|
Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 06:21 PM |
Because I give it a couple of hours tops before it is deleted.
I’ve stuck with Vives as long as I can. For the last couple of weeks, I have been too apathetic to do anything – but recent events have galvanised me again. Last night showed me the capabilities of a dang fine player base. But my anger is not at the players.
I vent most of my anger here at the DM’s.
Get off your freaking high horses. There seems to be this prevalent thing lately where the slightest 'deviation' on the part of a player from the 'Vives Ideal' results in snide and condescending comments on the 'correct' way to be - the correct way being YOUR way because, of course the DM is right. A couple of threads lately have been players asking innocent questions – Narenia asking about other continents in Vives, Phoenix_Dias on the items banning, or Chiron voicing an opinion on the state of the server – and the DM’s have attacked them, accusing the players of flaming, disrupting the server and deviating from the sacred PHB – anything to get the player to back down, it seems. The way things are going, the message given out is going to frighten any player into submissiveness in fear of being accused of powergaming or flaming. Can you blame some players for being confused on issues, the way we decide things but then decide not to tell the players for a couple of months?
Perhaps you need to learn a little PR skills. Don’t you owe it to confused players to explain their misconception in a fashion that doesn’t leave them feeling like feces or having to delete their posts because they feel you took it the wrong way? Can’t you just explain to them calmly that “Sorry mate, this is what we decided, but thanks for your question so we could clear the issue up – you want to be PM me about this so we can work it out?” Rather than the current method which seems to be to tell the player to f**k off and go and read the PHB. If you can’t do it, get a DM that can. But frankly, the impression I get is that some of you don’t respect our players. Some of the comments you say to players, in the forums, smack of condescendence and self-righteousness. You don’t respect them. You seem to think that they should all be grateful for this nice shiny little world you’ve given them. Wise up. Keep up this attitude of “I’m right and you’re wrong” and Vives will one day be an empty server.
DM’s aren’t right all the time, people. They’re mortals – humans. It’s about god-damned time some of them realised this. I’d like to think that if I make a mistake or say something offensive, I have the guts to back down and apologise. I’d like to think that if I’m not compatible with another player’s way of playing that at least I won’t ostracise them and call them everything under the sun and do my best to get them off. I’m not even going to pretend that there aren’t players here who I dislike. No DM can like everyone. But I still talk to them. I’ll still RP with them. I won’t boot them out of my RP quests or ignore them. It doesn’t always work – I’m not perfect. But at least, I do my dang best to keep my OOC feelings from the game. I think that there are DM’s here who aren’t doing that. There are DM’s who ostracise players for having different opinions from them. Who penalise players for not fitting into their ‘moulds’.
I don’t stand here to say that all the Vives DM’s behave in such a manner. It’s a minority. But even a minority can be hugely damaging to the happiness and security of players. Heck, it’s the minority that has been hugely damaging to my wanting to stay here. Only the need to finish off the plot of Malagard and the great fun I can have when not wallowing through politics has kept me here. Other than that…nothing keeps me here.
Hence, why I have written this. I really don’t give a dang about the consequences of posting it.
See you around.
-PF |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 06:31 PM |
I have no rebuttal, because I know the players know this isn't even the case. There's no need to reply when the obvious truth is in front of everyone else, that's just how it goes.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out...hate to break out the disenfectant spray.
~Fenarisk |
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 06:52 PM |
In a manner of speaking, your responce isn't unlike what PF is saying here.
"I know the players know this isn't even the case."
How do you know? I'm a player, I don't know. I should think that there should be grounds for a post like this to be made, the emotions behind it didn't come from nowhere. Why don't you share with me the "obvious truth?"
"Don't the door hit you on the way out.."
I love that mindset. It's always good to have that one person around that says "If you don't like it, leave, bye, have a nice day, and we won't lament your loss." How about somebody that says "I appreciate your concern for the future of Vives" and then goes on with "I agree with your position and feel as well that DMs should start treating players with more respect or "I disagree with your claims and I wish to cite instances disproving them, and will then pass you priority to cite your own instances in defence of your side the argument." Narrowminded blanket statements such as "I know the players know this isn't even the case" are seldom true.
