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Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 06:34 AM |
Greetings once again my friends,
Well I would like to propose something most profain..
There are actions that can make your character more chaotic (no spoilers here for the new people), But (now hold on to something!).. ready? there are none to move you to lawful...OH MY! .. whatever shall we do..
I propose actions, quests, or tasks, that will .. move your alignment to lawful..*angels singing*. After thinking about this.. You aren't born lawful, you become lawful and in Vives, there's no actual way of becoming lawful or returning to lawfulness.. let's remedy this please.
Thank you for hearing me out
Nova Seclorum |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 07:55 AM |
| There is a way...And that by DM quests. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 09:46 AM |
| I see, but chaotic shifts can be of non-Dm given means.. there should be a balance. |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 10:29 AM |
So basically you want to be free to do all the chaotic things and reap the rewards of such, and then just skip off and tweak yourself back to lawful?
This is discussed in other threads, and it still smells to me. If you want to play a lawful character, don't do chaotic things. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 11:05 AM |
Landru, even lawful characters make mistakes, it is a fact of life and gaming. The issue here is that only the monks and Paladins are under threat of character destruction with no way of redress, how is that justified?
And there are mixed messages in the game here too. You can kill and loot the body of the assasin upstairs of the Crossed Cutlasses to complete candy's quest so that DOES in fact set a precedent for what happened in my case.
And do you really consider a 5 point shift, (the other point was due to another party member's actions) a reasonable response to mistakenly picking up an item as spoils of war after a fight to the death? |
Rutger_13
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Not all who wander are lost |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 11:37 AM |
There's a missed element here. Sometimes, due to -minor- player laxness, or even arguably no fault of their own, a PC's alignment can be -raped-.
An example would be Pickston switching Fri'el from N-50 to C-0.
They were partied in Icy Vale. Pickston goes off to get rations. Barnas gets out of seat and adjustcs cusions. Barnas turns back. Pickston has been stealing from Icy Vale store. Fri'el has taken a 50 point alignment shift.
Now; if that's not a case for DM action... it's been stated that it won't happen. However, I would try to put forward the opinion that in some rare cases it might be nescesary.
I would like to see a few lawful options in the one shot quests. Nothing dramatic, but a way to wean back one or two lost points.
-Barnas |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 11:49 AM |
Almost without exception Ive found that those few times I have had a problem in Vives, patiently explaining the situation to the dm's / builders and asking for help has resulted in the situation being dealt with swiftly and in a really friendly manner.
Im absolutely sure if I had a monk or paladin and it became unplayable, if the reasons why were understandable it would be dealt with in a similar manner.
So as long as that is the case there is surely no need for a system of gaining law points to be introduced...which just raises all sorts of issues. Just talk to the dm's privately. Ive never heard anyone say Ive lost my paladinhood and cant get it back by any means. Doubt that would be the case unless in an extreme circumstance.
At the very least Im sure if you 'fell from grace' then a dm run mission to re-deem yourself could be arranged...and make for some great rp in the process.
And be prepared for the fact you might have to work to get your status back...paladins and monks in PnP are very powerful because of their restrictions. Even though its through a fairly crap game mechanic in NWN that you get penalised...a little bit more work to progress is not so bad a penalty.
Just my tuppence worth... :0)
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 11:54 AM |
If you want to play a lawful character, don't do chaotic things.
I would agree, if only your own actions could change your alignment. But this is not the case. If someone lifts a few things out of your sight, it shouldnt bring an alignment change to your character, because he/she was in no way involved nor knowledgeable of the act.
If this is a limitation of the system, then I think some way to repair chaotic shift is required. As it stands now, a Paladin or Monk can lose the ability to continue on their path by no fault of their own, and they have no way to resolve it.
If you are going to allow for unlimited Good-Evil "pay for absolution", then why the predudice against Law-Chaos axis shift changes? I think it should be both or neither. Perhaps allow the characters to perform duties for the Midor courts... deliver documents or somesuch.
If it comes to light that someone is abusing the system.. well they need to be punished. But otherwise, I think the honor system is appropriate.. we are talking about Paladins and Monks here. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 12:43 PM |
I dont think you should have alignment shifts AT ALL for what someone else does. This is because it is too unpredicatable. Suppose I was with a thief when they steal from a store. If I dont see them do it, then I've done nothing wrong. If I do, what if I say "Hey put that back" and try and enforce it, does that make me the same as them?
Someone did point out that you are judged by the company you keep. True. But that doesnt mean the judgement is correct. Characters should be able to make their own judgement but since they dont get to see the alignment that is based on perception and not reality anyway. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 12:49 PM |
I'll just point out again that that isn't in the hands of Vives. Alignment shifts are hard coded by Bioware to go to all party members.
-Barnas |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 03:05 PM |
So basically you want to be free to do all the chaotic things and reap the rewards of such, and then just skip off and tweak yourself back to lawful?
