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Alignment Issues
Posted: 14 Mar 2004 03:05 PM |
First, I've never been satisfied with alignment as implemented in D&D - I see it as too flat, too two-dimensional, where evil is expected to be evil as in comic books and fairy tales. For example, if all evil people announced themselves as they would according to an alignment chart, I would assume that evil would have no chance to thrive, and the 'good' would have little to triumph over. Pretty boring - and certainly limiting - if you ask me.
That aside, there's a more specific issue with Vives' alignment implementation with respect to NPC quests.
I was informed by another player that there is no way to regain alignment shifts along the Law-Chaos axis. (this is relevant to Monks). I haven't played here long enough to know if I should care about that or not (it was the other person that is at risk of losing their lawful status, and thus their character template would be rendered worthless - excepting the RP opportunity).
However, what I do care about is the fact that this meta-knowledge has created a situation where veteran Vives' players - those that many have looked to for guidance as they've entered Vives - make in-game decisions based on this OOC tid-bit of information.
Example: Party groups are formed or disbanded not for in-game reasons (like a lawful character observing a chaotic deed - and confronting the chaotic offender), but for assumptions - later admitted to be mistaken - and concerns/fears that class status will be lost *if* another character in group does something to affect the party's alignment.
So, how to fix this?
1) The designers/devs/DMs need to agree that it's an issue. My idea of what's correct, isn't necessarily aligned with those in charge. If this is agreed as an issue worth addressing, then check the next points.
2) Balance the alignment affecting quests/adventures such that there's opportunity not only to lose good or lawful alignment points, but gain good or lawful alignment points. My understanding is that the only part that's missing now is that you cannot regain points lost along the Law-Chaos axis.
3) I'm on the fence myself about this point, but I'll throw it out there to see if it swims: Make party alignment shift *only* for those party members that actually witness the initiating action, i.e., the party member(s) affected by the action are in direct visible or audible range of the action. I don't know if this is technically feasible, but it probably is.
4) Communicate regularly and often to the player community that reactions in-game should be based solely on actions in-game. This is a broader topic, and I see that work has been done to alleviate this concern. But, my own opinion, is that if the even more veteran of Vives' players are playing in this deficient manner, that there's still some progress to be made.
To close, I'll say that I feel strongly about resolving this issue because I'm interested in the continuing success of Vives. There's a depth of content and detail I enjoy, and overall, the player community is talented, experienced, and well-rounded in terms of maturity and play-style. It's perhaps for these reasons, that any remaining flaws seem to stick out like sore thumbs.
Comment freely. PMs welcomed if they're relevant. Maybe even if they're irrelevant :p
-A. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 14 Mar 2004 03:21 PM |
I'll reply in a great deal more detail later on, however this:
3) I'm on the fence myself about this point, but I'll throw it out there to see if it swims: Make party alignment shift *only* for those party members that actually witness the initiating action, i.e., the party member(s) affected by the action are in direct visible or audible range of the action. I don't know if this is technically feasible, but it probably is.
Is impossible, as it's hard-coded by Bioware.
-Barnas |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 14 Mar 2004 05:21 PM |
Well, it's true that you are judged by those who you spend time with- for an example, people think worse of those who spend time with my PC Fri'el. She's sick, and the average person couldn't understand her or abide her. And thus, people consider those who can to be strange/wrong also. That's fair enough. The same principle goes for concepts such as stealing, which have chaotic shifts in many areas.
Now, I'm not supporting metagaming in any way, shape, or form.
However, you can gather tidbits about people which you don't "See" in the game engine. If you see someone handling traps and locks, you might consider them an underhand sort. And thus, a Paladin (Lawful) might choose not to spend time with them- thus he doesn't risk Chaotic shifts, but that's as a result of the IC avoiding of certain groups.
Of course, that doesn't hold true of times when people simply go "Hey, it's a rogue. Can't party with them, their looting will shift me to chaotic". I've never really seen -that- on Vives, however I have seen what I would feel to be milder versions of it. To those who would engage in that, I'd say don't do it.
