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You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 16 Sep 2007 02:53 PM |
I suggest putting this into a word document: it's a little easier to read.
I only started on the server in June but it seems to me that there is an inherent fault in the way the game is being run, leading to old players leaving and new players having trouble joining what is an excellent persistent world created with an equally good ethos. It appears that when Vives was first launched it worked well because everyone was at a similarly low level. Everyone was ‘useful’ there were mysteries that PCs did not know but which they wanted to find out and they had to work together to learn them.
At present there seems to be nothing much for PCs to quest for other than gold and xp. If a low level character has an ambition to see a location, find some information or recover a lost item then they need only ask a higher level character. If a high level character is wants something similar they just go off into the depths of hell itself and get it.
One of the few characters I see in game on their own in Tristan Vike. A (level 28) ranger/rogue/cleric it may have escaped your notice but this build is a one man party with optimal class feature combinations to boot. He has no need to work with anyone when he goes in most dungeons. Powergaming? Well perhaps, but if he’s roll playing properly (which I hope you will agree he is) not realy doing anything wrong.
But consider how this looks to a 10th level character. You can talk to him if you can reach him but what do you say? You can ask for help, for directions, or just try to wind him up but there is not much else you can do.
This makes roll play awkward for low level characters and usually involves either chatting in character or asking for something. For a high level character it seems to involve bartering for valuable items and roll playing the characters love life (basically equivalent to someone who has saved the world deciding to settle down as a merchant and start a family). Its all very well to try to encourage roll play by making it take a year or so to reach level 12 but it is not enough in itself.
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The most interesting and enjoyable roll play between characters of equal will occur when PCs have cause to work together but don’t want to. I know of a number of ways this scenario can be set up.
1) There’s always a bigger fish.
In other words if Vike is level 28 have him face say a power build Challenge Rating 35 Monster.
There is a problem with this method, characters will work together or die ie. They have no reason not to. They get on with the job and back to whatever they were doing It strikes me this method has been overused.
2) I don’t want to do this but…
Put characters in a situation where they must do something that is detrimental to the party objective for their own good or to help people they care about.
Many characters are VERY well suited to this. Any PC with an emotional connection with another character or who worships a demanding god can be directed into this dilemma.
I have seen this used a little but not nearly as much as it could be used.
3) Something about Tim seems different…
Have NPCs disguise themselves as PCs magically or otherwise and make sure you leave the PC in a tight spot when they login.
This method is difficult to pull of without inciting PvP but it can be done. I have not heard of this being used at all in Vives.
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Good RP between characters widely differing levels is harder to achieve. Essentialy this involves making sure the low level characters are needed without making the higher level characters punished. You may argue that you want players play for months before being ‘useful’ but you won’t attract many new players. I suggest the following.
1) You may be level 40 but you can’t be in two places at once.
Consider the plot in the second matrix film (such as it is). The superman has to walk through a door, he can’t open the door unless his friends blow up a power station.
This can easily be adapted to a PnP game but less easily (I would imagine) to an online persistent world as a DM can only watch one area at a time. I recommend the DM puts a tough but not insurmountable dungeon for the high level characters and leave them to it while watching the lower level characters (who are less likely to survive) this must be handled carefully to make sure the players don’t send one high level to do the work of 10 low level characters. I recommend putting switches or similar all over Vives and make the PCs work out the right combination.
This could require a lot of DM time so they may wish to leave this one.
2) Don’t tell anyone everything.
Set up the murder mystery scenario where collectively the PCs know the where to find the item but they all have reasons not to tell the others. Thus even a first level must be negotiated with because otherwise they could take their secret to the grave.
This definitely encourages roll play but again could require a lot of DM time. A way to set this up may be IC PMs or sheds of parchment scattered across Vives. Hard work? Perhaps. Clichéd? Certainly, but tried and tested.
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I am not saying that I don’t like Vives , that the DMs are unimaginative/lazy or play D&D perfectly. But at present there isn’t enough plot to go round. The situation that is left is essentially the that which would occure if a party continued for years: anyone new feels awkward and must be brought laboriously slowly up to speed, anyone who has been there from the beginning will have said all they have to say. There is a reason for the policy some servers use of making high level characters start again when they reach level 15-30: if you don’t you have to work round the consequences. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 16 Sep 2007 03:37 PM |
This is not a flame. Consider it something along the lines of 'Constructive Criticism.'
