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Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 12:11 PM |
Rather than continuing to post in the Mask of the Betrayer thread I thought I would post my ideas for respawn here. Unusually for me, the following is not balance related. It is simply the kind of system for respawn which I think would be fun. It would make sense for anyone with suggestions of their own to post in this thread.
I will create a separate thread for discussion on xp gain.
Simply put my idea is thus.
Upon hitting the respawn button a character is returned to one hit point (or whatever), and transported to an OOC area:
The character chooses from a number of doors/portals out of this area depending on the type of respawn the character wants.
1- 'standard' respawn: The character looses 3% xp 10% gold (or whatever) and is transported to the in character respawn area.
2- 'not actually dead' respawn: The character losses xp and gold as above and is returned to the place where they died.
3- 'reincarnation' (for characters over 15th level and monks over 10th level only)
The character looses all xp, and is returned to the character setup area. The character's abilities remain the same as they were before xp loss. In the character setup area the character can change his/her appearance and name (if it is possible to script they could also change their race). |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 01:51 PM |
As it stands, I hate the respawn system, if for no other reason that it has no real explanation in game, leaving it up to the players to find their own paradigm. Bodies disappear and wind up in various locations, and the players always seem to know where to look. "Dragging bodies" is nice and all, but the player can opt to wait to be rezzed.
My favorite version of the respawn is where doing so will send you to the "afterlife" where you can then pray for/barter for/whatever for your life. You should have the option of returning to a safe place or to where you died. At least that can be explained IG. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 02:06 PM |
| I think the current system of respawn should still be an option. It seems appropriate to me in some cases. I like the afterlife thing. Perhaps reincarnation could be achieved based on this rather than on character level? I think high level monks should be able to bypass this though. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 03:31 PM |
The respawn system in game is explained just fine. If you are with friends they carry you to the nearest healer. If you are alone, one of the recovery teams took you to the healer.
Simple. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
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Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 03:42 PM |
| The invisible, never seen recovery teams :P |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 03:49 PM |
So when my character gets killed by frost giants with true seeing, a recovery team of epic characters comes and rescues her? PCs are meant to be heroes, or at least promising individuals. If the recovery teams are that powerful why were the giants still alive? Is that what the gp loss is for? To pay for the bribe?
What am I saying... Your joking, Right?
PS. Tasra, you might want to put ':P' as you signature, it could save you a lot of time. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 04:11 PM |
You can rationalize it anyway you wish, but no, I am not joking. Fallen PCs are picked up by recovery teams. That is the assumption in Vives.
Nevertheless as you are talking about the mechanics of what is happening, I don't see why what I have said would interfere with this discussion. I just don't like seeing false assertions, and so I corrected them.
In otherwordsd please continue with the actual meat of the discussion. I've merely interjected to put down a misconception. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 05:06 PM |
| *slaps the stupid recovery team for not recognizing that the Ranger Lodge is far closer than Midor to the Bloodwood North as is Falloman's retreat of course...stupid stupid...don't they know that hin's are not real popular in Midor?* |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 05:21 PM |
I like the idea of an "afterlife", or at least a Vives equivalent of an afterlife. However, an afterlife should have a point which would be more than just entertain our need for a logical explanation into the roleplay value of respawning.
However you look at it, respawning usually won't make sense from a RP perspective. The common conception about it is either your friends carried you into safety or some rescue party found and brought you back. Whether it makes sense or not, it doesn't matter - go with your imagination and whatever explanation seems reasonable.
Personally, it makes a lot of sense to me, and I know it has been taken into extra levels in some cases, like NPCs or CPCs coming from such rescue teams (specifically: Midoran ones). Does it lessen the value of our PC characters as "heroes"? Maybe. I never, ever created a character seeing it as a "hero" and superior to other NPCs. No one ever told you that you are making a "hero" either - you are making a character, moreover a level 1 character which is actually inferior to most NPCs. If you try to think too much into it, you can find 1001 logical flaws in any PW. Like Henesua said, that's just the case here, less so it is only the common conception and there are others.
I don't like the idea of either giving several "options" for a dead character - either you are resurrected by some means, or you respawn elsewhere. No "shortcuts" as they are. Certainly no variants for different classes, no matter who or what they are. The incarnation idea suggested in the first post sounds like a "shortcut" to me - make a new character from the ruins of the old and dead one? Just make a new one from point zero (or am I misunderstanding it?).