If your alignment is shifted irreparably by someone on the other side of the map, a DM will most likely sort it out for you. So don't worry about that. If you're in the same place as them and can see the action, and don't stop them.. then you've earned the shift.
I would like to see some -->Lawful shifts put IG, to balance minor shifts which may occour. However, this isn't as much as a priority as asking people to merely choose parties IC and be careful. Don't metagame to avoid alignment shifts. Don't drag your thinking down to a rollplay level. You'll make the game less fun for yourself.
Rather, party with anyone and give them a chance. Then if they do something unnaceptable for your character, just leave the party and deal with it as such- in character.
-Barnas |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 14 Mar 2004 08:33 PM |
*snip*
Don't metagame to avoid alignment shifts. Don't drag your thinking down to a rollplay level. You'll make the game less fun for yourself.
Rather, party with anyone and give them a chance. Then if they do something unnaceptable for your character, just leave the party and deal with it as such- in character.
-Barnas
Unfortunately, the potential costs to Monks and Paladins are so high that this is unavoidable. A situation in a pnp session that would not cause an alignment shift will cause a massive shift in NWN.
I myself will not willingly travel with a rogue I do not know, nor will I willingly travel with one in any "civilized" areas as my character has already lost too many lawful points to risk it. Metagaming? perhaps, but I want to RP a monk who seeks to master his combat abilities, not a character who can no longer progress as a monk because of an engine anomaly.
Judging people based on who they spend time with can and does happen in an RP fashion.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 14 Mar 2004 09:17 PM |
| For clarity, the character wasn't a rogue, and acts lawful in game. Ironically, the character is also a monk. There was no in character reason for the situation. The OOC statements from the person at risk were clear on this: the character did not do anything wrong. |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 14 Mar 2004 09:23 PM |
And the point here is this issue affects the ability for players to party. The whole thrust of Vives is the induce party play, but now two classes are being told that they might not want to join parties except under the"right" conditions. To me, this is self defeating in server terms.
I have spoken out on this before and will do so again especially since this server seems to be getting knee-deep in monks, (not that I am complaining), but the issue affects more and more of us and as some of us get higher up in levels and our law quotient gets closer and closer to the you-are-no-longer-a-monk point, I think this is getting to the ctucial point andneeds to be addressed.
Callia |
Rutger_13
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Not all who wander are lost |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 02:34 AM |
I don't see who's told you not to join parties except under certain conditions. However, there are RP facts to bear in mind:
You are judged by those you travel with.
If you travel with bad people, you will get a bad reputation.
If you want to avoid a bad reputation, be careful who you travel with.
It's not a perfect system which Bioware have IG where you get the shift anywhere. However; Fri'el was played for ~4 months, without worrying about partying, and didn't get her alignment shifted more than one or two points.
Of course, if lawful monks run around with people who tend to loot everywhere, their alignments will shift pretty fast- so it's choosing who to party with based on IC knowledge: "XXX loots, I don't want to be seen with him."
Of course, another element is to tell people who -do- do chaotic acts to be considerate: So do be considerate If you've gone away from your party in terms of location for a while, leave the party if you feel the urge to loot.
-Barnas |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 09:57 AM |
Barnas, here is my point.
If a party is forming with a rogue who is known to loot indiscriminently, a monk (or paladin) should not join.
If a party is forming with one or more unknown characters, again, the monk should not join for the danger can be too great.
This pretty well sums up conditions being right wouldn't you say?
And yet, for a party to be well balanced, a rogue should be present so this weaken the basis of party play.
Allow me an example of why this is becoming critical
If I recall correctly, the cut-off for staying a monk is 71 point of Law. at 70, you are no longer considered a monk, am I correct?
Assumng I am correct, since my character started with law at 85, this gives me a whoppng safety zone of 14 points.