Don't get me wrong. Vives is a spectacular World. Of all the other PWs I've run around on, none have really held my interest as long, or have kept me as entertained.
But another thing I've noticed (to add to Frimble's list) as a large deterent for new players is the plot level expectations.
Seriously. Of the two main plots I'm aware of, both are intended for Epic-level characters. I've seen a single Atalan rip a pair of level 20+ characters in a matter of seconds. When you look at results like that, it's easy to see how a party of three or four times as many non-Epic characters will turn out.
I know I can't speak for everyone, but I find it extremely annoying, frustrating, and yes, even boring when one of my characters dies at every corner on a large quest. To me (others, obviously, will be different), participating in a major quest is almost always fun. When I can see a major quest I couldn't participate in come to a conclusion, I look forward to reading and hearing about it. But when I want to participate in a quest but can't, simply because the monsters are too high a level for one of my characters, it makes me grind my teeth.
Everything focuses on the players that have been around for long enough to break the experience plateau that everybody hits at the middle levels.
My first couple of months on Vives, I had to either sit in the OOC lounge or watch offline as a DM treated Lucius, Dana, and others to spectacular trips into some pit of Hell or other. I can't begin to count how often that's happened to me, or how often someone else told me about it.
And yet, I can count all the times I've seen a DM plot line focused on lower-level characters on my own two hands.
While roleplaying is a joy in and of itself, some positive DM attention (not spawning monsters with the sole intent of simply killing them) is always a good way to keep players netted.
It was very disturbing my first few months here. And I was privelaged to be around long enough to see Port Royale in its (non-existant) glory, and had access to some services and roads that newer players have missed out on. With the way things are, that experience plataeu has been stretched quite a bit; and yes, while powerleveling isn't the important thing here, it makes things more interesting and allows for different situations. I can only imagine how they must feel, especially when wandering into a city that's been in ruins for several months now.
Again, this isn't me flaming or blowing off anger. This is an observation that anyone is free to either take seriously or ignore completely.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 16 Sep 2007 06:29 PM |
At present there seems to be nothing much for PCs to quest for other than gold and xp. If a low level character has an ambition to see a location, find some information or recover a lost item then they need only ask a higher level character. If a high level character is wants something similar they just go off into the depths of hell itself and get it.
One of the few characters I see in game on their own in Tristan Vike. A (level 28) ranger/rogue/cleric it may have escaped your notice but this build is a one man party with optimal class feature combinations to boot. He has no need to work with anyone when he goes in most dungeons. Power gaming? Well perhaps, but if he’s roll playing properly (which I hope you will agree he is) not really doing anything wrong.
Well, this certainly caught my attention.
Sure, he may be a powerful character, he may know what he can do (what his capabilities are, anyway), but he is by no means invincible. Mr. Sprinkles, the DM of crazy fun, can certainly attest to it. A few examples, from recent:
-Solo trip up dangerous mountain, meets Ice Roc. Gets knocked down via Improved Knockdown, and I get to watch the Ice Roc eat through stoneskin and damage reduction as the HP bar goes kaput. Certainly a lesson learned from this: don't go alone.
-Himself, an Epic mage, and an Epic fighter visit a very nasty tomb. No one prepares protections vs. Death magic, they all fall down second fight. (yeah, Renter and DSM will never forget that trip, either).
-Trip coming back down from dangerous lich tower. Meets water elemental, crit fails a save, and ends up being killed on the spot. If it wasn't up to the work of the other person in his party, who came up with a miraculous plan in a moment's notice, it would have ended the same way as the Ice Roc situation.
-Trip with Epic level mage to place where the only way stuff could be killed is with divine and/or magic damage. Ended up doing VERY well, until the DM popped in a couple of things with Sneak attack, and it was over before we could figure out what was going on.
The point from this, is that even though he CAN go to places that most won't alone, doesn't mean he'll survive. Even if he brings people with him, I know how quickly something can turn drastic in a moment's notice. DM's, bad dice rolls, and mis-preparation can ruin a trip in a flash of a second. In fact, I prefer to have other people with me when I go places: it makes for a better time, and the ability to RP (and work together).
