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Re: Elves Poon Joo..!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 03:45 PM |
I speak to fellow Coruscanti in Old Midoran sometimes, but that doesn't mean I'm antisocial.
No, it just means youre spirtually misguided. And brainwashed, perhaps.
No, not just perhaps...that part is likely. *nods knowingly* |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Elves Poon Joo..!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 04:02 PM |
No, it just means youre spirtually misguided. And brainwashed, perhaps.
No, not just perhaps...that part is likely. *nods knowingly*
Get behind me, Satan! |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Elves Poon Joo..!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 04:05 PM |
OK - Everyone else has had their say. Now -since I at last have the time - it's time for mine.
First off let me stress that these views are solely mine, not necessarily the views of the entire DM/Admin Team, so if you have a problem with what follows blame me, not them.
First Issue: Why are there currently so many Elves on Vives?
No idea.
Why are there so many sorcerers? Why when there has hardly been an Arcane Archer in sight for almost a year is there one and one which to appearances looks like they are going that way? No idea.
These things seem to go in cycles. I can recall a time a few months back when spotting a PC Elf was a rarity, indeed ran two extensive Ferein based storylines with hardly any other than NPCs present.
Where are the gnomes, dwarves, halflings and half-orcs? Again I don't know. How about you go and make one?
Why are Elves usually chosen over the above as would seem to be the case? Easy. Tolkien, LOTR movies, if not those then it is the mysticism that attracts.
Let's face it, we are playing after all in a fantasy environment, Elves are a fantasy race and to many, thanks to the above-named gentleman, are the one most ieasily identifiable.
Basically, your guess is as good as mine. Though frankly ranting because there are so many seems a little daft, next month or two months from now the situation could be completely different as I've already pointed out.
Second Issue: Ferein
Yes, it is huge. Yes, it seems empty. I totally agree, have agreed for some time and will do something about it as and when I get time. It is on my list but the list is huge. I myself would be the first to want to see it brought to life. Suggestions (SERIOUS suggestions, that is) as to suitable NPCs, songs, quests (no plots or storylines, please I have plenty) are welcome, as is the case for anywhere in the world. We have probably one of the best backroom teams anywhere but we are all only human - yes, even me (unfortunately) - and things such as these are always welcome.
That said, there is NOTHING to stop anyone, regardless of race visiting Ferein and RPing there, no one is excluded save those marked as enemies, and there are very few. Go there, stay a while, RP with your friends, you may be surprised. DMs tend to go where the players are, players tend to go where are other players are, RP catches the eye of DMs - things happen.
In my time here as player I have spent a lot of time there, if you go there, or even better if two or three go others will follow. Buckshire and Port Royale attract the most players generally for a variety of reasons, not least because it is the area immediately surrounding the Four Winds where everyone starts.
Give yourself a change - yes Ferein is beautiful, looks stunning, trust me it enhances the effect to play there, I know I've done it. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself, travel to Tel'Ilmela and stay there until the day/night cycle takes place - if what you see does not affect you and give the backdrop and mood for roleplaying nothing will.
Now, the thorny issue...
Language
There was a time, when I first started playing, when Vives did not have the DMFI language tools, everyone spoke common.
We have them now, they are a tool.
Let me first say this... Forget Elves, what you think or know about them, forget your conception of them.
Would you expect two Frenchmen, two Spaniards, two Germans, two Finns, conversing with each other to switch because you didn't understand them? Do you automatically assume when hearing two people conversing in their own tongue that they are concealing a secret from, or talking about you? Are you really, honestly, that paranoid?
In the same way that I was brought up speaking English, some of us were brought up speaking Finnish, Yiddish, Swedish, whatever, Elves are brought up speaking.... *shock horror* Elven.
Do ALL Elves converse 100% of the time in front of all of you in Elven? With the exception of one any that I play don't. Yes, they speak Elven to another Elf. With that one exception, if someone is present who doesn't understand it they speak Common. But remember this, Common to Elves is a foreign language.
I don't know, tell me... those of you whose first language isn't English in particular - do you if speaking English translate in tense moments or when threatened or revert to your own tongue? If you are in a room with strangers and by some means recognise a fellow native do you risk being misunderstood in a foreign language or use your own to your countryman to find out what's going on?
Every nationality reverts to their own comfort zone in moments of pressure.
In addition, let me say that as well as considering it perfectly natural, and IC, for an Elf to speak Elven to another, I think the same when it comes to halfling, gnomish, orcish or whatever. Do I become offended if I'm playing an Elf and that happens (and it has on occasion)? No.
Should you when playing an Elf speak Elven exclusively? Well, it depends on the Elf.
Firstly, for the benefit of the uninitiated, an identity parade since there appears to be some confusion.