Saturday, while traveling with well known and trusted companions we entered the Scarletti Estate in Midor, a place well know for evil, torture and murder. Any good characters should be proud to go in a do their duty to their diety or conscious. However, after the fight to the death with the horrible cultest there, within a few seconds my alignment shifted 6 POINTS TOWARD CHOAS.
SiX points, damned near half of my entire, unaltered total.
So THIS is why this issue is truly important to settle.
Callia |
Rutger_13
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Not all who wander are lost |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 10:29 AM |
However, after the fight to the death with the horrible cultest there, within a few seconds my alignment shifted 6 POINTS TOWARD CHOAS.
That's because the area is still flagged "Looting gives alignment shift", and thus anyone looting cabinets would give an alignment shift to their party.
A balanced party does need a rogue. However, there are trustworthy rogues to be found, if you look. 'course, the other argument is that that's the risk of traveling with someone of their skills. You really want their help, but they can also present a problem to you.
And I say again, if you were shifted such that you couldn't continue as a monk for reasons outside of your control, I'm sure a DM would shift your alignment back so that you could.
-Barnas |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 11:39 AM |
Well, I am forced to ask why that area is still flagged that way. It is evil, they tried to kill us, there is torture and evilness in abundance there.
And yes, there are trustworthy rogues around, but you risk losing law points to find them. And rogues are not the only danger, of course. Any character of any alignment or class poses the same danger and it sure makes taking a new-to-the-server character out for some help a dicey proposition and frankly, Callia is well known for her help to new players.
I may have to rethink this position.
I'm not trying to cause you a problem, but why is this sword of Damocles dangling over the heads of two (only) classes all right for you? I just don't understand it.
Callia |
Rutger_13
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Not all who wander are lost |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 11:51 AM |
It's flagged that way becuase it's a -secret- cult, and stealing is -always- wrong in Midor.
Actually, put it this way.
Stealing... is... wrong...
It is wrong to steal from that house no matter what. It is wrong to steal from any house. Stealing "Because they're evil" isn't an excuse.
And it doesn't hang over the heads of two classes. Alignment shifts matter to a great many classes. However, the solution is still a combination of being careful who you party with and player care.
Looters: please leave parties before you loot your non-witnessing party towards chaotic. Be considerate to other players alignments and characters.
People who don't want your alignment shifted: Don't metagame with rogues and other PCs, and don't spend your life worrying about alignment shifts. They -really- don't happen as much as you might think and need to worry about them. If your alignment gets shifted and there's nothing you can do, a DM will most likely restore it. So don't worry about niggling mechanics like alignment and enjoy yourselves
-Barnas |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 01:15 PM |
I would say that ......
Stealing because the people in the house are evil is a chaotic/good type of alignment action
Stealing generally is a chaotic alignment action
But I do understand it is a harsh call that IG mechanics can cause a Paladin/Monk to become unplayable.
Does anyone have any actual IG Vives experience of a Monk/Paladin becoming unplayable due to alignment shifts ?
Does anyone have experience of a DM intervening to re-align a Monk/Paladin character ?
i.e. rather than worrying about possibilities, let's find out the realities ?
-Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 01:52 PM |
STATUS:
There are many interrelationships and dependancies associated with the issues as I see it. To keep things on track, I'd like to detail the current status of the issue I raise, and the specific suggestions. Point numbers refer to my original post.
1) I'm not 100% certain from the responses that we fully agree it's an issue that needs to be addressed. However, since Barnas has made an earlier reply that leaves the door open for Point #2 to be assessed, I'll close this point out as being met. CLOSED. Yay!
2) Barnas indicated some interest here as well. I don't know the organizational structure of Vives' staff, and I don't know if Barnas is the head cheese or not, so I leave it to Barnas to take forward and present to appropriate person(s), if necessary. Here's where I ask for agreement that you (Barnas! Yes, you!) will agree to do so. Whaddya say? Will you discuss this and assign priority (high or low, just get it on the radar for starters).