There are times where I feel that I want to RP the character, but there is no one around (similar to a post I_X made a while back: what is the point of waiting in some inn, typing maybe a sentence or two to emote just HOW the character drinks the ale.) In lieu of missing people, the world gets to go and be viewed. I'd rather venture with others, even if it means taking a new character through Carfax to investigate rumors of 'spirits'.
As for the character build? That was the character adapting, and learning tricks from certain other characters. I make an attempt to play the character well, not simply run around and kill everything. That, in essence, is what the EXP table is for. Certain characters will get bonuses depending on the stuff they do. Pick locks as a rogue, get exp. Kill stuff as a ranger/fighter/barbarian, get exp. That is why that system exists.
The same with Talion Deraith, who is another example of a one-man army-type character. I am sure that he did not take levels of wizard just so he could dominate everything that shows up red IG. His character is very well RP'd out, and makes a lot of sense, once one takes the time to learn the history and story. Even I don't know all of his story, but from the rumors around the water cooler, I certainly am not going to complain. Much :D
The point is, though the character may be good at what he does, there should be a good RP reason/character concept behind it. If not, then there is an issue. And though you can walk into certain areas alone, should never imply that you are going to survive on a server where a DM can ruin that character's day. In fact, I would rather have something ruin the character's day/get killed/get mutilated more often than *yawn* stuff to kill, loot, and leave.
-Ritz |
Tristian and Elghinn.
NWN logon =UltimatiumOmega
Lost item: Fire Bomb
Tristian Vike damages Erin: 19 (19 Fire)
Tristian Vike damages Tristian Vike: 7 (7 Fire)
Tristian Vike damages Kard Snyder: 10 (10 Fire) |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 17 Sep 2007 03:11 PM |
Sorry Ritz I didn't mean to get at Tristan I think he's a great character and I am sure you are not deliberately trying to play a power-build. I simply mentioned your character to point out that a world as dangerous a Vives without plots for low level characters or characters with a weak build will favor high level and power build characters.
When I joined the server at the suggestion of Theoclymenus I read the hand book and it looked as though a characters stats were meant to come second to their personality and approach to quests. I assumed that this meant most story lines would focus on RP. Instead it seems to mean that Characters should find excuses to talk to each other even though the plot is based around epic PCs fighting epic NPCs. This is all very well but it is not what I would call a PW where 'Role-playing is stressed above all'. In my experience characters do interact appropriately when they meet even in the most one dimensional dungeon crawl.
I agree that no character is invisible but that is a tactical rather than a roll play asset.
My highest level character (Eltarial level 7) cannot gain xp on her own and it would not really be in character for her to constantly be asking higher level characters to look after her. True she is not a particularly interesting character in herself but she would work as well as any other in an RP oriented plot.
Ed: As a response to X.I.'s post: Are you saying it isn't intentional for new players to have to go through hours of banter and petty thievery before they can take part in DM events? I really wasn't sure if idea of the vives xp system.
I intended my post to provide suggestions to DMs on how to deal with having characters of such varying level in a game without it inhibiting roll play. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 17 Sep 2007 08:10 PM |
| Oh, no insult taken. Merely just following up to what you had stated, and how no character is truly a safe one. |
Tristian and Elghinn.
NWN logon =UltimatiumOmega
Lost item: Fire Bomb
Tristian Vike damages Erin: 19 (19 Fire)
Tristian Vike damages Tristian Vike: 7 (7 Fire)
Tristian Vike damages Kard Snyder: 10 (10 Fire) |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 17 Sep 2007 08:26 PM |
Ed: As a response to X.I.'s post: Are you saying it isn't intentional for new players to have to go through hours of banter and petty thievery before they can take part in DM events? I really wasn't sure if idea of the vives xp system.
My entire post can be compounded to this:
While the server promotes roleplay above all, it's the higher-level characters that get all the positive DM attention (major plots, minor plots, random plots, and so on).
Lower-level characters can try and participate, but the chances that they're going to die or are just going to be completely useless to the party are very high.