Edit - Now, I will admit that I myself have not experienced any DM sass since I have returned. But I do agree that occasional information on official updates, including server updates and policy updates, it's high priority that these are displayed out in the open, not left for people to stumble across. Also, I've been having a severe amount of trouble having problems solved. I was told last week that my rental container would be fixed "in a day or two" and yet it's not fixed yet. Now I don't know if you've looked at it, and are working hard to determine the cure, or have completely blown me off. I'm inclined to believe the latter. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 06:57 PM |
"DM’s aren’t right all the time, people. They’re mortals – humans. It’s about god-damned time some of them realised this. I’d like to think that if I make a mistake or say something offensive, I have the guts to back down and apologise. I’d like to think that if I’m not compatible with another player’s way of playing that at least I won’t ostracise them and call them everything under the sun and do my best to get them off. I’m not even going to pretend that there aren’t players here who I dislike. No DM can like everyone. But I still talk to them. I’ll still RP with them. I won’t boot them out of my RP quests or ignore them".
This apparently excludes Pickston who was ostracised and booted from any events you had going on.
"I’m not perfect. But at least, I do my dang best to keep my OOC feelings from the game. I think that there are DM’s here who aren’t doing that. There are DM’s who ostracise players for having different opinions from them. Who penalise players for not fitting into their ‘moulds’."
That is the biggest crock of horseshit I have heard in a long time. I never did anything to you, never said anything about you and yet you ostracised me and my characters from any events you had going on, the one time you intereacted with my PC directly, it was with a 25th level plus CPC that was hostile towards him, insulted him,killed him and raised him over and over again with barely any RP occurring from the DMs involved, namely you and <deleted to avoid the inevitable flame war>.
"I don’t stand here to say that all the Vives DM’s behave in such a manner. It’s a minority. But even a minority can be hugely damaging to the happiness and security of players. Heck, it’s the minority that has been hugely damaging to my wanting to stay here."
No feces?.... You took the words out of my mouth with that last paragraph.Several of my closest player friends have left because of it already.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 06:58 PM |
I go off player responses and attitudes towards quests, areas, events, and general RP in the lands that have been PM'ed to me or put on the forums, or even put into the DM channel thanking us and telling us what a great time they are having...in my experience these have FAR outweighed the negatives (And if the negatives have true value or basis, we definately listen or even go into such matters more in depth if it needs to be fixed).
~Fenarisk |
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 07:59 PM |
PF,
Your message comes across as being written by someone who is still feeling angry, so perhaps it is not as constructive as it might otherwise have been. I know that you realise that simply complaining that things aren’t perfect without making any constructive suggestions is only ever going to be a flame and reflect badly on yourself.
I consider you a mature person, a good role-player, and someone whose presence here is a benefit to Vives. Neither DMs nor players are perfect, that’s a given. You know that DM’ing can be as frustrating as it can be rewarding, but all the DMs (and the good players) have Vives’ interests at heart, no matter what personal differences there may be.
Posts (and threads) like this cause so much damage. PF (and the others that have responded to the post), you all know better, you are doing yourselves a real disservice and you should feel ashamed.
You don’t think things are perfect? Nor do I. You want to talk about them sensibly, so we can make Vives even better? Let’s talk.
To anyone that wants to continue to post like this, don’t even bother pretending you have the interests of Vives at heart. Its obvious that you don’t.
Lytton |
ratemypoo.com |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 08:24 PM |
Perhaps...this is a disservice to myself. Maybe I should be ashamed of sinking so low to post this.
But I have tried to talk before, Lytton. I truly have. To quote a line that reached the top ten of the Dilbert quotes competition, "The company is aware that there is a communication problem but refuses to discuss it with the employees." I am so tired, so weary, of talking and not getting anything done that I feel that the only way I can possibly get any reaction, any at all, is to do this and bring things to the attention of everyone.
Well, see above posts for the predicted reactions.
I'm not the sole person thinking on this. There are players who are too frightened to say that they agree with me - and I don't blame them. Why draw the ire of others upon them when they wish to continue playing here?
