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Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 02 Mar 2006 06:28 PM |
| http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/02/catholic.town.ap/index.html |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 02 Mar 2006 06:40 PM |
Don't you have some silly old piece of paper called "The constitution" to stop things like that?
-Barnas |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 02 Mar 2006 07:08 PM |
Wanst Midor already based on your country in general , alright maybe just the far right of your country...
But more seriously....
" .... Monaghan envisions 11,000 homes and 20,000 residents." , then
" .... in Boston, Monaghan said that in his community, stores will not sell pornographic magazines, pharmacies will not carry condoms or birth control pills, and cable television will have no X-rated channels. "
He'll never get 20, 000 like that...
Now if I was a rich CEO... you'd only get 3 channels that weren't porno ... condoms everywhere... and abortions maditory ... yes.. maditory... I could jack property taxes up through the roof and it'd still grow to be the biggest city in florida within 4 years |
~ Nay'Finn |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 02 Mar 2006 08:56 PM |
Wanst Midor already based on your country in general
Actually, if you want to get technical, the British monarch is both head of state and head of the Church of England... at least here we have the pretense of separation of church and state ;P |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 02 Mar 2006 09:03 PM |
Wanst Midor already based on your country in general
Actually, that's pretty darn astute of you, Nathan. Though it wasn't 100% based on the US, of course. There are many other influences that you can feret out if you look hard enough. |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 02 Mar 2006 09:32 PM |
Actually, that's pretty darn astute of you, Nathan. Though it wasn't 100% based on the US, of course. There are many other influences that you can feret out if you look hard enough.
Oh, come on. It's based on Star Wars Empire. Gotta be!
Righteous Swords? Storm Troopers?
Vidus? Vader?
Yes! In fact, whenever I read a Midor post, I always picture the text scrolling into the distance! Try it; it's very dramatic. |
Willom Wilde--Actor, Playwrite, Head of Wilde's Vials, and fearful of all things cheesy
Califus Sarten--Mercenary for Hire
Bennigan Songsinger--Brooding bard. |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 02 Mar 2006 10:27 PM |
Don't you have some silly old piece of paper called "The constitution" to stop things like that?
-Barnas
No, they have a piece of paper that allows such things to happen. It's a rather remarkable document. Read it.
No one is being forced to live in this town (which doesnt exist quite yet as it is a work in progress), or to buy property. It is under local control according to the way the residents will want it to work.
If any American chooses not to live there, or to live there, they have the freedom to do so, and they have the freedom to do so without the interference of the state or federal government.*
No other country allows such freedoms that I am aware of.
- Paul
* = of course, the consistent erosion of the strength of the constitution by federal courts and politicians that have no respect for their office makes this more of a theoritical rather than actual premise. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 03:19 AM |
Wanst Midor already based on your country in general
Actually, if you want to get technical, the British monarch is both head of state and head of the Church of England... at least here we have the pretense of separation of church and state ;P
*grins* True enough, good ol' Henry V111! I'm not a church/temple go'er, although I like to think I am a 'spiritual' person. When I went to school, it was a state school, and they were very much practising Church Of England. owever these days my daughter attends a state school and a great many of them are no longer any specific religion. Instead, she learns about all the faiths that are in her school, there are over 200 different spoken languages (not being taught you understand) amoung the students. The school normally have a play or some assembly thing where they demonstrate what they have learnt about a particular faith, or Rememberence day etc. I like that a lot, they know that they all share different beliefs, but instead of seeing it as 'different' they celebrate that fact, and what they do have in common. Course there are always those parents who refuse to allow their children to participate, even passively to certain religions celebration plays, but that is their choice.
I'm not really sure which, COE or RC is the most dominante in this country. As for the Queen being head of the Church, yeah, but she does not have the power good old Henry did, my gosh, remember the King who abdicated so he could marry a divorcee, Edward? I mean, that was the whole POINT of the creation of the COE wasn't it?
As for this new town in Florida...hmm, well why not? don't the Mormans have Salt Lake City? (not sure if they restict anything) and what about those other what are they called? that don't allow any modern day machinery etc?
