x2 or more XP than her sisters... even more now that I enforce all actions being in character). I think that if the XP rewards for casting could be reworked to avoid tempting players to the dark side, it would really make things better for all of us. The goal here is for us all to have fun.. Players and DM's alike. It's not fun if players feel pushed to exploit, and its not fun if DM's have to be enforcers instead of storytellers.
I'm trying to think of ways this might be accomplished. If anyone has any suggestions, please post here.
Thanks for listening. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:44 PM |
Hehe funny that you mention this. :)
The original system gave you xp for spells no matter where you cast them. Because apparently some players did abuse this system (oooh look a chicken, lets cast confusion on it!), it was changed into the current one.
I.e. you get xp for the first spell you cast out of combat and then nothing for the next 2' I think (well I think between 1 and 2'). And yes you get xp for each spell you cast in combat, whether slaying, buffing or summoning.
Consider this: my character Xaranthir is a high level wizard, I assure you I won't cast his buffing spells in the midst of combat, unless I'm surprised of course. I hardly even cast slaying spells, preferring for him to stay invisible, while a summoned creature does the combat. Ergo: I get xp for casting my first buff spell and killing the critters that are on my way wherever I want to go.
If someone casts all his or her buff spells in combat, more power to them I would say. I prefer to not get hit or take damage. Staying alive prevails over xp. ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:52 PM |
The point is though, the character isnt going to choose to cast the spells in combat if they can do it before. Only the player would do that, and only so they can get more XP. All I can say to that is, its a much better game if all the players are inside their characters heads, instead of making rule calculations.
You mention X is a high level wizard. Did he gain all those levels under the current XP system? Or did he pick up many in the prior system you mentioned? Just curious. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 04:31 PM |
I agree with your prior statements. Why do you think X casts all his protections -before- going somewhere? He didn't get to be high level by being stupid and casting buff spells in combat when he could get hit. No thank you. He wants to stay alive. I rather get 3 xp for one spell and nothing for the rest and stay alive, than trying to get 20 and getting whacked. ;)
Hmmm let me think now... I think he was around level 10 when the rule changed (ok might have been 11).
I've been around since... August or so 2003. So I 'profited' from the higher crafting skill xp that was available then as well. But go to the dirtnap list and check Dias Ashfield (in game he has another name now, but that's IC knowledge ). I must have something over 900 hours now, more or less. He's level 21 wizard / level 2 cleric. So aye, fairly high level.
So I did get the last 12 or 13 in the 'new' system. ;)
I progress at a very slow rate, but I don't mind. I've never liked skyrocketing up, certainly not at the higher levels. I like to get to level 7 or so rather fast-ish, but after that... let time do the rest. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 04:50 PM |
It's not fun if players feel pushed to exploit, and its not fun if DM's have to be enforcers instead of storytellers.
If I could ask a question, it would be, "why is it that, because it is possible to exploit a system, that means players feel pushed to exploit it?"
I will grant you that, whenever possible, systems and rewards should be as "bulletproof" as possible. However, I also want to point out that every system that has ever been designed, and every reward that has ever been devised, has in it somewhere the possibility of exploitation.
It is, honestly, very easy to exploit exploration XP. It is very easy to exploit spellcasting XP. It is very easy to exploit combat XP. People can even exploit DM given RP XP if they try hard enough, and that's not even an unmonitored automatic system. Don't even get me started on the countless ways the NWN engine as is can be exploited (or, do: Re-rolling for max HP, using PC object clipping to bump people through plot doors, 19/1 Sorc/pally builds, ugly little circular logic loops in the familiar dialogues, and and and...)
But I'm not sure I see the connection between "possible to choose to exploit" and "are compelled to or will always exploit".
Is there a point at which the designer of a system can say, "the system works as intended, now don't exploit it" and be able to trust that people will choose not to exploit it? Is there a point at which exploiting a facet of the mechanics moves from being the responsibility of the designer and becomes the responsibility of the exploiter?
If you are saying that arcane spellcasters advance more slowly than other classes unless they exploit, well.... I'm not sure that is the case, or has as much to do with Vives' system as it does with the actual intent of DnD class mechanics.
Let me run an idea past you. I'll preface it by saying it is NOT my opinion, and is NOT at ALL up for discussion for implementation by the team. This is PURE rhetoric on my part....
"Clasically" in DnD, there is NO xp gain for using the skills your class provides you. There is NO xp gain for spellcasting. There is NO xp gain for exploration. XP comes from exactly two sources, fighting monsters and roleplay awards from the DM. Many many servers out there, servers that consider themselves RolePlay Servers, would be horrified at the concept that a PC could just run around in circles talking to no one and doing nothing, and still get to second, or third, or fourth level. Why should you visiting Port Royale for the first time make you a better Monk? Why should casting a spell you already know how to cast make you able to cast a spell you haven't ever cast? Why should picking a lock give you an extra 1d6 of HP or a +1 to BAB?