I'll agree that the first part of my post was written in anger, directly after reading the thread that wound me up. However, after sitting on it for about two hours, I went back to calmly put forward my thoughts. Sorting out the player/player, player/DM and DM/DM divides is not going to be easy nor instant. No DM can please everyone. Some styles of playing, some DM's don't like. Some players chafe under the rules of certain DM's. Keeping them all happy - it's beyond tough.
I felt that I did try to offer a solution; maybe it kinda got lost as I edited and re-edited, heh. DM's need to start respecting players for being different and diverse. DM's need to present a unified front. For all the wishes for DM's to create a PnP world - it's impossible, because in PnP, there is but one DM, one DMing style, one idea of the perfect roleplayer. In a PW with many DM's - that needs to be respected.
Again, I stress, I'm not super human and I'm not invulnerable to my own OOC prejudices. I don't like having to get tough on players myself - but if I feel that it calls for it, I will. Being too light on players is just as destructive as being too tough. |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 08:42 PM |
I feel that the only way I can possibly get any reaction, any at all, is to do this and bring things to the attention of everyone.
balls... then I have fallen into your trap.
Well, see above posts for the predicted reactions.
People will always respond to a flame with a flame. They've been listening to too much Dave Mustaine era Metallica.
I'm not the sole person thinking on this. There are players who are too frightened to say that they agree with me - and I don't blame them.
If that's the case then we have a REAL issue. If any players have got an issue they don't want to post publicly, at least PM a DM you trust. Or PM me if you want a DM noone should ever trust. But players have to remember to keep things constructive, there will only ever be one winner in a DM/player FLAME war.
DM's need to start respecting players for being different and diverse.
I strongly believe that we all do, as long as we feel that the players respect Vives, respect the other players and respect the DMs.
Hey, if every player was perfect, every DM would be perfect too.
DM's need to present a unified front.
Totally agree with you. I think its an area we need to improve on. We're making progress too I think, but these things take time. The more DMs you have, the more democracy there is, the harder it is stay unified!
Personally, I think Vives is awesome. I'm not blind to the issues, but I think they're all minor in the scale of things.
Are you going to stay and lend a hand?
Lytton |
ratemypoo.com |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 09:52 PM |
| Phoenix has some real valid points and if you guys are that blind to them I really feel sorry for you. I Have know Phoenix for over 2 years and played in countless games and if this came out you really should listen and see why instead of pointing fingers and pretending problems don't exist. |
You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.
~Robin Williams
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 10:03 PM |
And if I could please make a small request...can you please continue this debate using PM's and/or email? I would hate for this to be the first thing a new player would see when logging onto the website. The debate lacks a constructive point and can only be divisive. I understand the need for communication, but this isn't the right kind.
Thank you,
Mykal |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 10:18 PM |
I've considered removing this post, but in the interest of free speech we've decided to let it stand, at least for now.
In any community of people, especially creative ones, there will be disagreements. This is to be expected. It is in the way those disagreements are handled that the true character of those involved reveals itself.
As you all can see, and as a prospective new player reading this can see, there is a bit of frustration in the world of late. I suppose you could call it growing pains, or evolution. Whatever it is, it's an opportunity for all of us to improve, both ourselves and our world.
I'll leave you on that thought. Nothing is ever perfect, no matter how much we wish it so. We can choose to try to improve our lot, or we can suffer with it. I'm of the opinion that it's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. |
Question Authority! |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 22 Mar 2004 11:54 PM |
Well said Landru.
*looks for matches* |
Humbly Submitted,
Sinjin Kane |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 01:40 AM |
A few thoughts.....
I feel that this thread has some interesting potential for producing dynamic reactions from all who read the visceral comments. This presents a two edged sword to cut both ways and great care must be used to wield it effectively. Let us not lose sight that there is probably more commonality amongst us than devisevness.
Now I think a donnybrook is good for clearing the air occasionally, as long as no one is attacked personally. Once personal attacks are initiated, it is hard to regain ones balance.