I don't imagine that I would live in this new town, but I bet there are plenty of Catholics who will, and to them, such restrictions really are nothing new to them, in fact, it's most likely the closest thing to heaven on earth, wouldn't you say? |
Moon |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 08:42 AM |
The main challenge here will be what happens if this town tries to access public utilities. Since some utilities are provided by the state government, I bet the argument will be made that by providing said utilities (read: water, sewer, etc) the goverment is indirectly promoting a religion. There's also the question about accepting state funds for things like road improvement and social services. I would like to see the plan that either merges all these things legally or provides these services privately. Now that'd be impressive.
As Pdawg said, the people who live in this town are not being forced to live there. Not only that, but they have the option to leave if they so choose. This is hardly a dictatorship in action. It's just a group of like minded individuals getting together to form a community of their own choosing.
There's no difference between this community and that of an Amish or Menninite one except for the possiblity of access to state and federal money. I think this town would be wise to avoid taking those monies as much as possible, though realisticly that's unavoidable. |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 08:47 AM |
I wonder what the views would be if it was to be a Town centred around Islam. Somewhat different I would think Not from our community here, but the US population in general perhaps.
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 08:53 AM |
We have a Jewish community that's exactly one square mile of Orthodox Jews.
They're pretty much a completely seperate town, complete with police department, and so on.
It's pretty crazy. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 09:02 AM |
I wonder what the views would be if it was to be a Town centred around Islam. Somewhat different I would thinkNot from our community here, but the US population in general perhaps.
- Ara
Doable? Certainly. As long as the laws of the town do not try to override state or federal laws.
What will happen is some joker will move into town, agree to the rules, then make a federal case of it over this and that ("help me, I'm oppressed"). These days, the federal government cannot resist sticking their nose into places it doesnt belong. The original intention of the constitution would have been to tell that joker to move on.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 09:07 AM |
I wonder what the views would be if it was to be a Town centred around Islam. Somewhat different I would thinkNot from our community here, but the US population in general perhaps.
- Ara
I wonder if that's possible. A real Islamic community may insist that Sharia law be imposed. Sharia law has some direct conflicts with the Consitution and U.S. law.
Still, Sharia law is practiced in some parts of the U.S where strick Islamic cultures have taken root. It's unsanctioned by the government, however, and not widely advritised, so it falls under the freedome of religion.
I really don't care what any community does. So long as they respect the laws of the United States, then I say let them be.
What will happen is some joker will move into town, agree to the rules, then make a federal case of it over this and that ("help me, I'm oppressed"). These days, the federal government cannot resist sticking their nose into places it doesnt belong. The original intention of the constitution would have been to tell that joker to move on
(-credited to Pdwalker)
That goes back to the question of wether the Consitution is a "living document" or not. If it's living, then the original intention of the Consitution doesn't matter. What matters is how it's grown and changed to meet the today's needs.
After all, if we went with the original intent, then the only people who could vote would be the white, landed males of the nation. |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 09:24 AM |
Sharia Law can live quite happily with most Western Countries, I know it does in many places in Europe but also here in Canada, and pretty sure it would be fine within the US (no doubt it is already as there are Muslims there already).
Sharia in a modernised, not strictly orthodox sense, shouldn't pose any problems to the constitution.... not sure what in Sharia would be violating the constitution though ;)
That are far great er atrocities commited in the name of "religion", one example would be extremist sects of the Mormons who freely practice polygamy, and where many many cases of child sex-abuse have been reported ;)
- Ara |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 11:20 AM |
Sharia in a modernised, not strictly orthodox sense, shouldn't pose any problems to the constitution.... not sure what in Sharia would be violating the constitution though ;)
Precisely |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 12:23 PM |
I really don't care what any community does. So long as they respect the laws of the United States, then I say let them be.
Ah, there's the rub, isn't it? Because in the United States, the law of that land is that NO government, self-imposed or otherwise, shall limit the freedom of speech. At the moment, it is also that every adult woman shall have access to birth control and abortion services.
As for this whole like-minded business, remember that not everyone chooses where they live. Some professor at this University might be thrilled at living here, but his sixteen year old daughter who finds herself pregnant because she didn't have access to proper birth control.. that's a whole different issue.