To be included in the better plots, new players have to level their way up to a respectable level, which opens them to negative DM attention (monster spawns), which typically takes them down a tier or two. This leads to level grinding, which leads to boredom, which leads to people simply quitting Vives.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 17 Sep 2007 09:02 PM |
| I think my experience handily refutes the argument that only high level characters get attention. I have had only one character reach level 14 in my time here, and yet most of my characters have garnered DM attention. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 17 Sep 2007 09:19 PM |
The low-level grind IX and Frimble are talking about isn't intentional. I've been around Vives long enough to know that the low-high level differences wasn't always as critical as it is now.
Unfortunately, the difference is likely a direct result of how the PC population is built: the great majority are older players with high level or epic level characters, compared to a small minority of new and low level ones. The nature of the current plot lines running in Vives is focused on the high-level PCs, as well as many other events that occur, comes partially because Vives has to contend with the high levels. You can't run a plot about goblins knowing a level 25 or two can defeat the entire low-level goblin race single-handedly. The lack of new players and new characters doesn't offer a good environment for low level PCs, since they'll have to quickly work their way up to get involved with the going ons of everyone else (who is high level). The lack of active DMs, probably as a result of the work done towards Vives 2, makes it even more difficult to spread the focus towards the different levels.
In addition, I'd say Vives has grown so much over time that the XP pool simply spanned out of control. An epic level character is a norm these days, but I remember the times when having a level 12 character was an accomplishment - with higher levels reserved to the true veterans who've been around for a long time. The XP pool was smaller, the levels were harder to gain, and as a result the difference in levels were smaller - getting to just the mid-levels was no small accomplishment, even if you were powergaming towards it. In the present, I've seen a character capable of hitting epic in a couple of weeks; I've seen how a new player whom was never around before arrived during a month's absence of mine, and when I came back, he has already passed Alton's level (around ~20ish). While leveling rate differs based on various factors, I still don't recall it ever being possible to make these achievements in the past. The low-level grind pushes you towards jumping as high as you can as fast as you can, an idea which doesn't appeal to everyone (certainly not me), especially not those who are unfamiliar with Vives, the mechanics and/or leveling methods (or, boldly, powergaming).
Vives never favored "power builds" and high levels, though, and always stressed RP - it is the game mechanics which favor power builds and high levels, with Vives subsequently built around those mechanics. Like I said, lack of new players and new PCs leave the majority of the players high level, something which isn't as hard to achieve as it used to be; add to that the lack of active DMs and it becomes unrealistic to pay attention to one PC when there are a lot more who are high/epic level. It also becomes unrealistic to run a plot concerning orcs and goblins when a single epic level can single-handedly wipe out any of these races. Unfortunately, the world has to struggle with the rising levels of PCs and the increasing level differences.
No matter how much stress you put on RP, the game itself is still focused towards combat, so you can't ignore the fact that most characters are strong and high leveled; being the majority of the PC population, this leaves low level characters as neglected. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 10:35 AM |
Well...I'll contribute to this conversation a little. I've played on Vives on and off for a fairly long time. I have one of the 'epic' characters that seem to be talked about. I've also seen many, many characters surpass the levels that took me months to achieve in a week, as WA says. Is it about levels? Of course not...I haven't gone out 'leveling' since my first year on the server. I'd rather do what I do...make a story, talk to and try to involve new players...RP.
Now, many reasons contributed to why I stopped playing on Vives, my very first PW home. Please don't take any of my comments personally, they are simply my observations as a long-term player. I still love ya'll!
Firstly, RP. As I said above, as Macha I have tried to make it a point to RP with new players and get them involved. Now, I haven't been around a lot lately, because after the server started to get smaller and smaller player wise...there weren't that many folks to sit around and RP with on a consistent basis. Add to that the 'stigma' of being a high level character and the seeming reluctance of low levels to even talk to them (and yes, I've actually had folks say this to me), and it's difficult to come in game and sit alone.
I haven't gone out and 'adventured' in quite a while, either, for several reasons. Firstly, I think that Macha has effectively been told about every single area she could get to at one point "leave and never come back" after going there on an adventure in a group. Now, I can be a rebel. But...I'm also not going to find enjoyment in continuously dying after going to areas uber-monsters tell me never to return to. soo...