The answer, I think, is because it is fun and satisfying that it does so. I certainly prefer a system, such as Vives has, that rewards people for being who they are and rewards people for exploring the world. But I don't understand how someone figuring out that if they cast all their spells in a specific sequence at a specific time in a specific order it will give them 15% more xp gain over time than if they didn't do that suddenly means that the system is forcing people to be bad roleplayers.
Should we take the system out? Should we alter it (as has been done in the past) and then don't tell people how we've altered it? Should we increase the percentages of all xp gain for all actions for arcane spellcasting classes so they can level up faster?
Also, and please don't take this as me calling you out, but speaking as a DM, with total disregard to Vives specifically and just speaking generally of my experiences DM'ing a variety of rulesets in a variety of situations, I have trouble with the arguement that:
After struggling with this for a bit, I have decided that Im just not going to pursue XP for casting, even if it is the characters main source of XP. My characters are just going to have to find another way. Sure, this is going to stunt their growth, but I do not feel right doing things that are out of character just because they make me level.
Why differentiate between the xp your character has and their growth? Why say it doesn't feel right doing OOC things to get levels but qualify that with the statement that unless you exploit a system to gain more xp your characters will be "stunted"?
Maybe the question that should be put to the community is: "How fast should each character class, and every conceivable combination of character classes, level up?" Let me add to that that it is very easy for DM's to track exactly how many XP points a given PC gains, even to get it reported on a per-hour basis.
What if I were to say that the average XP-gain-per-hour for a Monk was 400xp, and the average XP-gain-per-hour for a Cleric was 200xp, and the average XP-gain-per-hour for a Sorceror/Rogue was 275xp? (Please don't take this as hard numbers, they are not. I am making them up.) Does this mean, to the community of Vives, that Monks are more fun to play? Does it mean that Clerics need to be given more xp? Does it mean that Sorceror/Rogues need to be nerfed?
I think that your question about exploiting could open up a really great dialogue in the community about EXPECTATION OF REWARD. Which would be beneficial. I will also, however, warn that player expectation of reward and DM expectation of reward rarely coincide, and that it has been my experience that games/DMs who have tried to go too far to EITHER extreme have quickly been ruined. (DAOC, anyone?)
-- Figleaf |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 05:21 PM |
If I could ask a question, it would be, "why is it that, because it is possible to exploit a system, that means players feel pushed to exploit it?"
Ok, I can't answer this for anyone else but myself, but here is why I have felt this way:
What I originally wanted to do with the 3 sisters is keep their play time and advancement roughly equal. The thought was, this would make it easier to advance their storyline. The problem I encountered was that, the warrior of the 3 massively outstrips the other 2 in XP gain. In fact, every time i turn around it seems she has leveled again (and certainly with no attempt to do so on my part). She easily has more XP than the other 2 sisters combined, even though, for example, she is the only one of the 3 that hasnt received RP rewards, and she is the only one of the 3 that has taken a respawn XP hit.
What I have done is rethink my goals for the characters. Vaisha is going to leave the other 2 in the dust because she uses a sword instead of spells... fine. I have accepted this fact. The reason I posted this in the first place is to point out what might be causing poor behavior in other players, for whatever reasons they may have. Maybe they cant keep up with their regular associates, and feel they are no longer contributing to thier group? Whatever... I don't want to speculate. I just wanted to share my personal experiences with bad play and the system.
Before this sounds like I dont like the system, let me point out that I play in Vives because it's absolutely the best on-line RP to be had, anywhere. I am just trying to help make it even better, thats all.
If you are saying that arcane spellcasters advance more slowly than other classes unless they exploit, well.... I'm not sure that is the case, or has as much to do with Vives' system as it does with the actual intent of DnD class mechanics.
Yup. From what I've seen so far, that is the case. Maybe it changes later on? I don't know. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 05:29 PM |
Well, I am not the builder, and I cannot make any promises re: changing the system. What I can do is say I promise to make some arcane spellcaster PC's, and play them ingame WITHOUT exploiting, and then report to the rest of the team what my experience has been.
Here's another thought to mill over while I do that:
At level 20, who is more powerful a pure fighter or a pure wizard? Does relative power gain across levels balance out differences in rate of gain? (ie: If a wizard a level 20 is considered twice as "powerful" as a fighter at level 20, is it not reasonable to expect a wizard to level up half as fast?)
