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Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 12:58 PM |
Hello all,
First and foremost, I want to thank everyone who has been involved in some of the incredible roleplay and storytelling I've been witness to in the past few days... it's been extremely rewarding for me, to say the least. Overall I have had very positive experiences in Vives, and I would like to broach a subject that I hope will help to maintain the postive atmosphere.
A question that comes up in every PW is higher-level characters interacting with lower-level characters. My character has gone from being a complete neophyte to more of an average-level character for the server, and along the way I have encountered many characters who were significantly higher in level. The interactions have been positive on balance, but I have noticed some tendencies that I feel should be discussed publicly. First, many higher-level characters have superior sneaking skills, and seem to find it interesting to follow a low-level group and harass them, either but doing things like opening doors and luring monsters before they are prepared for them, or by appearing suddenly and delivering a monologue. Now, I understand that many players will respond "well, that's what my character -does-! He's a trickster and loves toying with people." That may be true, but in player-to-player terms, I find it rude and annoying, and I believe many others do, as well.
Meta-gaming is bandied about a lot, and usually in a negative way. However, there are definitely positive forms of meta-gaming, like using the player stone to see where folks are and "bump" into them, thus facilitating adventuring and roleplay. Another important form of positive meta-gaming is remembering that we're all playing this game for fun, and we like to be the stars of our own dramas (or at least important secondary characters). I firmly believe that sometimes players should weigh the appropriateness of inserting themselves into a scene and making it about themselves, simply because they have put more time into their characters and are more powerful.
Here's an example: my character was recently involved in two situations where they were duty-bound to engage in PvP to bring criminals to justice. In the first instance, the PCs on the other side of the conflict recognized the dilemma and figured out a way to avert it IC, inventing a cool piece of character background and enriching the detail of the world along with way. In the second instance, the PC decided to increase the tension of the situation and goad my character into attacking them, knowing that they were forcing me into a dilemma if I were trying to play my character faithfully, and despite the fact that I was 7th level and they were 25th. In my opinion, the former should be encouraged and the latter discouraged. One might say the second PC was acting in character and was justified. I can definitely see that point of view, but I firmly believe that there is a time and place for meta-gaming, and this was one of them. The sad thing was, this second encounter interrupted a very extended and intense piece of roleplay, and ended up completely destroying it.
I don't want to make this into a personal thing - the second example above was resolved to both of our satisfaction, I believe, and despite a heated moment or two, ended civilly. I would just like to get this discussion going now, since there seems to be sides forming across a broad conflict with PCs on both sides, and this type of encounter is sure to become more frequent in the future.
Thanks for your thoughts,
VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 01:07 PM |
The sad thing was, this second encounter interrupted a very extended and intense piece of roleplay, and ended up completely destroying it.
My two cents on this:
If there was no ooc harm done, I'd say the extensive piece of roleplay was not interrupted, but rather took an unforeseen turn. It might not have been what you as a player were trying to accomplish story-wise, but that's the thing with interacting with people: you never know for certain in what directions "the RP will take you". Easiest is just to go with it -- and if your character got goaded into fighting the other PC, I think you did well by doing exactly what your character would have done. Also, the other player (the one whose PC goaded yours into attacking) might not have had the same goal in mind, story-wise, and perhaps he/she thought this fight would make for a tense and fun RP event (as roleplay-driven PvP can be a very rewarding experience). |
<WickedArtist> I'd imagine a baby as a REALLY BIG kidney stone |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 01:31 PM |
First, many higher-level characters have superior sneaking skills, and seem to find it interesting to follow a low-level group and harass them, either but doing things like opening doors and luring monsters before they are prepared for them, or by appearing suddenly and delivering a monologue. Now, I understand that many players will respond "well, that's what my character -does-! He's a trickster and loves toying with people." That may be true, but in player-to-player terms, I find it rude and annoying, and I believe many others do, as well.
First off, anyone who is opening doors to lure monsters is involving themselves in PvP. While it might not be direct PvP, it is indirect PVP and thus Vives' rules of PVP still need to be followed.