Now we have the added plot designs that much of the 'known' world that Macha knows well and has traveled regularly is closed off due to Midor plots and Atalan plots. I'm not a 'power-builder', Macha is a pure RP build that was built piece by piece with my at the time limited knowledge of the game mechanics. What most other characters her level could fight...kill her easily. Heck, sometimes the bears in Mirghul can kill her if I'm not careful.
Also, I have to say...with certain exceptions, many of the DM plots I've been a part of have felt very much like...I'm participating in a story already written, in which my characters actions have no effect unless they're within the 'part' written for me. I love you guys, and your stories are great...but I like to feel like I'm gonna make a difference when I do something. Playing an epic bard, as well, can be frustrating within plots. With a high lore, I've been asked during plots about things that one might think she'd know or have access to. Now, I could make things up off the top of my head. I don't like to do that. I have, in the past, put them off so I can 'research' and asked DM's in a pm for information...which, I'm sorry to say, generally has come past the time when the people asking need it. I understand that DM's have lives and not time to dedicate to this, but it's simply one of the reasons I was turned off from participating heavily in DM plots.
Finally...Macha has just come to a crux of her story for me. She has, like most characters that have been around a while, a long, complicated history that was unseen by any of the characters left on the server. Her motivations in RP are driven by that story. I found myself recently faced with the fact that, ultimately, any further story path for her on the server feels forced. It was time for Macha to retire. Thank you, Ro, for giving Macha what she'd always talked about - a nice, quiet, peaceful life of luxury. I like that better than a melodramatic death knell...though some might think it would suit the character better.
I have loved my time on Vives, and all the people who have shaped my character and her story, that grew way beyond any plans I ever had in ways I never expected. I just don't have it in me to slog through the for some people tedious, for me unbearable, process of leveling another character on an almost empty server. I come in game to RP, not to kill things. That's just my preference for playing.
I didn't mean for this to be my 'goodbye' message, just my reasons for not being around anymore. I want to thank -everyone- for my always fun time here. I'll make a new thread to thank specific folks so as not to hijack this thread. |
Trishy
Macha Sparrowsong - Song is my life
Coretta Alandar - Cleric of Midoran
Dekla Debena - whatever
Not all people who wander are lost.
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 11:08 AM |
I have to admit that a lot of the reasons Trishy had stated, or rather EXACTLY the reason Trishy had stated, are those which caused me to drop out as well. There's very little to add other than to agree entirely with each and every point she made.
Myself: I tried to make a new character but just as well couldn't stand the low level grind, as I've stated before. Yes, fighting is a part of the game I enjoy in the context of RP, but no I'm not in Vives to fight. There are far better places than Vives and far better games than NWN for hack and slash.
Trishy hit the bullseye. I couldn't have said it better, and I think one particular spot is to be taken under consideration: just like Macha, Alton has also been banned from every place by an ultimate superpower. I simply no longer went on random adventures because almost every place had one of these ultimate superpowers watching over them, with DMs implementing those superpowers as an unquestionable and invincible rule. Ritz in particular must've noticed how many times Alton turned down ideas for adventure for some reason or another.
Another point I think is worth considering is that it's a PW, and I find that an important part in a PW is the freedom of choice. The railroad goes ever on and on - but I don't find that particular approach to be fitting to an online PW, where the world is kept alive and changing by DMs and builders. Like Trish said, we are all on limited time, but it's discouraging to be railroaded in such an environment.
I still hope the situation will be different when Vives 2 comes around. Don't take it the wrong way, you're all great fun to play with, but I miss the times I had in earlier days. I'll never forget Alton, Trishy's and Sylune's adventure into the Great River, where instead of meeting an incredible superpower that kicked us out, we ended up meeting a sleazy little troll - the Mushroom King, Grog! - which spawned one of the better moments I had in Vives. This is only one example.
Cheers for you all, and I hope we'll get to play some more in the future. I haven't quit on Vives, at least not in the long run. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 12:53 PM |
Well, I'm not quite sure how to respond to all this. Suffice to say I may not agree with all that has been said here as I'm sure I have made clear in other posts on this and similar subjects. I would, however, be lying if I didn't say that the end to the guyver's story is already well on it's way to being penned. I knew Johe would be retiring about six months ago, but wanted the story to have closure for anyone out there who "might" still be reading it. The reason Johe is still around is simply because the story isn't quite finished yet.