Atalan
In stature, build and to outward appearance look like any other Elf. They universally however have grey skin and pale, white hair. They do NOT speak Elven among themselves, they have a tongue of their own (yes, it is IG but don't expect to be able to learn it). Atalan are hostile to EVERYONE, they are a non-playable race and treated as such like any other creature in the game.
Tarikians
Exist both as PCs and NPCs, NPCs are hostile and usually only to be found in or near their own homeland, enter at your own risk and take care when travelling nearby. Also - and this is generally forgotten - they are AT WAR WITH FEREIN and have been for many, many years. It may not look like it but the Slyvian Trail is a warzone, fiercely contested, Elves die there regularly in battle. PC Tarikians are few and usually, though not always, can be distinguished by their carrying their favoured weapon, an acid coated spear. Tarikians speak Elven at all times and what is more couldn't care less who they are upsetting.
Hostility wise do NOT expect as a matter of course to be attacked by a Tarikian. Why? Head now to Essential Information and take a look at the Gods in Vives thread. Tarikians live for the HUNT - that does not necessarily mean the kill, their joy comes from chasing down the victim by whatever means. This may sound stupid but Tarikians DO NOT LIVE IN FEREIN (as I have heard at least one player say recently).
Arosians/Elberethians
Both NPC and PC versions. NPCs can be encountered anywhere in Ferein, along the Slyvian, in Latonei Forest, sometimes even as far as Gladden, though rarely. Usually they wil be clad in some combination of forest green with perhaps another colour, usually gold. Elberethians usually dress in a mixture of Forest and Olive Green, often with gold or silver trimmongs. Ferein druids are typically bare footed.
Language? Elven, naturally, but all the time? Well it varies from Elf to Elf. A rabid, dyed in the wool Arosian would like a tarikian speak Elven almost exclusively... why? It is his/her culture, to speak common is allowing the progress of an outside influence to weaken that culture. How YOU interpret that is up to you, NPC wise that would most likely only apply to officials high in the Arosian Church, Holy Warriors and Camthalion.
Elberethians, well again as really in their religion they are far less strict - yes they will speak Elven (or druidic) among themselves but have no problem speaking Common among others though in moments of stress or danger they would revert to type - Elven is just as much their first language.
Yes, it can be annoying, yes it is sometimes overused. Will it change or will a change be enforced? No.
Playing an Elf well is not easy. Playing an Elf well in Vives is even more difficult, particularly an Arosian or Tarikian.
As for tensions between Elves and non-Elves? What you perceive is up to you, I don't see how you can really expect an answer to that.
Vives has a backstory, the Elves have a backstory and a planned development, they have a history too - all is interlinked and you will be seeing it.
The world is constantly evolving, have patience with all aspects of it. We try to make the experience as immersive and enjoyable as possible. Part of that is the differences and conflicts in opinion and outlook between the different races. Just go with the flow. |
ELVES! |
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Re: Elves Poon Joo..!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 04:11 PM |
Hm, I feel like I should say something on this, considering what Alis got herself into yesterday ;).
It does annoy me when elves start babbling in their native tongue in a group where many won't understand them. (You know, when in Rome...) Makes me a tad paranoid as well. If it goes on and on and the uncomfortableness level rises high enough, Alis tends to leave the scene.
It is funny that even though other races have their own languages, I don't really remember being annoyed by them. Maybe it is partly because there are so many elves around, as Axon mentioned. In any case, it seems to me that while other races use racial languages only for short remarks (and often it is pretty self-explanatory in the context what they are about), elves use their language to have entire conversations, no matter who else is in the group. If they wish to do so, that is their own decision and I don't mind, but it is very alienating. Well, I suppose they know what they're doing. |
IG character: Alis Rapidshill |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 04:33 PM |
I just want to clarify what I mean.
About the Ferein issue that came up: Ferein is not a boring place at all. A lot of what you can find in PR/Buckshire can be found there, too. It's just farther away, and is surrounded by high-level areas. But it's a big and beautiful place that I think it's a shame most people, including the many elves we have lately, don't visit that often. Nidarren actually has a room there. I'm just saying that you'd expect from an elf who feels so superior that he doesn't mingle with the lessers at all, and chooses to speak Elven whenever possible, to spend some more time there. People should spend more time there.
About the languages: I actually like the varied languages. I think it adds a LOT to the roleplay. I have no problem with elves who speak Elven generally, and in fact, Nidarren is still trying to learn it. What bothers me though is when I'm RPing in a group and all of a sudden, the elves in that group decide to speak among themselves, leaving the rest of the group out of the conversation. Like whispers, except here you don't ask to have a private word with someone, and often it goes for quite a while. It happened to me on several occasions. Again, if it's the IC thing to do, there's no problem with it and it's even desirable, for the sake of the RP. I was just exclaiming some frustration.