Now, it is not against the rules to follow someone. I've never played a stealth character before, but I couldn't imagine a reason not to follow people if you ran into a few of them. That's the whole reason why my character walk most of the time, incase someone is following me. I know it's not fun for me to take double as long to travel though an area, but the potential of what someone could hear that is spying is a great deal of fun.
As for the encounters, there are always ways out of PvP. Say you're leaving to go get the guards, say that the authories will find you eventally but you're not going to act by yourself, ask the person to come with you. PvP should be very rare (only happened once in the past two weeks and that was probably a petified PvP) and it is us to both parties involved to not have to engage in it. |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 01:49 PM |
Hello all,
First, many higher-level characters have superior sneaking skills, and seem to find it interesting to follow a low-level group and harass them, either but doing things like opening doors and luring monsters before they are prepared for them, or by appearing suddenly and delivering a monologue. Now, I understand that many players will respond "well, that's what my character -does-! He's a trickster and loves toying with people." That may be true, but in player-to-player terms, I find it rude and annoying, and I believe many others do, as well.
First off, these are my personal views, as I have not returned to active DM status here yet.
I personally prefer to address these kind of concerns directly with the players involved. And only write these kind of public posts if a problem truly has become widespread. Not having been IG I cannot say whether that is the case here, but I would be surprised if it really is. Not criticising, just suggesting a possible alternative approach.
You give an example of a sneaking PC luring a monster to you. If that really was an intentional act, then luring monsters in to attack lower level PCs is definitely not acceptable in Vives. But be careful that what you perceive as intentional may not actually have been so. Certainly I have never heard of any player ever doing this.
But sneaking PCs suddenly appearing and talking to you? This server is all about RP, and RP regardless of level. The fact they are of higher level than you almost certainly has nothing to do with it. They would probably still be able to do exactly the same to 99% of people their own level, and doubtless do so. They are probably just trying to RP and get to know you.
The only way I can see this being a problem is if they do this repeatedly, and RP in such a way as to always make it "about themselves". Drama queen RP if you like, always about themself and never allowing others to get a look in. We can all be guilty of this from time to time, as we get immersed in, and passionate about our own stories. But again, for me, that kind of RP has absolutely nothing to do with level, I have known low level characters to be just as guilty of this as epic levels.
Another important form of positive meta-gaming is remembering that we're all playing this game for fun, and we like to be the stars of our own dramas (or at least important secondary characters). I firmly believe that sometimes players should weigh the appropriateness of inserting themselves into a scene and making it about themselves, simply because they have put more time into their characters and are more powerful.
This part I definitely agree with, and as it is on the public forums now, probably doesnt do any harm for more established characters to be reminded of this. That said, it goes both ways, higher level characters are often very established characters that love to RP and interact. And there will hopefully never be a culture here that they should be less able to do so just because they are higher level than others. Just respect each other, and try not to "hog the limelight". Again, applies to all sides, regardless of level.
Here's an example: my character was recently involved in two situations where they were duty-bound to engage in PvP to bring criminals to justice. In the first instance, the PCs on the other side of the conflict recognized the dilemma and figured out a way to avert it IC, inventing a cool piece of character background and enriching the detail of the world along with way. In the second instance, the PC decided to increase the tension of the situation and goad my character into attacking them, knowing that they were forcing me into a dilemma if I were trying to play my character faithfully, and despite the fact that I was 7th level and they were 25th. In my opinion, the former should be encouraged and the latter discouraged. One might say the second PC was acting in character and was justified. I can definitely see that point of view, but I firmly believe that there is a time and place for meta-gaming, and this was one of them. The sad thing was, this second encounter interrupted a very extended and intense piece of roleplay, and ended up completely destroying it.
Did you have any ooc communication at all in the second instance? If the high lvl PC was being unnecessarily provocative I would have sent a tell along the following lines:
"I am playing a LG character, this is becoming a difficult situation, please can you escape or make some allowances to let this end without escalating into PvP"
In a similar way as to the guidelines on PvP here and if they do not do so, then grounds to ask a DM to have a chat with them at a later date. Logs of any such discussion always useful. But 99.9% of the time the players here will all react very nicely to any such request.