As to why Johe will be retiring? it has nothing to do with anything that I have read so far in this thread. I am looking forward to Vives 2, yes, but only because I started Vives 1 as a player who played 5 days a week and then, when I got married and the stork delivered my bobbins to me that decreased drastically. It was difficult to maintain the style of the guyver under those circumstances. In Vives 2 I'll be coming in with the same restrictions and that will help create a character who can be consistent . When the guyver DOES retire it most certainly will not be because of DM plots or anything like that. Firstly because that would be an admission that the evil mists of evil in fact won and that would be disasterous!Secondly I would have to comment that while some things may appear to be "railroading" it has been my experience that life is what it is, how we react to it is what makes things interesting.
You see in any D&D type setting, things will always build up and become more intense until it may become almost overwhelming. But that is not the fault of the DM's, they are in a lose lose situation as far as this is concerned. Too much, and the confusion begins, but too little, and the natives become bored and restless. The fact is that "little jonny" will extoll RP, and say that vorpal blades +12 of godslaying are the bane of a PW, but deep down inside "little Jonny", really wants one, hells more than that he wants the ONLY ONE. This is the nature of the beast, and as someone who has been a DM for a very long time, I would like to commend the DM's for riding that fine line and trying to keep everyone entertained if not always happy throughout the long, rich history that is Vives :)
If I had ANY words of advise to give for the next generation of Vives DMing it would be this...
Extended times of peace/ smaller more menial quests, in between epic happenings in my opinion, would go a long way to keeping stability in the storyline of a PW. Allow your players time to catch up on Lore IG, not by reading the boards.
There, that's my piece... gonna miss Macha,but I have a feeling she won't be too far away ;) |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 12:55 PM |
With regards to Trishy's comment on Bardic Knowlege
When I DM (In PnP) I encourage players to make things up. The game always seems to have more depth when they do.
I have a question for the community as a whole:
----------------------------------------Does a plot in NwN have to involve fighting?---------------------------------------- |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 01:03 PM |
We're all listening (DM's and such that is), and taking on board comments made.
Vives 2 will satisfy many of the comments/suggestions on this thread. |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 01:32 PM |
Perhaps railroading was an extreme way of putting it, but I do agree with Trish's comment that I feel my character's decisions matter little in the big run of DM plots, and I can tell for certain that in some cases this is true and not just a feeling.
* * *
As for Frimble's question: "Does a plot in NwN have to involve fighting?"
I might be disagreed upon, but for me in most cases the answer is: yes, yes, yes and again yes.
It doesn't have to, but if I wanted a glorified chatroom I'd play something like The Sims or other such games. Fighting takes up a large percent of the game's mechanics. Most of the rules and the great majority of the character sheet is focused towards fighting or a variant of fighting. Most games are about fighting, involve fighting or any other kind of competition. It's the competition which makes games interesting and appealing - one of the very definitions of the word 'game' is 'a contest to determine a winner'.
NWN is a game in which the competition is, for a large part, fighting and combat. Most of the game's mechanics are built around how combat works in all its aspects. You can ignore that, you can make it into a glorified chatroom, but then why would anyone buy NWN in the first place?
Role Play isn't the opposite of Combat, and I personally would get very bored without a mix of the two. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 01:50 PM |
| I just wanna second what Johe said. Extended times of peace are a must, because there are often times when I felt, "Oh noes, if nothing happens, the world will end!" "*Sigh* Again?" Action is a good thing, but it doesn't always have to be a grand scale. One of my favorite DM quests was actually my first one, when an NPC little girl walked up to me lost and asked me to walk her home. It was amazing, and felt like it gave the world depth. Small things matter a lot, and it's a lot of small things that make the big things ;o |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 02:40 PM |
Well, as a mid level non-epic character Ashe is more powerful than many his level would be (dang the temptations of power building). However, as I played Vives I found that it was almost essential to make a build like this in order to survive with the higher level people.