It's a complex issue, and one that I suspect will have far-reaching consequences if anything does get brought before the Supreme Court. Makes for interesting conversation, though. :) |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 12:36 PM |
There's plenty of countries which don't respect the right to choose and various other civil liberties.
People who want to live like this should move there.
The "western world" has fought for, and our forefathers have died for, a civilization where people are not forced to live in a place where people are tunneled and brainwashed down a certain path.
For that reason, I really think that any "community" like this should be done out in the middle of some desert, rather on the land which people fought to have purged of such... fundamentalism.
That town to me reads like a fundamentalist dictatorship, with its own government. I hope it gets shot down.
Why'm I so riled up sounding? I just think that people should be able to choose.
I also think that, given the existance of STDs- especially AIDS/HIV- any attempt to restrict the sale of condoms is about as foolish, stupid, naive and generally moronic as you can get.
Don't agree with them? Don't use them. Don't force that on anyone else.
If anyone gets an STD in that town, they should be able to sue the guy who set it up. Maybe that'll learn him about real life, where a moral stance that contraception is a bad thing meets a world where STDs can kill you.
To the same extent, the law is that people can have abortions in the US. He shouldn't be able to stop that. Whether or not you agree with aboritions is moot- you have to respect the law. I honestly believe that whilst abortions are something that should be taken very seriously indeed, stopping women having an induced abortion when a mother's life is in danger or the baby will die anyway is again an absolutely callous stand to take.
And so on, and so forth.
I hope this guy's fundamentalist dystopia falls at the first hurdle. Ugh. Way to go back to the middle ages...
-Barnas |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 12:40 PM |
I really don't care what any community does. So long as they respect the laws of the United States, then I say let them be.
Ah, there's the rub, isn't it? Because in the United States, the law of that land is that NO government, self-imposed or otherwise, shall limit the freedom of speech. At the moment, it is also that every adult woman shall have access to birth control and abortion services.
Actually, the Constitution only regulates actions by the national and state governments in regard to free speech. Which means you're technically right, but nto because the Consitution regulates "self-imposed" governments, but because federal and state law supercede all other law.
The law doesn't necessarily say that woman have a right for access to birth control and abortion services. It says that such services are not illegal. If there was a right involved, then the government would be inclined to actively provide or facilitate said services. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the case.
As for this whole like-minded business, remember that not everyone chooses where they live. Some professor at this University might be thrilled at living here, but his sixteen year old daughter who finds herself pregnant because she didn't have access to proper birth control.. that's a whole different issue.
Wow...that's an excellent point. Just what are the rights of minors in these situations?
It's a complex issue, and one that I suspect will have far-reaching consequences if anything does get brought before the Supreme Court. Makes for interesting conversation, though. :)
And you're right, a very interseting conversation. |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 12:46 PM |
The law doesn't necessarily say that woman have a right for access to birth control and abortion services. It says that such services are not illegal. If there was a right involved, then the government would be inclined to actively provide or facilitate said services. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the case.
I'm certain that at least in some states, all pharmacies are obligated to provide morning after pills and condoms- IE basic contraception. I think it comes out of the fact that pharmacies have to be able to fill all common perscriptions, and at least some contraceptions can be perscribed- so they have to be stocked.
Wal Mart recently lost a judgement- having not stocked them because they "wern't in sufficent demand" or somesuch in one state. Three women sued, and Wal Mart was told that it can either start stocking, or stop having pharmacies.
-Barnas |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 01:09 PM |
Another fine example of why we won't shop in Wal-Mart :D As Retailers go, they're the scum of the earth ;)
- Ara |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 01:24 PM |
The law doesn't necessarily say that woman have a right for access to birth control and abortion services. It says that such services are not illegal. If there was a right involved, then the government would be inclined to actively provide or facilitate said services. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the case.
Actually, what happened in Roe v. Wade was the Court extrapolating a "Right to Privacy" from the 14th and 9th Amendments. Functionally, the ruling states that terminating a pregnancy is a right that the government cannot fully prevent a woman from exercising - they may regulate the practice, but they cannot make it impossible. What is outlined in the article would go against this Supreme Court ruling, and the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment means that this would be an illegal intrusion by government into a citizen's rights.