There is an alternative view. I have been on both ends of this kind of example. As the considerably lower level character I have attacked, following the PvP rules, and been soundly beaten. Because it is what my character would do...and can be a good development / incentive for a PC to grow.
Alternately I have been approached by a certain now very renowned character, who was then a very low level. When I was playing Muga, my most belligerent character. Despite my rp making it clear that I wasnt looking for a fight, and wasnt the sort of character that should be insulted, this character proceeded to insult and taunt Muga beyond all tolerance. Because there was a ridiculous disparity in level I actually broke RP with the amount of chances I gave for them to flee...along with issuing every warning required by the PvP rules. But it was IC for their character to do as they did, and they made it clear they had no problem accepting the consequences. As such, they were swiftly decapitated (yes I turned subdue off) and that was an end to the matter. Absolutely no bad blood or ooc hassle resulted at all from this incident.
But the simple fact is there are high level, evil PCs here. They may well try to be a little nicer to those much lower level than them...but if you push things with them they are totally within their rights to react accordingly. If you came up to Muga and tried to arrest her, or started accusing her of something, or insulting her, she -would- react. I wouldnt be looking for that to happen, but if you saw her doing something illegal, and tried to arrest her, on your head be it! *grins* This is meant to be a real world, so when you see someone that you IC know to be absolutely beyond your ability to deal with, surely the best IC response is to leave them well be...and go for help / make a report to your superiors / tell others what you saw.
Again, all I am trying to say is be careful of perceptions here. It might be your perception that the other character was the one provoking. But equally well, they might believe that a much lower level character directly challenging them was through that act being provocative. Neither "perception" is 100% correct, but both have some validity. Like most things, friendly ooc communication can prevent such problems nearly all of the time.
I don't want to make this into a personal thing - the second example above was resolved to both of our satisfaction, I believe, and despite a heated moment or two, ended civilly. I would just like to get this discussion going now, since there seems to be sides forming across a broad conflict with PCs on both sides, and this type of encounter is sure to become more frequent in the future.
Thanks for your thoughts,
VK
Not sure I agree this kind of thing is going to become more frequent. There has been Midoran / anti-Midoran feelings for a very long time now. Same for Black Hand / Fire knives. Naruthians/Helkrissian/Vilyavian PCs. And countless others. Generally these disputes are RPd well, with minimal PvP, because -both- sides work around them. Just because one side is a lower level does not put all the responsibility on the higher level. All are equally entitled to respect, fun, and RP opportunity.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 02:31 PM |
I personally play tons of sneaky characters. (What can I say? I love being able to sneak around.) And when I see someone, I do typically follow the person. Rarely is it a higher level than I am (simply because following higher levels around typically leads to going into an area that's swamped with really big bad monsters) and with the lower levels (majority of the time) I just try to keep the poor fool alive Whether it be walking around and healing the person up when they're getting the snot beaten out of them, or thinning out the crowd of monsters the person accidentally annoyed all at once, I generally try to be helpful to the situation. So I wouldn't sweat the whole sneaking thing too much. |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 03:40 PM |
I'll try to be coherent in posing my two cents here, as I've been on both sides of this coin. I very much dislike PvP personally, though conflict is often essential to stories. I play a character currently who will follow people around, most especially those people she is interested in or might want to keep an eye on (i.e. a paladin in PR or Buckshire, someone she doesn't know but arouses her curiousity in some way.) This isn't necessarily a hostile action, and I can say I almost -never- check a players level when doing this. If she's caught (which has happened) she's likely to deny she was "spying" and make up some reason she is where she is.
Re: PvP and reacting as your character would. There seem to be many levels to this, and as Sirac said I'm as likely to break character to allow someone as many chances as possible to avoid PvP as I can. Usually it's in clues of stance/reactions such as "eyes go hard as she gazes intently into his face" or "slowly moves a hand to the shaft of her spear". Try to remember that it's on both chars to avoid PvP, and that the other char might have seen it as a break in their char actions as well. Compromise is often needed when this happens, as well as communication.