-- Figleaf |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 05:36 PM |
Well, I am not the builder, and I cannot make any promises re: changing the system. What I can do is say I promise to make some arcane spellcaster PC's, and play them ingame WITHOUT exploiting, and then report to the rest of the team what my experience has been.
Very cool. Thanks for caring.
At level 20, who is more powerful a pure fighter or a pure wizard? Does relative power gain across levels balance out differences in rate of gain?
Interesting point. But lets put a spin on it: At low level the fighter is deffinately the stronger of the 2, and gains levels like no tomorrow. Maybe the fighter should level slower at lower levels when he is the stronger, and the Wizard should level slower at high levels when he is the stronger? |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 06:24 PM |
I'll add this little bit of my own personal opinion. :)
I think I play the highest level wizard on the server. Considering the amount of time it took me to reach that level, it's safe to say (I think so at least) that a wizard doesn't level all that quickly. And you know what? I like it! It reflects indeed that a wizard needs to 'study' a lot. Ok sorcerers don't really study as it's in their blood, but that's something else.
Yes, I have seen new people join, and as they took one of the classes with a high combat xp modifier raise quickly. Some even *gasp* nearly reached my level in one third or a fourth the time I needed.
Quite frankly? I don't care. In the past days, barring two quests, I earned perhaps 50 xp an hour, if I got that much at all (today it's been 5 xp for an hour :P). It's simply in the way you play your character. Xaranthir isn't out on going on killing runs, he's more of a scholar.
Yes like Figleaf said, a wizard and other things are exploitable. But please do keep in mind: because something is doesn't mean you should. And sooner or later the DMs will find out anyway.
Do what everyone else does: roleplay and have fun! Stop worrying about how much xp you get from spell X, Y or Z. It detracts from the game (not for the players around you, but for yourself I mean). |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 06:30 PM |
Experience, in the roleplaying world can also be categorized as general "Knowledge". Why would a magician use his new spells and many spells on a creature too powerful for him too handle, when he could practice his skills on something he/she knew was more controllable. The XP gain should be lesser on weaker monsters obviously, because the learnin difficult of mastering mind control spells on an Orc, compared to that of something like a Giant brain, seems to prove quite sparse ;]
~Romulus, Gnomish Mage. |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 25 Mar 2004 07:02 PM |
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion up to now, I'm feeling better about the whole thing after reading your replies. I do believe that I've got the whole "need to advance class" (ie XP) thing out of my system now, so I can focus on advancing the character instead (ie story and RP). Its not about getting levels, its about having fun. How did I forget that?
See you in game! |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 26 Mar 2004 01:39 AM |
Kandaelis, you want to know something? I have the feeling that when you stop worrying about getting how much xp and where, that you level off faster.
Go write those stories and have fun! It may take a while, but no one said the path of a mage or cleric was easy. May you have tons of fun! (If not I'll come shovel a few into your direction ;P ) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 26 Mar 2004 11:58 AM |
| Yes, I've come to the same conclusion, just had a bad day at work yesterday I guess. I just posted my 4th little story, and heres hopeing my well of inspiration never runs dry! |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 26 Mar 2004 04:55 PM |
IMO it may be a fruitfull inclusion to allow an XP value upon the learning of a new spell into a characters spell book. Considering this involves the main aptitude of a wizards profession.
However, I do realise this would be unfair on Sorcerers who do not use this method in their learning of the weave. |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 26 Mar 2004 05:54 PM |
I'll keep saying it: don't change the xp system for wizards. Ok it takes longer to level than your average monk or fighter, but I think it's normal. One should be quicker to learn how to handle a sword than a wizard gets the incantantions right for a spell.
Changing the xp for one class, then will make things 'unfair' again for another. Fix one thing and unbalance another.
Consider the power mages and sorcerers wield. I'm not just talking, my mage can do 5000 points of damage a day (silly example here), but about what it would be like for that character to harness all these forces. Normal people would burst apart so to speak. I only find it logical they have a hard way to go. :)
But again this is only -my- opinion. ;)
Oh and there's no weave here I think, that's FR. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Arcane Magic, XP, and the dark side
Posted: 27 Mar 2004 01:08 AM |
(snip)
Oh and there's no weave here I think, that's FR.
(/ snip)
actually, it has been used IG by atleast one DM that I have seen -- of course that was also a plot line that involved a planar being, so take it with a grain of salt, given the decisions on planes (or lack thereof) in Vives
a description of the plot is here:
http://vives.dyndns.org/Vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=14171
-Sai Barris |
Sai Barris, Scamp-at-Large
Cynda LeRange, Reporter, Port Royale
Parson Droim Raine, Preacha o da Word o Swiftfoot |
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