If I understand PF's original purpose for starting this thread he wanted to communicate a point. Out of respect for others, I will always try to filter out the anger and frustration to get at the base of their problem, mayhaps my fellow adventurers can do likewise.
at your service,
Jody |
After my 'tour of duty' in Vietnam, I truly learned what the following phrase means...."I'd rather be 'Lucky' than good...." |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 06:06 AM |
well..
I just dont get it why ppl post these kinds of flames -after- they leave and not before..
things could get fixed and then the person might not leave..
bah just ignore what I said.. I dont want ppl starting to say 'it wont happen it wont happen'.
now.. it is really easy to accuse the DMs for being wrong, even easier to say you was right.
sorry, but you can see Pick's reaction...
and there are DMs there inactive for a long time and came to vote on applications (while they voted on none for a long time) just to get players suspended - why? because they dont really like them.
It conerncs both you and Boffo - that are saying only others were wrong.
also - it is really nice to say nothing was decided and we only talked..
but decisions were made.. lets take 'Planes' for example..
there was more than one discussion about these.. and each time we decided that there are no planes at Vives. each time we -decided- that.. there was a majority and admin approval.. and each time you kept starting new threads or posting new posts about the subject.. saying nothign was decided and we should decide something - I duno if it was a mistake.. misscommunication or what ever it was.. or just a nice and easy way to disagree with the other DMs.
I can continue this and start pointing at things you did.. but I dont like to do these kind of things.
but it seems.. heck.. it doesnt seem.. that is what you are trying to do:
show the DMs in a bad light, while you are a saint.. the exact same thing goes for Boffo.
also.. players who are afraid to ask questions?
more than once I said ppl can always PM all DMs or PM Alosynth the contact person..
but almost -no one- did..
lately.. there were many 'negative' rant/critics - that does nothing but making ppl annoyed / angry.
while I agree that things could have been said in a better manner.. I also agreed it is importent they were said.
- about ppl asking things from the DMs and the things are not getting 'done'
sorry - but you are not the only players, and many players have their special requests.
things get done slow.. but they get done..
when we got more than one complaint about the rental chests.. we cant go and fix it on a case by case basis.. there is a problem with rentals chests and it takes time to fix..
I think it is fixed by now - but there are more problems coming from other directions.
and yet again I feel I am mumbling stuff - so I will try to reply more clear posts later.
(if there will be replies to mine of course =p )
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 06:18 AM |
well..
I just dont get it why ppl post these kinds of flames -after- they leave and not before..
things could get fixed and then the person might not leave..
I wont take part of this discussion though I might have something to say. Just wanted to say why people might now say stuff they wouldnt before they left.
Simple cuz when we were still here, saying something would get us THAT kind of things you pointed out, like DMs being out though still vote on a player they hadnt the time or the chance to see or another issues, and because -and this is obvious- when we are out we have nothing to fear, so we can speak what we really think. Its what I belive maybe Im wrong and this wasnt Picks case.
And Im not saying this is the right thing to do... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 06:56 AM |
Ice - that's exactly what I am talking about..
why should they fear to say what they want? especially in this case.. where PF had complaints directly troward the DMs - and could have disccussed and try to solve these in the DMs forums.
IMO it could have saved a lot of hard feelings on both sides
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 07:00 AM |
Well just so you know while I was out of the game I was still reading up on what was going on through posts and talking to other dm's so I was not clueless.
I also never stated that I was better than anyone else far from it we all can learn something from this otherwise I wouldn't have posted it but if people feel the need to take shots and pointing fingers at me feel free to if you think that will solve this problem. You know if I didn't care I wouldn't have wasted my time to even write these things or come back to check the boards.
|
You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.
~Robin Williams
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 07:14 AM |
Well just so you know while I was out of the game I was still reading up on what was going on through posts and talking to other dm's so I was not clueless.
I also never stated that I was better than anyone else far from it we all can learn something from this otherwise I wouldn't have posted it but if people feel the need to take shots and pointing fingers at me feel free to if you think that will solve this problem. You know if I didn't care I wouldn't have wasted my time to even write these things or come back to check the boards.