I can see where your character might see it as his duty to apprehend criminals, however consider his level of common sense as well. It can often be reached as a compromise, as someone mentioned before, and end up being a good piece of non-violent conflict resulting in some IG tension/enmity between chars instead of an all out fight in that moment. I've been in both situations, and agree it can be rather sticky. If all else fails taking a moment for some OOC discussion of resolution is always a good option! |
Trishy
Macha Sparrowsong - Song is my life
Coretta Alandar - Cleric of Midoran
Dekla Debena - whatever
Not all people who wander are lost.
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 03:48 PM |
Thanks for the thoughts, they are helping my own thoughts precipitate out of all of this.
FYI, most of your suggestions were actually what happened - I retreated and reported the event to the authorities. OOC communication was there - although in hindsight, probably not as constructive as it could have been.
When I refer to "sneaking" I guess I mean more "revealing", as in popping up right in front of another character, just to prove how cool you are. It's one thing if its something that happens between folks who know each other; it just feels sometimes like folks pop up to show off and then pop back out, with nary an introduction or any sort of meaningful contact.
Funny that there should be mention of a lower-level taunting and harassing you, because that very thing also occurred, and I forgot to mention it. That interaction proved a great opportunity for RP for both characters and lead to an interesting relationship development.
I totally agree that PvP can be good, and appropriate. I also completely agree with messing around with evil characters - actually I have an ongoing interaction with an evil character, and it has proved.. well, delicious, because it's been developed and drawn out and is more of... I don't know, a relationship. It's been a two-way exchange between two characters, rather than one character dominating another.
Please understand that I'm not suggesting that higher level characters never interact with lower levels - quite the opposite. Some of my most memorable experiences so far have been with characters of much higher level. All I'm saying is, make sure that you're INTERacting, and not just acting. If your goal in making contact with a character is to prove how cool you are, I think you should rethink initiating that contact.
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 03:54 PM |
I think the -only- thing I disagree with you on now is the focus on level. For me, that is irrelevant. Your points about playing style apply to all levels.
The fact someone is a higher level / able to do something "special" isnt really all that relevant. As long as they RP, and allow you to do so also, then all is good?
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 04:11 PM |
I disagree. If your character is that 'stout' and 'brave' and you are RPing them to expect conflict, no matter the difficulty of the opponenent they play -- Good RPINg. If you just want to pretend your character is stout and brave, but only do so against characters that to you do not seem nearly as powerful thats your call. I think its important in roleplay to recognize when your characters are vastly more powerful than you and to A) Cower in Fear, or B) Roleplay your character as you see fit, and see its consequences.
You can't ask a Paladin to be fearless, even in the heart of danger,but then never ask that danger to come foreward. Its like asking the DM's to lower the CR of any monster a person runs into because they are "fearless" and its not fair that they "know" they have to fight it the creature -- avoid the creature, or change your RP.
On the flip side however, if your character is not usually arrogant, or pressing with his obvious experience and power -- its not fair to Meta-game these traits.
BUt if you play an aggressive meglomaniac, I think its MORE than fair game to want to try and force other weaker characters into uncomfortable scenes of conflict. This is the trickier parts of being a villain (And when I mean conflict I am NOT refering to PVP) But I think these kind of characters ,should, definatley be allowed to "Flex" Their muscles. I think its riddiculous that some people come into the presence of characters many times their level, watch them perform tremendous feats of Magic or Skill and are mootley impressed, or their opponents stand "Fearless". I see a magician flinging thousands of magic missiles and coating himself in magic armors, I get my arse outta there if he's not my friend!
But heres my other little twist, since I don't think levels dictate these kind of things. I think you can be a powerful character, levels or not. I still try to stay awe inspired by lower level abilities and skills. For example , if someone just uses cold ray and says "Take this!" I take it as it is, a low level spell...Romulus laughs at you. Now you say , "Watch this!" *So and So opens up a tiny little box, a straight beam of frost seems to emerge from it* -- I am suddenly amazed, because I can't do that :).