So, I'd like the idea of an afterlife - on the condition it isn't there just to entertain us and actually has a purpose while sitting with the lore. A missing piece in the puzzle, to my opinion, is always better than a piece that doesn't fit. I also like the idea of penalty, particularly an XP penalty as experience is a sensitive resource in Vives: death SHOULD have a meaning to the player and his character. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 05:38 PM |
| I'd like to see a greedy God of death who gives you options at death; pay with a level based amount of experience, pay with a permanent ability point reduction, pay with a level based amount of gold, or pay with an item of value >=X. You should also be able to buy "deeds" from a temple in game (for some exorbitant amount) that let you return to the land of the living unscathed. Sort of like buying death insurance. Maybe it gets more expensive the more you buy, but still less expensive than buying your way out of death without one. Finally, maybe you can find (extremely rare) items in game (rare black stones or whatever) that will buy your way out of death also. They could be high level loot, quest rewards, or DM grants. The deeds would be undroppable, while the stones can be (and thus traded/sold, etc.). |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 06:54 PM |
I like the idea of a greedy god of death as well, and I propose to name him Hans Wilhelm :P
And Frimble, I have no idea what you're talking about ;) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:00 PM |
Fallen PCs are picked up by recovery teams. That is the assumption in Vives.
Point in Case:
The Watermill outside of Icy Vale; Shaldriel (I believe that's the healer's name) mentions her husband in conversation.
I usually make it a point (when traveling with others into dangerous territory) of "Talking" to the NPC that controls the respawn point. It's my way of dealing with the whole, 'Teleported-from-Ice-Giant-Cave-to-Watermill' thing. NPC's would be alerted to my characters' possible presence and thus, should my party need to flee without retrieving my body, I can still respawn with very few scrupples.
I'd like to see a greedy God of death who gives you options at death; pay with a level based amount of experience, pay with a permanent ability point reduction, pay with a level based amount of gold, or pay with an item of value >=X. You should also be able to buy "deeds" from a temple in game (for some exorbitant amount) that let you return to the land of the living unscathed. Sort of like buying death insurance. Maybe it gets more expensive the more you buy, but still less expensive than buying your way out of death without one. Finally, maybe you can find (extremely rare) items in game (rare black stones or whatever) that will buy your way out of death also. They could be high level loot, quest rewards, or DM grants. The deeds would be undroppable, while the stones can be (and thus traded/sold, etc.).
The Ravenloft server (I'm not proud!) has something to that effect. While I don't quite agree with their Death-system (no risks, meaning I can kill myself however many times I'd like and it wouldn't make a difference), the idea of a 'World between Worlds,' I.E., a middle realm between this life and the next, is what I draw attention to.
I believe Death (assuming Vives II will feature some sort of incarnation of this personification) should be bartered with, as D.S. put forward.
A trip back to the Living world in exchange for exp, or for gold, or for the PC's most valuable item on-hand, or something equally pricey. It would make dying a tragic and very regrettable event, but would make it something more sensical and less aggravating.
To have to pay out Exp to some invisible entity that seems to enjoy our suffering isn't fun. But with a tangible element that a PC is forced to bargain with (There's a thought - skill-based checks to determine a character's resurrection cost), things might not be quite as bad. |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:13 PM |
To have to pay out Exp to some invisible entity that seems to enjoy our suffering isn't fun. But with a tangible element that a PC is forced to bargain with (There's a thought - skill-based checks to determine a character's resurrection cost), things might not be quite as bad.
I don't know about that. Everybody would take "Appraise" or "Diplomacy" or whatever. Death penalties should always be serious. But certainly, there should be some options. I can even justify each one.
Gold - Gold has some sort of special use for it in the Death God's realm.
Magical Items - Either given to particularly dedicated supplicants, or broken down for the magical essence contained within.
Ability Points - Still working on the same concept of "giving a bit of yourself," this goes back to traditional D&D death rules and is in many ways more serious than losing experience. The only problem with this is that it can make a character theoretically "unplayable." Maybe impose a restriction that requires that you can only give from a stat >10.
Deeds - Making large donations to the Death God's temple affords you favor from the God itself.
DM Grant - DM Resurrections happen anyway, and personally, a token signifying the favor of a God would be one Hell of a gift, especially at high level. I could see people going on quests exclusively for them. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 08:42 PM |
To have to pay out Exp to some invisible entity that seems to enjoy our suffering isn't fun. But with a tangible element that a PC is forced to bargain with (There's a thought - skill-based checks to determine a character's resurrection cost), things might not be quite as bad.
I don't know about that. Everybody would take "Appraise" or "Diplomacy" or whatever. Death penalties should always be serious. But certainly, there should be some options. I can even justify each one.