A. I am not pointing only at you.
- same thing goes for ppl who cant decide wether they are here or not.
they could say they will be here but wont be really active instead of storming out of the door
saying they will never be back -> and then comment/reply/w/e from time to time..
I am sorry.. I prefer they will stay.. but if they are out and say they are out they should be 'out'
(and no - I am not pointing this at you... I think those that this is pointed at know who they are.)
B. sorry but saying you leave cuz others are doing wrong kinda leave that impression.
but as you noticed I replied with this to PF's thread, and I dont think I replied to yours in that manner.
(mainly because she said nothing is ever decided.. maybe things doesnt work they way she wanted .. but it doesnt mean nothing was decided. - and yes .. I know there are a lot of talking.. but still - it doesnt mean no actions were taken.)
also - Boffo you left with rather positive feedback.. she is leaving with a door slam.
(and she did keep threating she will leave if things will be done not they way she wanted.. [e.g. if perma death will get IG and will be a part of DM quests {who ever read this - dont worry it was decided it wont - and if there will be perma deaths.. there will be warnings}])
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 07:31 AM |
First of all, Dens, I'd like to ask you where you see the part where I stated that I was leaving Vives. Because given the chance for things to be turned around, I would stay. The reason for the post above was to attract the attention of people who I feel have not takes the requests of players who are disgruntled seriously enough. My thought was, if a player's complaint can get washed away quickly - can such a thing be done with an ex-DM's post. This wasn't a parting shot as I left from Vives. No, this is more the drawing of the gun to let you know that the parting shot is ready.
And as to why I didn't bring it up in the DM forums, perhaps this is because that I have no faith in that what I would say would be dealt with in the manner that it needs to. Whenever I've gotten something done in Vives, it hasn't been by a civil discussion in the DM channel. Dens, I am past the point of talking. I have talked and talked and talked and talked. I've brought up my Vives in the DM channel. I've talked over deeper concerns with individual DM's and admins who I felt would take me more seriously. I've talked with players over the problems that they feel they are having. All the talking has acheived for me is a lot of good friends - but no real action. Well...here is my action.
And regarding the Planes problem, I kept bringing it up because, if I recall correctly, it was decided to have an alternate system that did fit in with the history; the intra-Vivessian 'pockets', as we called them. After that long argument in the thread where I did at last concede to a half-way point, I settled down to put my idea together into a thread. After a couple of constructive comments, some random comments that had sod all to do with the thread and the other posts 'gently' reminding me that there were no Planes in Vives, I left it to languish. I think it's still buried in the forums somewhere.
As for leaving with a door slam (i.e. no positive critism), well, if I peppered the original post with 'oh but this is so great about Vives!' I don't really think it would have had the impact. That and my then state of mind meant that I was unable to see the good points about Vives. There are good points about Vives. My DM'ed game on Sunday was one of the highlights of my DM'ed life. It's only that, as in anything, the bad points can vastly override the fun factor. And I think that there are people denying the bad points.
- Phoenix Flamehart |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 07:55 AM |
This has become a little bit of a war and not very constructive. Hence the parallel thread I have started - The Future of Vives Players.
The point is there is at least some feeling of disillusionment among the PCs because they feel afraid of complaining to DMs, particularly of certain PCs actions.
This really does need some careful consideration and not the bitch slapping that seems to be going on here. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 07:59 AM |
first - it doesnt sound right.. so maybe I should have rephrased myself.
but - As for leaving with a door slam (i.e. no positive critism)
not saying everyone who leaves without critisim is a door slam.. but I get you understand what I mean by it.
also - I dont really think this is the right way to approach things.
you say yourself that ppl dont want to tell what they feel cuz they are afraid..
you started this thread by saying 'read this while you can' before it gets deleted.
I dont really think that seeing a thread.. which as much as ppl might try not to.. (some are some arent) is getting filled with rather offensive flames..
how would that cause ppl to express their feelings? it does the opposite.