Sum up, no I think its wrong to blame someone for aggressive roleplay style, especially if you are roleplaying an aggressive person as well -- if you don't like the role, play a pacifist. |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 04:44 PM |
In the second instance, the PC decided to increase the tension of the situation and goad my character into attacking them, knowing that they were forcing me into a dilemma if I were trying to play my character faithfully, and despite the fact that I was 7th level and they were 25th. In my opinion, the former should be encouraged and the latter discouraged. One might say the second PC was acting in character and was justified. I can definitely see that point of view, but I firmly believe that there is a time and place for meta-gaming, and this was one of them. The sad thing was, this second encounter interrupted a very extended and intense piece of roleplay, and ended up completely destroying it.
Okay, let me start by saying that this was me.
Now, let me continue by apologizing profusely for ruining your role-play, but this was not in any shape, form, or facet my intention. I truly wanted to introduce myself, make friends, get involved, and not be particularly evil. But, on the other hand, Balthor's not gonna lie, and if you ask him questions like "Why are you to be killed on sight by Midor?" you're probably gonna get an answer.
There was a short OOC discussion where I was told "You're forcing me into a PVP situation" and that would have been most unfortunate because my responce (both IG and OOG) "Go ahead, but it's not gonna be pretty." I had no intentions to kill anyone (I keep a variety of non-lethal spells that say "I win" regardless - hold monster, dominate monster, that sort of thing), but it really wouldn't have ended as you might have hoped.
I don't think that PVP was the answer in that situation and Balthor constantly tried to convince her "Listen, I don't want any trouble, I'm here to make friends, maybe do some business, you can relax and sit down." For the record, Balthor is Chaotic Good. He really does do whatever is right by him and his morals.
Alternatively, as far as your very extended and intense role-play, I am truly sorry, but, well, that's what happens in a world where there's more than you in it. People walk by, people involve themselves, people interrupt and these sort of things happen. You can't expect to be left completely alone on the Great Plains. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 23 Dec 2005 07:02 PM |
Diablo,
Thanks for putting a name to my situation - I honestly had no idea who it was, and I really didn't want this thread to be about one instance or one person. I feel like our situation was resolved and I don't think that you intended to do anything other than join the conversation. You're totally right - we were out in the open, and were interrupted numerous times. I hope that you don't see this thread as attacking you in any way, it was more something that had been percolating for a while for me, and kind of reached a head for me last night.
I just wanted to discuss this issue, precisely because it wasn't one instance or one player - it was several different situations over a period of time, and seemed to me like something worth addressing. I think the community chest in the Four Winds and the public information fora are excellent examples of how folks are welcomed into Vives, and that this server is in general extremely nube-friendly, and I wanted to help maintain that for others.
I think it's interesting to get different viewpoints from different folks about things, and the things people have posted about this issue have definitely given me something to think about for my own RP.
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Playing Nice
Posted: 24 Dec 2005 01:06 PM |
First, many higher-level characters have superior sneaking skills, and seem to find it interesting to follow a low-level group and harass them, either but doing things like opening doors and luring monsters before they are prepared for them,
In general, I consider this is griefing.
If I clearly catch someone doing this to other players, especially lower level ones, I will immediately go deny on their application and then investigate afterwards.
Having said that, there are many circumstances where monsters can get moved out of place, appear where they have not seen before. Just because a monster appears where you dont expect it to, doesnt mean that someone is messing with you. Part of the "living, breathing, world" bit means that things can and do change. Never assume that just because you have gone into an area a thousand times with the monsters "just so" that it will be the same way the next time you go there.
As for sneaking around, sometimes I like to follow others to see if
1/ I can avoid being caught out (it's not always easy!)
2/ To watch what I think is interesting RP without appearing and thus disrupting what is going on.
If you are having a problem, discuss it with the players involved ooc via tells. The standard of players in Vives, I think, is very high and differences can be resolved peacefully without spoiling anyone's fun.
If you cannot, come talk to the DMs and we will do our best to deal with the issues before they get out of hand... usually by killing all involved gruesomely because we are impartial that way.
- Paul
PS: I'm kidding about the gruesome killing bit. I only kill the ones I like. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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