This thread is just a rant, not a criticism. |
AKA Adept
Ben Bright: portrait, description (02/17/07) |
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Re: Elves Poon Joo..!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 04:49 PM |
Too bad I was so slow posting my reply, I have to answer this one.
Would you expect two Frenchmen, two Spaniards, two Germans, two Finns, conversing with each other to switch because you didn't understand them?
If they are conversing just with each other in private, of course not. But if they are a part of a larger group, where there are other nationalities, yes, I certainly would, and I've done it too on many occasions. It is not very polite to leave others outside the discussion, especially if you have plenty of skills in speaking a language that everyone would understand. And if you have to speak in your native language, and you notice that it makes others uncomfortable/obviously wondering what you just said, would it be so bad to translate, even just the gist of it, to the one who doesn't understand? I've seen it happen in RL, although it might have something to do with the fact that the people I refer to (self included) study translating and interpreting.
The whole reverting to your own language when under pressure is true enough, but the eagerness to do so depends on your skills in the foreign language in question. I think that if you know the language well, the situation would have to be really bad before you'd start using your mother tongue. If this would be the case Vives-wise, it should be fairly obvious that the person is having trouble communicating in Common, but everyone seem to be perfectly fluent with it, which brings up the rudeness question.
That's my two cents, as someone who was brought up speaking Finnish. |
IG character: Alis Rapidshill |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 04:53 PM |
Again, you make the assumption that 1) All Elves treat you as an inferior and dislike mingling with humans - read Aros's entry in the Essential information. I think you're being a little sweeping. Not all Elves think that way, even Arosians.
2) All Elven is secrets or about the other people present - very little of it.
Yes, it is frustrating, yes it is IC for an Elf to speak Elven, some more so than others, yes an Elf is going on occasion to use it in company.
As for Ferein being surrounded by high level areas? Well... it costs money but there is a boat, last I heard the Holy Warriors weren't shooting everyone who appeared at the bottom of that hill. Ferein is easily accessible, far more accessible - it might interest you to know - than when I started playing, when that service did not exist.
Yes, I know it's a rant, what I'm trying to do is explain that there are reasons, valid reasons for it. It isn't by any means the case that it applies to all Elves, as I pointed out earlier I only play one who speaks Elven constantly, but that is me. I certainly haven't seen it used in the manner you describe recently, nor have I seen it used inappropriately as an alternative to whispering.
Believe me, it would be easy enough to see since it gets highlighted in the DM channel as do all languages. |
ELVES! |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 05:04 PM |
If they are conversing just with each other in private, of course not. But if they are a part of a larger group, where there are other nationalities, yes, I certainly would, and I've done it too on many occasions. It is not very polite to leave others outside the discussion, especially if you have plenty of skills in speaking a language that everyone would understand. And if you have to speak in your native language, and you notice that it makes others uncomfortable/obviously wondering what you just said, would it be so bad to translate, even just the gist of it, to the one who doesn't understand? I've seen it happen in RL, although it might have something to do with the fact that the people I refer to (self included) study translating and interpreting.
Don't disagree with you. See above. With one exception, my Elves will switch, or explain what was said.
I am aware that there are those who don't, my point was that there are cases, valid ones, where there is a reason for this. It might be that I'm being misunderstood here, or maybe that I didn't put it that well, the example of it only being two people was probably not the best. |
ELVES! |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 06:03 PM |
There was a small run-in between Dana, Ophelia, and Alyssa that I was privelaged to see.
Much of the exchange between Dana and Ophelia was in Orcish; despite there only being two that understand the language among seven souls present.
Am I offended? Of course not; trying to figure out what made Ophelia so nervous and surprised and what shocked Dana so much made the entire thing enjoyable and tense.
Would I have demanded they converse instead in Common?
[] No!
But it's exactly the same as what Nidarren's describing about Elven; any complaints from him or anyone else?
'Course not.
Hence, my comment earlier about none of the other races being ragged on for their language.
If we wanna be fair about this entire farce, then I expect a thread to go up about the situation last night titled "Half-Orcs and Wannabe's FTL!" Otherwise, just drop it and stop being so danged sensitive.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 06:38 PM |
The difference is, from what I saw, they only exchanged a few words in Orcish, and they didn't do it near the others. Since elves are far more common than half-orcs, and Elven is spoken a lot more, it's not as relevant; although, it is true to every other language, as I said before. This thread wasn't opened because I have a principle against elves. I actually like elves.
Thing is, I often RP with elves who tend to suddenly switch to Elven and start having entire conversations of their own. That's when I tend to feel a bit left out, and that's what I said was pretty rude; but I think Liisi said it better.