When it comes to being killed over and over again by uber creatures, it bothered me briefly until I sort of ended up with a roleplay reason for Ashe surviving (The whole soul being elsewhere thing). I enjoy the killing sessions but it's no secret that Ashe tends to hang back and poke things with arrows, especially if things are stronger than him (which they usually are).
At the same time I love the roleplay element and often find myself wishing there were more - Ashe is a pain to roleplay sometimes as I often find myself typing out a response and then realising Ashe wouldn't feel that way, because he doesn't feel. I would like some closure on the situation he is in (along with finding out what on earth was going on with that guy that was looking for him) and I have an idea of what I would like the result to be but I can't really see it happening, especially with the apparent winding down of Vives.
There is one thing I am itching for and that's a quest that brings out the inner rogue. Sure, Ashe is now almost exclusively taking ranks in shadowdancer but I would love to do a quest where he has to sneak somewhere, picking locks and disabling traps as he goes possibly with no combat at all.
I'd try to do more to RP from a player point of view, organising things to happen but Ashe isn't really a suitable character for doing so. He wouldn't start random conversations if he didn't have a reason to and especially not if he didn't know them. I guess this is another reason I would like the storyline about his soul summed up (Although I still want some quirks :P) |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 03:15 PM |
Upon first getting into the server I noticed that crafting was very hard, I believe a new char or just anyone should be able to craft easily without having to go across the world for dyes n such.. but I wanted to help Trish not simply kill her char off so I did the best I could.
*Steals Trish away* |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 03:21 PM |
Upon first getting into the server I noticed that crafting was very hard, I believe a new char or just anyone should be able to craft easily without having to go across the world for dyes n such.. but I wanted to help Trish not simply kill her char off so I did the best I could.
*Steals Trish away*
I think the hardship of crafting works very well for Vives.
I don't agree with the idea that crafting, of any form, should be an easy thing. You end up with one-man factories forging masterwork mithril weapons and armor to supply an entire nation. Dyes aren't that hard to get, but they're not all in the same place, which also makes sense. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 03:25 PM |
To Tasra's point...I agree sometimes less is more. Trouble doesn't always have to be on a global scale...and smaller more manageable issues cropping up with more frequency would really give regional locales more flavor.
Along the same lines, though I expect disagreement, I don't like how the threats in the world match the strength of the characters in it. I prefer 95% of the foes filling a low level bracket, 4% intermediate, 1% insanely hard and a few unkillable. In terms of realism, that's how I would expect things to shake out...more goblins--less slaads.
If epic level characters are bored, I expect that's kind of like what being epic level is. Either that or they accept a different role in the world than just running around killing things.
*sigh, work is picking up...gotta go* |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 03:26 PM |
| Though I only meant crafting outfits/helms. Not actually making something. |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 06:33 PM |
To Tasra's point...I agree sometimes less is more. Trouble doesn't always have to be on a global scale...and smaller more manageable issues cropping up with more frequency would really give regional locales more flavor.
Along the same lines, though I expect disagreement, I don't like how the threats in the world match the strength of the characters in it. I prefer 95% of the foes filling a low level bracket, 4% intermediate, 1% insanely hard and a few unkillable. In terms of realism, that's how I would expect things to shake out...more goblins--less slaads.
If epic level characters are bored, I expect that's kind of like what being epic level is. Either that or they accept a different role in the world than just running around killing things.
*sigh, work is picking up...gotta go*
I completely agree that sometimes less in more. I'd also like to see more "mundane" happenings and less "end of the world" stuff.
However, in the spirit of not placing limitations, what's to stop the epics from squishing the mundane like little bugs? Goblins are so weak a single epic fighter could drive the whole race extinct with enough time and effort.
I think it's important not only to keep the plots and quests and events in line, but also to have good control over the XP pool and character level. If the XP pool grows too big, characters can easily drink from it and grow to crazy levels in crazy times. Not to mention that I am against epic levels altogether - the greater the level range grows, the more a DM or builder has to contest with these levels through plots and creatures almighty.
Vives used to have a very good leveling curve, where it would slow down greatly once you get to mid levels of 10-12. I find levels 10-12 the best levels to play a persistent world in, for the same reasons the Order of the Stick author found them good for his heroes: powerful enough to have a bunch of different storytelling options, weak enough to run away from the greater things thrown at them. In my opinion, the cap should be level 20, with folk looking at that level the same way a current level 20 would look at level 40. There are other ways to allow for further character growth aside from epic levels and without letting things get out of control.
