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The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 08:13 AM |
Is it just me, or is this getting a little crazy here? What's the big thing with traps that automatically reset and locked doors that can't be bashed?
If you want to do any of these quests, you need a rogue with reasonable lockpick:
<Moderation note: Removed a list of mentioned quests with hints to their locations. Keep the IC info restricted to the game. You are spoiling a surprise/exploration aspect of the mod by revealing this kind of info so carelessly.>
I'm sure there are more that I don't recall off the top of my head.
In addition, there are plenty of chests that you can't get without a rogue because as soon as the trap goes off it automatically resets itself. I know there is one in <Moderation note: Mind the IC spoilers. You need not mention them specifically to prove your point. >, one in the <removed> and one <removed>. You are more likely to find a trapped chest that will automatically reset than not.
Now <place name removed> is locked? Come on.
Its not reasonable to expect every player in the game to take lock pick or drag a rogue around whenever they want to go into a dungeon. I won't even start on <location name removed>.
I understand you want to have some stuff that having a rogue along will make easy, but if I'm willing to suck up the trap and walk over it, then don't let it automatically reset keeping the goods away from me. And there is no way those doors are going to stand up to my massive 2-handed minataur axe. I don't think there's a door on the server that can be bashed.
I don't know if its intentional or an oversight. But what building like this does not encourage RP or teamwork, it encourages making a quick level 6-9 rogue who can go around and pick all the pesky locks and disarm all the bogus traps. Metagaming is frowned upon yet that is what I feel I'm pushed towards.
What say ye? Am I out of line here or do I have some valid points?
Thanks
Mike
<Moderation note: If you want to address an issue, fine. But keep it general. Leave out such direct reference to IC places, providing detailed info on what can be found and expected. You are spoiling the exploration aspect of the mod this way for new players. Keep the IC stuff as IC as possible. For an OOC discussion generic examples will most certainly suffice.> |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 09:09 AM |
Well, from a rogue's perspective, you need a fighter with you to do most of those quests. Soaps certainly couldn't manage <insert random quest> on her own, what with the undead being very rogue unfriendly, the <insert random name> quest involves some serious fighting, and so on.
If fighters could just bash doors out of the way, and soak up the traps then rogues are left as just weak fighters.
Of course this is rather biased as I haven't played a fighter, but it dosn't sound like you've played a rogue either. |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 09:25 AM |
I'm trying my hand at a rogue now and I must agree with Tux, most of the quests can't be done without some decent back up. It shows once more that it pays to form a party.
The same was true for Dias. At lower levels he couldn't do anything on his own, and all the quests you mentioned he had to be part of a party. He died a lot in the early levels. Using invisibility got him into places he should have stayed out ;)
As for traps then, without a rogue or a familiar that has those skills he was also left with a nice shining red chest. ;P
Phoenix |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 11:32 AM |
| Whether or not any or all doors should be bashable, and whether traps should be fire-once, are topics deserving entire debates on their own. However, my understanding of why increasing numbers of quest locations are being locked/trapped is because of players abusing the quest items by selling them over and over again. <Insert random quest> was the first example of that which I saw when I came to Vives. Being so close to Midor, it became a cash cow for people and there were a dozen of <Insert random quest reward> for sale at the Poor Peddlar each morning. I presume that the other locations gradually fell to the same problem. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 12:14 PM |
| i think thats what led to quests being a one time deal, you do it once and can never do it again. Course some items, like stuff people drop are going to load all the time but atleast narguhl only loads once per reset and so do chests. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 01:01 PM |
Not to mention that many items coming from quests dont give money if you sell them.
I have already pointed this aspect and Im waiting to see what people think now. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 04:06 PM |
"Now <***> is locked? Come on."
This was my mistake, I accidentaly locked it as part of a quest and forgot to unlock it, my bad . As for other locked stuff, traps, etc, if we didn't have them, who would want rogues in a party and such to help out? And also keep rogues busy with that junk rather than pick pocketing the server into bankruptcy .
~Fenarisk |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 05:08 PM |
I actually see the points of everyone who replied to this.
Let me phrase my question in a different way.
Is there a quest/area that REQUIRES the use of a *insert ANY class besides a rogue*. I understand you're trying to make the rogue more useful, but the class isn't so weak that it needs anybody's help. Between nonregressing xp for lock picks, to a zillion skill points, use magic device and tumble as class skills, and massive sneak attack damage, the rogue is just fine without anybody giving him an extra push. If you just want diversity on Vives, I think plenty of people enjoy the rogue on his own merits, you don't need to encourage it. Its a fun char to explore and RP with.