This is discussed in other threads, and it still smells to me. If you want to play a lawful character, don't do chaotic things.
I most definaly do not... i currently play a character I had not planned on playing. I have sent in application days ago to play a different character. Other than for roleplay.. my Wizard/Cleric would have no adverse effects from any alignments shifts.. I just noticed that there are ways to turn chaotic but 'none' that allow one to become or repair a lawful status.
You all are thinking of this in a one sided manner. Suppose I am chaotic and a guard says a man has stolen some valuable art (or something), and is offering a sizable reward for it's return. Now this chaotic player would be very tempted to complete this quest.. and maybe any like it.. getting +5 shifts towards lawful..this would effect...
Bards
Barbarians
the opposite would affect:
Paladins
Monks
I am a strapping burly barbarian and i took the merchant's quest to return his widget of priceless value.. by bonk bonking the rogue.. I return the widget (looks terrible to me, and I have no sense of it's value), Oh man! I have moved towards lawful.. but I being good.. felt pitty on the merchant.. it was his only item for sale.. and his little girl was starving..welp.. that just put me in lawful good status.. hey lets take a level in Paladin.. since i can no longer be what my whole race is.. my whole family is.. a barbarian..
I am a Paladin, and the high lord tells me to go into the next room and return his box of loin cloths.. So i stroll into the next room and oops i forgot which box .. well shoots.. the red box or the blue box.. ahh red box.. *buzzzzz* nope.. Alignment shift!! and in worse cases you just lost Paladinhood.. or monkdom.. *heh*.. should have taken the blue pill er box..
Or say I am a Bard, and through life altering events (family wiped out, loved one dies, becomes ultra rich.. ect..) alignment shifts and takes on a new role as a monk, or a paladin, ect.. in the current settings.. this is practically impossible.. BUT the opposite is true..
A Monk or a paladin could become a bard, barbarian in mere minutes of clicking on a little box..and some xp fighting rats, or kobolds.. did the character learn anything about either class.. no.. did the character do "chaotic things" maybe.. but definately not life altering..
one's ethos shouldn't be switchable like night and day, but it should be balanced.
If you allow one direction, there should be the opposite. I myself dont' understand the argument for or against.. I just see there needs to be a balance if this exists..
The roleplay issues here are tremendous, I would assume. One's whole way of thinking is switched.. and shouldn't be taken as lightly as it is in vives, for instance, If i made a Monk and went and clicked on the Choas box upstairs in the Slaughtered dragon a few times.. my monk is now unusuable. Did my thinking change because i took 1 item then looked inside the box again a few times.. +5 shifts are suuposed to reserved, I believe for ARTIFACT level items or very drastic actions such as murder. not petty theft..
If you read up on Artifacts.. some great items move a characters alignment over the corse of a week when used (items of vecna come to mind).. +5 is too drastic a change.. and from what i hear.. +/- 50 is not that uncommon..
And the the poster above.. robbing someone is unlawful, but in the world, there are many things considered lawful.. but vives as it stands is one sided with regards to it's alignment rewards. making Choas more prevailant and rewarding (if you value gold and items)
Nova Seclorum |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 04:56 PM |
I'll just point out again that that isn't in the hands of Vives. Alignment shifts are hard coded by Bioware to go to all party members.
-Barnas
Didnt know that sorry. Equally have no idea what hard coding means but I presume it means its nigh-on-impossible to change.
If so, curses to bioware. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 04:56 PM |
I'll just point out again that that isn't in the hands of Vives. Alignment shifts are hard coded by Bioware to go to all party members.
-Barnas
Didnt know that sorry. Equally have no idea what hard coding means but I presume it means its nigh-on-impossible to change.
If so, curses to bioware. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 05:22 PM |
note quite true.. Alignment shifts are hardcoded in that they shift alignment, the amount and type can be changed and they are not coded into treasure, or looting boxes. by default. someone put those alignment shifting scripts there on purpose.. which makes sense.. but there should be a balance.. whatever the difficulty or task..
Remeber, this is just an opinion.. please dont take it out of context. This is something i would like to see, but by no means demanding it or complaining.. I should have posted this in the Wish List area.. my appologies..
Nova Seclorum |
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Re: Lawful actions & quests or lack there of
Posted: 17 Mar 2004 06:14 PM |
What is hard coded, or more, what is not easily possible, is for alignment changes to be only attributated to people that can see the person commiting the act. I believe (not 100%) that alignment changes could be applied to individule persons only, however, I believe it is better that the whole party suffers for the actions of one of its members, it forces you to be more careful of whom you party with.
As well, we do not want to see the ability for some one to wash, rinse, repeat some quest to become lawful. It is a purposefully difficult alignment to keep. If you are becoming to chaotic, either in danger of loosing your paladinhood/monkhood, or already lost said hoodness, you can let the DM's know, and they will keep an eye out for lawful behaviour that can be rewarded with a positive alignment shift, if they see it. |
~Alosynth
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