Gold - Gold has some sort of special use for it in the Death God's realm.
Magical Items - Either given to particularly dedicated supplicants, or broken down for the magical essence contained within.
Ability Points - Still working on the same concept of "giving a bit of yourself," this goes back to traditional D&D death rules and is in many ways more serious than losing experience. The only problem with this is that it can make a character theoretically "unplayable." Maybe impose a restriction that requires that you can only give from a stat >10.
Deeds - Making large donations to the Death God's temple affords you favor from the God itself.
DM Grant - DM Resurrections happen anyway, and personally, a token signifying the favor of a God would be one Hell of a gift, especially at high level. I could see people going on quests exclusively for them.
I'm not saying the penalties wouldn't be serious; far from it. I'm pretty sure that when the personification of Death comes to mind, most people think of a being as old as Time itself - and thus very, very clever when it comes to extracting whatever he/she/it needs.
I had in mind a slight shaving off the overall cost - say, if someone dies and loses 20,000 EXP, then maybe they can manage to shave off maybe up to 500. Not much, when you look at the differences in amount; but given what we've all been told about Vives II's EXP plateau at level 10, this could probably save a good hour's worth of Kill-spree work. |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 09:30 PM |
Just a couple thoughts...
I really like WA's statement that a missing puzzle piece is better than a piece that doesn't fit well. From somewhere. WA = Forum Buddha!
There's something to be said for the current "wing it" approach to the respawn. Crawl away on your lips, get picked up by a patrol, or pretend it never happened. All those seem to work fine and I don't see a need to belabor it. The explanation for a respawn might best be considered situational.
I can also see the value of marking character death in some special way, you know, beyond the tragedy of XP loss. Some things that have been mentioned or that I have seen: a period where the character cannot accumulate XP, maybe even moving around the server like a ghost. One server allows PCs to visit the spot where they died to gain back some of the XP that they lost on respawning. That's a great alternative for a server where there are no planes aside from the one players play in.
Just for myself, I'm not a terribly big fan of respawn areas that represent the afterlife or some realm of death. I know this solution is pretty popular though. Why is the afterlife only one area? I would totally spend time in the afterlife if there was more to do.
I would totally lie dead on the ground if I could still earn XP for roleplaying. That's right. Death should pay ME to go away!
Seriously though, while I can accept the explanations offered for each alternative to the straight-up XP and gold loss, I can't see any way to explain why a player gets to choose which penalty to pay for respawning.
Everyone suffers the same penalty for respawning with the current system. Its applied evenly across the server. I think that should remain unchanged. Perhaps if the various penalties were randomized... with the odd chance of returning to life as a brownie or a centaur ala Frimble's reincarnation suggestion.
(I like the reincarnation idea actually and find it to be groovy.)
I can't see buying your way out of these penalties though. Deeds and tokens, death insurance that you can buy in advance (really respawn insurance), it would just exaggerate the differences between rich established characters and them lessers. Established characters who can bring in the gold would never have to suffer the respawn penalty if they really worked at getting those deeds and tokens. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 01 Nov 2007 09:41 PM |
I do like the idea of not being able to acquire experience for a time. I would prefer losing the next 10 hours of experience gain to losing the last 10 hours I invested. It also would promote hanging out in town and role-playing, or crafting, to running back into the woods like an idiot, and would additionally create a physical aspect to death; the spirit or body being "too weak" to run back into the woods immediately.
As far as "bribing death" goes, no matter what you're paying, it should be relative to your level, so no matter what level you are, it should be hefty. Looking at it from a gold perspective, let's say that you have to pay based on how much experience you would be losing, and your level (1,000 gold per experience, potentially losing 12,000 experience at level 15 = 180,000 gold). And certainly, after that, a rich established character wouldn't be rich anymore. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 01:41 AM |
Re: respawns
Respawns are not explicitly defined. It's up to you to decide what a respawn is. For me it is often things like:
*falls of the bridge*
*crawls away in the confusion*
i.e. things that happen because of the luck of a hero, rather than a miraculous intervention by Deus Ex, the body snatcher.