I cant say what you told to individual DMs/Admins because .. well.. you told them that individualy.
and sorry if the only thing I keep bringing up is the planes thing.. but that's the only thing I rememmber that you kept bringing up.
there was a decision to leave the planes.. saying there arent.
and as much as I can remmember I asked you to freeze Shaz'jen or to find another reason for him.. what later continued as a full written plot that was completely around planes.
and on that part - you were the ignoring side.. because even if I didnt tell you directly.. maybe I just thougt it need to be done and didnt post.. I duno..
you kept the plot / char running.. I am not saying that having plots if bad.. of course not!
but you knew planes do not exist.. and yet I heard you talking about sigil.. and gods.. and planes and what not IG..
the outcome of this is a player who creates a char saying it came from Earth. and then when she was told she cannot make such char she or someone else cant remmember exactly.. said 'But Shaz'Jen is not from Vives' - and then someone corrected it 'no no Shaz'jen was born in Vives but grew at other planes' ..
and then we start having problems.
that exactly what you are saying that other DMs are doing.
yet you ignore things yourself.
or about favouriting?
when someone reported that a player is doing something wrong you right away said you had enough with the player.. but when a PC that is closer to you did something? you started asking for 'evidance', for screenshots for logs for what not.. and then still said we shouldnt be 'against' the player..
sorry.. but I dont understand why someone would slam a door.. and start saying others are not right while he wasnt right as well - and in the same way actually.
Dens
P.s.
as I said.. if someone is leaving he need to say he is leaving..
from your post I had no idea what you are 'planning' to do..
Because given the chance for things to be turned around, I would stay
No, this is more the drawing of the gun to let you know that the parting shot is ready.
and again..
you threat and give conditions.. if you want to leave then leave..
if you want to stay and fix things - stay and fix..
but saying you want things to be changed.. -or else- .. what are you trying to get by that?
that's exactly what draws the "dont let the door hit you" ..
which again - does not contribute anything.. just make ppl annoyed.
P.S.s
and saying this is not a door slam cuz you are not leaving Vives..
you do leave the DMing.. so this is a door slam when you quit. |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 08:24 AM |
Dens, I'm not painting myself out to be a saint here. I'm not perfect. I do have issues with some players which, in hindsight, I should have treated with the same equality as I did the players I count as my friends. But that's hard to do, practically an inhuman task.
The Malagard plot was not written entirely around the Planes. It was just unfortunate that one of the central CPCs was from the Planes. But in the beginning, Shaz'jen was allowed by the DM's whom I asked to create him. I think it was three months before he was finally challenged, by at which point I wasn't going to be happy with the suggestions of 'stop playing him' or 'make him a loony.' I never saw your request to freeze him until a solution was found, and for that I apologise.
But this is one of my personal issues, and that isn't why I'm here posting. The issues that annoyed me much yesterday had nothing to do with the fact that I couldn't get my own way over the Planes and everything to do with the rude, callous way that players who either complain or deviate from the desired mould are told to like it or leave.
And just to clarify - I am staying until I feel that a final decision/discussion has been made on the points I have brought up. As I read, I get the distinct impression that not many have actually read my post for what it was meant to be and have taken it for a flame. Perhaps this is bad writing on my behalf. The fact is that no matter how I could have phrased or toned this post, it will be taken as a flame - and I don't intend it to be a flame, just a rather strongly worded opinion. If I had wanted this to be a mindless flame, I would have posted it in the Flames section and wouldn't have edited it for two hours before posting.
But the fact is that I am getting support on this issue. I will not name their names, nor post what they have said, because I'm not going to reveal them in respect of their wish to remain unknown. I will say that it is a bigger proportion of what even I was expecting. Whether you choose to acknowledge that or not is your decision. |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 08:45 AM |
Oh boy. Forgive me for skimming through the posts, by no intention of mine do I seek to rip quotes out of context. I just picked a few here and there to see if I could make a somewhat sensible post.
well..
I just dont get it why ppl post these kinds of flames -after- they leave and not before..
things could get fixed and then the person might not leave..
Above part is Dens' he raises a valid point. Complaints after the fact, in this case stepping down as DM, is not usually that constructive. Although it is the easiest way, and when frustrated not always one feels up for another lengthy discussion about he/she not being pleased with things as they currently are.