3) It's not technically feasible to do this. See Barnas' first reply. I had my own separate concerns I won't detail here (other than to say that depending on how it was implemented, it could have lead to alignment exploits). CLOSED. Yay!
4) I'm closing point #4, because I realize that no specific objectives were set other than to communicate to the player community. This is too vague an objective. My final thought on this point then is that I support the idea that in-game decisions be based on in-character knowledge and understanding. That's not the same as saying my monk is too stupid to realize that he shouldn't group with the guy named Nimblefingers Malone, all dressed in black, carrying poison daggers, and jangling about with 10 lockpicking toolkits. Any half-wit can come up with extreme and exceptional examples that defy any guideline or rule (I just did), so I hope that the community in general tries to follow the spirit of the rules as intended - as opposed to looking for loopholes. CLOSED. Yay!
This leaves Point #2 open, and in the fully-capable hands of Barnas! Yay! |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 01:55 PM |
I was just talking IMHO and on the basis of engine facts....
-Barnas |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 02:00 PM |
Stealing is wrong, no matter who you're stealing from. Do it, and you should reasonably expect to shift to chaotic.
Don't like alignment shifts, but need a rogue? Then your party better exert some peer pressure on said rogue to not be doing those sorts of things while you're about. Otherwise, if you can't trust them, don't party with them.
I'm totally against DMs "fixing" alignments for players who carelessly roleplay, and by this message, I'm asking them to not do this. The locations where alignment shifts exist are appropriate, as are the shifts that occur.
Roleplay with care, and you won't have to worry about your alignment. Otherwise, live with what you get. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 03:01 PM |
Well, I must say I am disappointed in the dichotomy here.
When is stealing stealing? It is wrong in Midor after cleaning out a nest of evil, but right and proper in Gorlath Manor just outside the gate?
And what about the sewers of Midor, all right to open chests there? If not, that eliminates a quest for the missing teddy.
Seems like a lot of mixed messages here.
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Rutger_13
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Not all who wander are lost |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 03:06 PM |
well - I completely agree with you Merum.
but it got one flaw.. sometimes your char cant tell if the rouge took anything or not.. and still got the alignment shift... maybe this can be restricted to the party members in the area only?
(so if you are on the other side of the server.. it wont really affect you. also if there is nothing you know about and nothing you can do about the things the rouge is doing at the said time [i.e if you are in a diff area])
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 03:25 PM |
it could work, but it would have to be scripted.
On your script that modifies alignment, only nail the party members who are in the immediate area, or in the same location. Party members in different areas don't get affected.
If the engine automatically changes the alignment of all party members with certain actions, then the script can go back and readjust those that have changed that are not in the local area.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 06:47 PM |
1. Gorlath Manor is an abandoned ruin. Who exactly would you be stealing from? Scarletto's is in a civilized city, with laws and a force of guards to enforce it, and people live there, so you're stealing from people who own the stuff. Same goes for the sewers. Anything you'd find in a sewer I'd expect would be fair game.
2. There is absolutely NO valid roleplay reason I can see for somebody to be halfway across the world and still in party with you. IMO, this is metagaming. Therefore, if you're in party with them, I suggest you deserve what you get. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 07:34 PM |
actually we didn't steal from anyone
we killed them... we killed them all.... muahahahaha
once the last body hit the floor, there wasnt anyone around to claim ownership.
IF there were a way for people to become more lawful then it wouldn't be such a big deal. I mean we can all buy goodness all day long, why not a way for people to get a little lawness back ? |
My lamentable plight... I am calamity.
fire... burning....agony...
sultry shivers of a dark essence
why am i tortured with this nihilistic existence?
-Maddox |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 08:22 PM |
Stealing is wrong. . .