So for me, IC, respawns are not recovering from death, only a good solid thrashing where a lesson was learned
Re: costs of dying
The DMs a couple of years back had a long, long, long discussion on the costs of dying and why. One of the problems that we were seeing were PCs who were acting in a fashion that was totally improbable because they were completely unafraid of death or the consequences of their actions. Things like
- thumbing their noses at uber level evil PC and expecting they can walk away from it (that led to a relaxing in the pvp rules)
- repeatedly respawning and returning to the scene of the crime to try and die again (wtf? no solution for that)
- not taking death seriously - e.g. thinking that the PC could go into a major, orderly city and killing people with wild abandon, in the open, and still thinking they could get off scott free. (we came as close as we ever had with involuntarily permadeathing PCs for that)
- constant ooc abuses with trying to avoid the respawn costs for their own folly (closer monitoring and better logging of who was doing what at the time so we could spot some of the more flagrant abuses).
If we introduce a system that has no cost of dying, what will happen to the rp? Will it suffer like it did during one bad stretch that caused the DMs no end of grief?
I mentioned I liked the Thain system because although it had a cost (you cannot gain XP for X amount of hours after death), it didn't feel like a cost because I didn't lose any xp I had previously gained.
Another system that another group developed was the thought of a limited number of deaths per PC, but no XP losses. After the PC hit their maximum # of deaths, they would die and die forever. (the number of deaths was around 100 or something like that). Here is a system that has no loss, but makes death cost dearly, especially those who have died a large number of times (more experienced characters certainly) but had enough deaths allowed in the system to allow the player to die quite a number of times.
What will we do in V2? That's still up in the air. Still, if anyone has any interesting thoughts, we'd love to hear them.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 01:56 AM |
PS: The average # of deaths per PC that I have records on (some 3057) is 11.
PPS: For the top 100 long standing PCs, the average is closer to 50ish |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 05:46 AM |
| Where do you get these statistics from? :O PDW has magical tracking information :o |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 05:55 AM |
| It's all in the database - you just have to ask it nicely. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 05:56 AM |
In my experience the ten lives and one extra for every five levels works quite well. What happens..
Some pc's never do anything but charge ahead. In the name of role play. In a real life situation..these people die. On a permadeath server they tend to leave. They prefer an xp loss server. A certain couple comes to mind. A monk who loved knockdown nd his sidekick. Nice people loved rp and would talk for hours...but they didn't see any sense in modifying their behaviour.
New people build a pc and learn the server die a lot. Build a new pc and try again. Doing much better this time.
A few people do well...they travel in groups...clerics become quite valuable to a party.
People tend to build stronger pc's In other words powerbuilds. (OMG did I say that on Vives?) Well AFAIK Vives 2 will run on NWN2 and that is a totally different set of rules. I should think powerbuilding more difficult ..have little information. Just two tidbits monks don't get speed increase after level 8 and rangers get more spells and imp 2 weapon at level 6. Sure it is tweaked other ways too
What's a sorceror but a power build anyway =P And cleric/monks as well. Bah! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 09:10 AM |
I don't really like the idea of a limited number of deaths. I'm always at a strong opposition to permadeath, regardless of how or when it comes.
Why? Because I don't like rules which force your PC into situations as a player, situations which you are unable to solve through your PC. Permadeath tells you as a player: "Your character is dead, and you can longer play him - at all - forever and ever - for all eternity and infinity - and no, there is nothing you can do about it - absolutely nothing, no not even that."
Some players do like being told that. It fits their idea of being immersed into the world and taking responsibility for your actions.
I don't like it. I like being able to work through my character's issues in character no matter what they are, with no "external" forces demanding me to go one way or another. There will ALWAYS be a way for someone to be an a$$. If you put a chain on all players just to stop the a$$ from running amok, you're burning an entire village because one man in it is a traitor.
If Vives ever became permadeath, I probably wouldn't participate in it as a player. That's not my style of play, even though it can be others'. It ain't a bad thing, but it is a major difference between one PW and another, and should be considered carefully: far more carefully than whether XP loss should be 3% or 4%, more like considering whether it is 3% or making the sun go supernova. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:14 AM |
| Another thing with limited deaths... imagine all the complaining that will be heard when people die from lag. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:19 AM |
Another thing with limited deaths... imagine all the complaining that will be heard when people die from lag.
A single DM trip could potentially remove half the server's Players.
Well...That could be construed as one way of reducing lag. (:
I'm pretty sure Permadeath has already been decided against by our Team - I seem to remember Paul or perhaps someone else vowing that it would never rear its ugly head in Vives II.
While Permadeath is definitely very realistic (as per a good number of roleplayers' tastes), Vives isn't realistic enough to warrant such a harsh and near-unbending system. So I'm with W.A. in saying that if Permadeaths become standard in Vives the Second, I'm outta here. |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:20 AM |
| as opposed to now? |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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