Understandable, yet I side with Lytton in this matter, pointing to the reasonable suggestions and advice he raised. It would have been so much better if there had been a final warning - if you will - that you were really ready to leave and be done with it. People then treating your arguments with disrespect and dismissing them, that would be utterly moronic. At this point, I can't really say who is right or wrong for that matter. As there has been no real 'final' talk, an all or nothing attempt.
Phoenix has some real valid points and if you guys are that blind to them I really feel sorry for you. I Have know Phoenix for over 2 years and played in countless games and if this came out you really should listen and see why instead of pointing fingers and pretending problems don't exist.
Above's being Boffo's. You are stating something very dangerous, because you know someone, you trust someone - cool. But I do not see how that combines or supports with PF being absolutely right and everyone else therefore possibly being blind to her points and ignoring them. If you read this thread and if you read other threads, even her own posts, she mentions a minority. So I just wanted to get it straight we are not dealing with some massive generalisation here. And if we are going to talk about blame, gather round, I got a ball of blame for each and everyone one. We are still in this together, be you player or DM.
Personally I can assure you it is a VERY safe bet to state that DM's are pretty concious of what is going awry in the mod. Knowing what is wrong and dealing with it are two different things. And as everybody might have noticed, things have not gone that smoothly with the mod itself. It requires drastic changes to help support several issued policies. Atm as a DM you are caught between two fires, we know the policies and we know how the mod screws some things up. Which is no excuse, more how I started to look at vives the last few weeks.
I have my own issues with things and still plan to put them forward, but I figured at this point we have bigger issues going on that require our primary attention and mutual undivided effort. Such as the huge lag, item policies, and various smaller problems which have a negative impact on the Roleplay in general. Also we are low in admins, the folk with the decisive voices. Makes it harder to mediate and decide upon matters.
In that light I find it unfortunate that you decided to step down, PF, and the way some points you put forward were put forward fuelled by frustration. But I trust to your reasons for making this decision, respecting it, as I trust to people reading this thread to be unbiased in their judgment should they feel they need to have an opinion about the topics discussed.
Again, stay away from generalizations where they do not apply. It is very easy to misread a specific complaint as something that goes for everyone. Other then that you can be your own judge.
*points to Lytton* I liked his approach best though.
Cheers,
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 23 Mar 2004 12:47 PM |
Wow! Quite a bit happened whilst I was working away to feed and clothe myself ;)
There are many Vaild points on this thread, and we are aware of the issues that face us..... however, as of late it has been difficult to address these due to a variety of reasons, one of which is the loss of 2 admins..... being Aria and Quietus (who still pops in now and again and maintains the server, but has become a father so obviously priorities lie elsewhere).
The mod was really started by myself Aria and Q, and with me having an incredibly hectic RL as of late (it -is- improving as I have said, but nevertheless my Job takes up a lot of my time during the Week), then things have moved at a Snail's pace. This is also in conjunction with me being the main Builder, which is what I love to do
Enough excuses anyway, I'm dreadfully sorry that people feel the way they do, but we will be making some positive changes for the better asap.
Feelings seem to have been running at boiling point... both on the players' and DMs' side, so let's try to remain constructive (I personally don't mind the odd whinge or moan, without those we could never improve..... but then again with each I like to see some positive solutions being put forward as a counter-balance :P).
Blah blah....... Basically I'm not very happy with the way things are at present either, and I, along with others will do our best to sort them out :)
Cheers
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
|
|
|
|
Re: Read This While You Can.
Posted: 27 Mar 2004 04:24 PM |
I'll just say this. I am only a player. I posted a comment about an action by a DM in the Flames section, becasue I thought it was heavy handed.
The thread got locked, and a message was put up to PM a certain DM.
Which I did.
And got no response.
So I PM'd again.
The response was essentially 'I'll get to looking at your concern when I get to it'
Nothing more.
So while I think MOST of the DM's here are great... I'm just another little person cheering what PF is trying to say here.
Cybella deRhiannon |
|
|
|