A small correction, if I might :)
Stealing is chaotic. Lawful people might declare it wrong, because it goes against their laws, which they consider right. Chaotic people might disagree on the grounds that the laws are wrong therefore breaking them is, at a minimum, not wrong, or, of course, they might not give a dang about the laws. :)
Personally, I've never liked the idea that what another party member does affects your alignment. I've had friends who have done stupid things, in my presence, and, well, it didn't make me stupider...in fact, it often times made me smarter, especially when I spoke up against the stupid action.
The corallary to the above example is this: if a rouge steals something and a monk tells him that is wrong...imo, that makes the monk more lawful, but, IG, he becomes chaotic due to the rogue's actions. Otoh, if the rogue says "buzz off," that should make the rogue more chaotic.
Alignment shifts should not be purely existential. Though I tend to agree with the cliche that actions speak louder than words, I believe words do resonate, occasionally loudly. Speaking out against thievery, or any other lawbreaking activity, imo, makes one more lawful. The converse being true too.
Alignment, in any world I have been, has always been a pain, because people (as evidenced by this thread) have such strong opinions about what is right/wrong, lawful/chaotic, good/evil.
Taking a real world event....imagine we started discussing whether the US president's actions in Iraq were LG, CE, CN, LE etc....my god, that would be a never ending thread.
In any case, as Landru's signature suggests....question authority....the dogma of the chaotic one.
:)
:) |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 15 Mar 2004 11:54 PM |
well this yalls server to do what ever you want to with. if the creaters disire to give everybody rocket launchers then fine as a dm its your right. this game is based on D&D, the game that is nothing but role playing. the phrase role play i bet when asked the first thing that comes to mind is D&D. many people today prefer a faster pace and more action thus we have games like quake which is great also, but the harder you push away from D&D the closer you are to quake. which hey like i said its your game and your right as a dm to do what ever. all im saying is if you want to improve rp the follow the book as close as you can.
now thats over, one thing keeps getting said that makes no sense to me, your judged by who your seen with. i realy dont care how thats argued to be right or wrong, but would sombody please tell me how thats relevant. what does how ppl see you have anything to do with being good or evil. what does it have to do with being lawfull or chaotic, just because sombody thinks you broke a law does not mean you did.
why not just make all chest (safe to loot) and let a dm decide when to shift a persons alignment when they are caught. |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 16 Mar 2004 12:35 AM |
why not just make all chest (safe to loot) and let a dm decide when to shift a persons alignment when they are caught.
because the DM's cannot be there all the time to watch everyones actions. It makes no sense, for example, for a Paladin to loot and get along with it as long as no one catches them.
No, the "solution" is more complicated and involves a bit of scripting.
In the absence of that, the proper solution is to be careful who you party with, and if you get burned throught the actions of another that causes a problem with your alignment and loss of your class progression, contact a DM.
For those who about to loot, please be considerate and leave the party you are in beforehand and rejoin them afterwards.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 16 Mar 2004 12:40 AM |
| it seems to be ok for a paly to get away with murder if he is willing to pay a few hundred gold to buy his soul back. why not let it be possible for a paly to get away unscaved from a little burglary, only if a dm doesnt happen to see it. |
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Re: Alignment Issues
Posted: 16 Mar 2004 12:51 AM |
Everyone has made valid points. I'll ask that we focus this thead on the one open point from the original post:
"2) Balance the alignment affecting quests/adventures such that there's opportunity not only to lose good or lawful alignment points, but gain good or lawful alignment points. My understanding is that the only part that's missing now is that you cannot regain points lost along the Law-Chaos axis."
If the Vives staff agree the core idea is sound, then the next step is to put this on the list of things to do someplace. My own preference for implemention is that this allow only small corrections to alignment. And, of course, that the quests remain persistent, i.e., you can do a given quest only once. Larger alignment shifts should be DM-monitored to prevent exploitations and .. to add to the Vives story! |
-æsir
"The man that finds himself at a crossroads, and unsure of direction, is not lost. For in truth, all roads will carry him to the same destination - his fate. But it is the determined man that takes the next step." -Aren
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