You're also talking about the difference between so-called "positive rights" and "negative rights". True, the right to abortion is not a positive right - the state is not compelled to provide abortion services. However, it is clearly a negative right according to Roe v. Wade - the government cannot prevent someone from getting one, which is exactly what this dude plans to do in this community.
As for the rights of minors in these cases, it varies from state to state... in California, we just defeated a proposal in November that would have required women under the age of 18 to obtain a parent's consent to have an abortion. Florida is a fairly conservative state; I would expect a minor to have very limited access to abortion... but again, it is illegal for the state to make it completely impossible. |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 01:28 PM |
Actually, what happened in Roe v. Wade was the Court extrapolating a "Right to Privacy" from the 14th and 9th Amendments. Functionally, the ruling states that terminating a pregnancy is a right that the government cannot fully prevent a woman from exercising - they may regulate the practice, but they cannot make it impossible. What is outlined in the article would go against this Supreme Court ruling, and the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment means that this would be an illegal intrusion by government into a citizen's rights.
You're also talking about the difference between so-called "positive rights" and "negative rights". True, the right to abortion is not a positive right - the state is not compelled to provide abortion services. However, it is clearly a negative right according to Roe v. Wade - the government cannot prevent someone from getting one, which is exactly what this dude plans to do in this community.
As for the rights of minors in these cases, it varies from state to state... in California, we just defeated a proposal in November that would have required women under the age of 18 to obtain a parent's consent to have an abortion. Florida is a fairly conservative state; I would expect a minor to have very limited access to abortion... but again, it is illegal for the state to make it completely impossible.
*grins* Well done, VK. |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 01:29 PM |
Sharia in a modernised, not strictly orthodox sense, shouldn't pose any problems to the constitution.... not sure what in Sharia would be violating the constitution though ;)
Given that Sharia Law doesn't recognize the right of trial by jury, endorses mutilation and death sentences for crimes like adultery and blasphemy, doesn't use a grand jury to indict people, doesn't recognize the supremacy of secular governments, uses a specific religious text as legal precedent... it's actually in violation of just about every amendment in the Bill of Rights. :) |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 02:55 PM |
"Given that Sharia Law doesn't recognize the right of trial by jury, endorses mutilation and death sentences for crimes like adultery and blasphemy, doesn't use a grand jury to indict people, doesn't recognize the supremacy of secular governments, uses a specific religious text as legal precedent... it's actually in violation of just about every amendment in the Bill of Rights. "
Yup, that's why I mentioned the "modernised and not strictly orthodox" phraseNumerous Western Countries have proven that Sharia Law and the Government/Bills etc of those Countries can co-exist alongside one another, without much (if any at all) contradiction.
Sharia Law, like many other religions and religious texts is consistently discussed/reformed, as taking into account the shere complexity and amount of information. Many Hadith completely contradict the Sharia Law.......... so It's really a case of adopting the law sensibly and according to modern-times like the majority of Muslim communities do (one of the more extreme examples would, of course, be the Taliban, but then those idiots are really just extremists as you might find in any other religion).
- Ara |
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Re: Help! They're building Midor in my country!!
Posted: 03 Mar 2006 03:25 PM |
To me it seems like Thomas S. Monaghan is protesting against the current laws in the US, instead of trying to stop the sale of condoms or stop abortion all around the country. The citizens of the town are still able to leave and come back again, so it's reasonable to assume that they can buy condoms or get an abortion out of the town.
This will probably mean that more people won't use protection, and will find it difficult to get an abortion. This is no different, and in fact is probably worse, to what happened in a state in the US (I forget which one it is) where protestors have caused every single abortion clinic within the entire state to shut down, meaning people have to go interstate to get an abortion.
Maybe Thomas S. Monaghan is merely trying to show the world that a community like this is actually possible, or provide relief for those people who are feeling the strain of living in a world of temptations. Also, by doing this, he might be able to get people to think more deeply before having sex when they are ready for the consequences. |
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