Most of those quests listed I certainly couldn't solo with my ranger, even if there weren't locks to pick. The problem was, I couldn't look for some random help on the server. No, I had to specifically find a rogue. All a rogue needs to do is find some muscle -- any muscle will do and the world is his oyster. I started a rogue about a month ago and while I immediately admit he doesn't have the sheer play time of my main char, I found him much more able to control his own destiny than either of my other two characters (ranger/monk).
You can do attempt every quest and every dungeon with a rogue + some other class. Meanwhile, you could have 1 each of cleric, fighter, wizard, druid, bard, paladin, monk, ranger, etc, etc and not ever get past that pesky locked door or trapped chest.
By making traps autoreset and doors unbashable you've made the rogue absolutely indespensible. No other class in Vives has that "must have" quality. |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 05:18 PM |
Let me assure you that I got past nearly all the static quests on my own. (single class wizard)
Of course I couldn't do it from level 1 or even 5, but even if it took some time, I was able to finish them. I must admit this was mostly due to having a familiar. If I didn't want to wait so long for doing them on my own, I had to enlist the use of fighters, clerics or anyone else who was willing. The traps could in this case still mostly be undone by my familiar.
As a second character I made a rogue. Ok, one gets a lot of skill points from open lock, etc, but it is NOT endless. After a while it goes down to 1 xp. Secondly some quests involve creatures that are immune to those massive criticals. So a lonely rogue might not do so much. Remember that we all start from level 1 and don't get that incredibly high AC for granted. ;)
Ok one can set traps to kill baddies, but at the price the traps go nowadays, low level rogues are having a hard time. This is not a rant, merely another good idea that rogues join parties. In the end everyone benefits from it.
It can be fun to run around on your own, but after a while it does get rather boring. ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 05:52 PM |
Yeah I agree even a rouge who seems to have the world at his/her fingertips needs backup really bad.
I seaked my way through two locked doors of increasing difficulty to try and complete a quest. Only to find something inside that would stop me from completing the quest alone. Luckely a certain verbaly foul character was around jess and picks. It was pretty easy to get him to where Id just been, talk the thing to death or whatever he did. The I could complete the quest.
Having said that maybe there are more rouge based quests than others.
Perhaps some quests that can only be initiated by a fighter or other class but require a rouge or any other class for that matter in order to complete them.
Fighter is hired in order to Kill something but is unable to get to it without a mage?
That'd be interesting.
Maybe these kind exist Ive not found them yet though.
We should probably keep in mind all the work these quests take to complete and the other things getting updated / improved on the server. |
Current Characters - Worik the Wanderer, Joda Zod, and Kango.
"Why do you wear that stupid bunny suit?" |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 06:06 PM |
I guess another thing to remeber would be that static, scripted quests are not the be all and end all when it comes to adventuring in Vives. Thats why we have DM's |
~Alosynth
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 06:43 PM |
| dm'd stuff is easily 1000 times more fun than any of the static stuff but the static stuff is good to do when no dm's are around. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 19 Jan 2004 10:39 PM |
| Perhaps DM'd stuff is 1000 times more fun. I'm in the situation where time zones prevent me from playing when most people play. Good chance that is a major cause of several of the issues I'm having. On the weekends I can usually find some help, but during the week its usually me and 1 or 2 others on at a time. |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 20 Jan 2004 01:42 AM |
...try being in a time zone that is 12 to 16 hours off of North America time...
Maybe one weekend I will be able to catch one of those famous PAJWT thingys that everyone seems to rave about. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 20 Jan 2004 03:03 AM |
| I'm east coast +14, tried it :). |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 20 Jan 2004 04:03 AM |
| i fail to understand why the standerd rules in 3rd edition is not good enough for every little complaint that one class isnt fair and should be changed. |
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Re: The most rogue-centric world ever
Posted: 20 Jan 2004 09:17 AM |
...try being in a time zone that is 12 to 16 hours off of North America time...
Maybe one weekend I will be able to catch one of those famous PAJWT thingys that everyone seems to rave about.
Those aren't DM events, by the way (although sometimes we have a hand) ;). They're run by two very good roleplayers on the server. Hats off to Pickston and Jessup! |
Question Authority! |
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