Vives has done a great job improving and expanding since I first came here, but expanding too much too much spins it out of control - many great empires have fallen like that, and I think Vives has already encountered its own Russia . |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 08:47 PM |
| I agree with WA's level pool thing. 10 - 12 have always been some of the most fun levels in my experience, and I don't see a reason for people to go past 20, with that taking quite a very long while to get to itself. |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 08:52 PM |
How about a Pwipe followed by a level restriction?
*grins insidiously*
((Just so you know, this is a joke...unless you really want one, in which case, we may be able to deal.....)) |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 09:01 PM |
| I wouldn't do it for Vives 1, simply because it's so close to the end game. But, part of the reason I'm looking forward to Vives 2 so much is that it WILL be a complete wipe, everything being fresh. And as for a level restriction? Yah, I wouldn't be disappointed to see one implemented. |
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Re: You Got Problems? I Got Solutions. (or Suggestions anyway)
Posted: 18 Sep 2007 10:32 PM |
Ok...
This is the last time I am going to say my piece on this, as I am relatively sure most of you know where I stand on it. Leveling, wether people are inclined to admit it or not, is part and parcel of the game. There needs to be a feeling of "getting somewhere" or the enjoyment all starts to unravel. I would even be willing to wager that, when looking back fondly on levels 10-12, and wishing for the "fun" of the good old days, that those of you who pine away for those times seem to forget that part of what made those levels fun was GETTING THROUGH THEM and actually moving on to 13. If the black swirling mists we call DM wish to make it harder to get to those levels, then so be it. But to put ANY limit on levels of ANY kind, would be a diservice to the game, it's players, and our fine DM crew.
To the game because it would limit our builders as far as nasty environs to throw us into while still giving us the minutest chance to survive.
To the players because , frankly, RP is the driving force behind why I have played Vives, and why I have stayed all these years, BUT, no kind of reward for effort put into ones character would get stale after a while, I feel strongly about this no matter what the best intentioned may say or think at THIS stage of the game, I truly believe it would wear on player morale if there was no advancement.
And to the DM's because I find it hard to believe that any who have made it to the epic levels and been DM'd by these blood thirsty buggers, could honestly say that any one of them have not been capable of challenging, enraging, and entertaining us.
Then there is the question of the "epics" leaving the "lower levellers" behind, and an almost "lower class/upper class" senario developing. Well...frankly, again I must say,(sarcastically)Boo bluddy hoo. When I started on Vives, I was a "junior" for a very long, and admittedly, annoying time. Isn't that just the way life is though as I have mentioned before?
Persistance, roleplaying, and befriending those who would be befriended, as well as being willing, (and of course able), to play a supporting role took Johe a long way in Vives 1. The Vives crew have labored long and hard to make this a realistic, social world. To turn it into a "play nice/we're all equal/ your ok, I'm ok/ kinder, gentler" kindergarten IMHO would be a joke.
IF everyone is agreed that RP IS the most important thing in Vives, which I have taken great pains to mention before IS a fantasy world. THEN it SHOULDN'T matter what the maximum level is. If one has an issue with the abilities of a level 20 warrior, or cleric, then one shouldn't be playing a fantasy game, I mean really, if you can buy a 12th lvl cleric raising a dead man, I'm not sure what else in the higher levels would be so outlandish as to trump that, especially concidering no matter what it is, the aforementioned cleric would be able to raise you from any ill effects that may come your way. Pining for when we were level 10 or 11 is like saying, "Yaknow, I miss being in 7th grade, those were good times, times of wonder, discovery and excitement, I wish I could go back there." but the fact is that all you have experienced up until now, has changed you, and the "wonders" you experienced for the first time then wouldn't be the same if revisited, AND ,I firmly believe, would become tedious, and annoying if you were "kept" there by DM restrictions.
That's my bit, I plan to enjoy vives 2, and hopefully come up with a great story, and I hope the same for everyone else who plays it. My warning is, any restrictions on the world will stifle that story. Place them wisely. |
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