And again, this thread is not a criticism of anyone. |
AKA Adept
Ben Bright: portrait, description (02/17/07) |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 07:38 PM |
((I feel ya Henesua, I'm disillusioned in my own surroundings as well. I'd happily move to Argentina/Germany/Brasil etc, without a second thought. Unfortunately I bought the "Ameri-con" and got myself sunk under student loans before I can officially leave for good. Now that I'm planted for a while, I'll pay those off and then see where I land.))
Filraen due to his reclusiveness only speaks broken common. I HATE having to constantly *INSERT* how bad his spoken common is ((when he actually speaks at all, since even in Elven he'd prefer not speak if he didn't have to.)) So yeah, no offense, that's just his way. Linguistics will be really fun with my new Druid/Monk/??? "Animal". He is still using grunts and simple 2-word phrases. Kalannar has learned some Elven, officially, now. Thank you to Yggsdrasil and Elven Wine for that. He has a terrible accent and I HATE always having to *note* that in conversation.
I personally speak 2 languages fluent and am proficient in a third, what's wrong with using other languages? Listen and maybe learn something. It's lame when you hear your *name* dropped in another language, with no explaination. Now THAT's rude.
I heard a great joke in church a few years back: ((context made it funny, --insert disclaimer for Buddhists/Agnostics/Athiests, it's a joke after all.))
"Had you heard that much research has been done and they've discovered that the official language in Heaven is going to HAVE to be English..."
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"How else are people going to be able to communicate with United States-Americans?"
WHaHAHAHAHahahahahAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
((Maybe it's just me. There are so many levels to that joke.))
K.I. |
"Life is a short trip... travel light"
--
PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 10:50 PM |
The difference is, from what I saw, they only exchanged a few words in Orcish, and they didn't do it near the others.
Dana was standing beside the table for much of the time. How is that not the same?
And I suppose you weren't there quite long enough to get offended.
Since elves are far more common than half-orcs, and Elven is spoken a lot more, it's not as relevant; although, it is true to every other language, as I said before. This thread wasn't opened because I have a principle against elves. I actually like elves.
Elves are just the prime example because they're more numerous?
Yes, that certainly makes things much more fair.
A title like "Elves FTL" is definately what threw me off; I'd have thought you didn't like Elves if they were for the lose.
Thing is, I often RP with elves who tend to suddenly switch to Elven and start having entire conversations of their own. That's when I tend to feel a bit left out, and that's what I said was pretty rude; but I think Liisi said it better.
And again, this thread is not a criticism of anyone.
Maybe something important or private has to be said; and since you're decidedly not Elven, it's a safe way of communicating; since IG, for all the other Players know, you may or may not have the ability to hear a pin drop from a mile away.
And besides that, I can't find where it's written that I have to Roleplay with specific people. Think you could point that out to me? I'm awfully sorry while you're fishing that out; I thought I had a choice of acting IC around other Elves.
P.S. Before someone says I'm bitter...I'm not, 'kay? So no over-the-web counseling, please.
I might get offended.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 10:55 PM |
Calm, brothers... I sense a negative aura from this thread, dudes.
-Barnas |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 08 Aug 2006 11:20 PM |
I don't want this thread to grow into a fight. It's not a criticism and it's not directed at any player in particular. I don't want to reply to the Orcish part because that might make it look like I'm blaming someone specific, which again, I'm absolutely not, and I don't want anyone taking any of this personally. Again, everything can be said about not only elves and Elven, but any other racial language.
The title was sarcastic... Changed now. |
AKA Adept
Ben Bright: portrait, description (02/17/07) |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 09 Aug 2006 02:35 AM |
I think people are just usually excited about the prospect of showing off their uniqueish abilities. Mages are stoked about poofing in from invisibility and elves want to talk their gibberspeak. I don't usually make pronouncements from on high (not that I have any authority to do so, but um, even when I do, I don't usually) but I gotta go ahead and say that the general you should never confuse IC dickheadedness for OOC cruelty. Great RP can be had when two people who realize that it's all a game decide to have a little tiff.
But that said, if 3 elves and a human are sitting in a quadrant and the elves start speaking in their native tongue at length, the human by all means should get pissed, confused, and susupicious. When someone is speaking in a foreign language around you, you tend to assume it's because they don't want you to understand what they have to say. Are they talking about you? Do your colors clash?
Anyhow, yes, it's obviously rude, just as it is in real life. Just don't take it personally; elves are arrogant punks. |
True solace is finding none, which is to say, it is everywhere.
-Gretel Ehrlich |
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Re: Elves FTL!
Posted: 09 Aug 2006 05:44 AM |
Just don't take it personally; elves are arrogant punks.
You can take the Midoran outta Midor...
*Grins proudly, wipes tear from eye* |
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