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Forums  > General  > General  > Enhanced combat?     Display using: Flat View Threaded View   Oldest to newest Newest to oldest Previous Thread :: Next Thread   Author  Thread: Enhanced combat?  Night Fox Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 15 Send PM   Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 01:09 PM Just a thought to spice up Vives combat, one which can be implemented fairly easily i think (dont hold me to that, im not too hot with the toolset yet) and will add a huge deal of unpredictability and excitement to Vives. Ok, firstly i'll explain what made me think of this idea. Imagine this: two identical level 5 fighters with exactly the same stats / gear / status etc. are having a dual. One of them has full hit points, and the other has 2 hit points, who would be the better fighter? Well, the answer is, neither of them would be. For all of the diminished health the second fighter has, he still has lost no combat effectiveness whatsoever. The second part of my idea what caused when my character had to succeed three concentration checks in a row to cast a bless spell. Being attacked on multiple sides by big hairy orcs whilst im trying to remember the right words and motions for the spell, only to cast it perfectly after having been hit three times just seems a little false. Now, my proposal (or, if you like, my challenge to the scripters out there). It comes in two parts, for physical damage and magical: Physical fights: How about adding some exciting temporary effects to Vives combat system? Say, on every melee attack made by a character or monster alike, there was a 2% chance you hamstring your opponent - this could slow their movement speed by 30% for 2 rounds or something. What if you manage to land a glancing blow on their arm (say again a 5% or something chance of hitting them on an arm) this could decrease their number of attacks per round by 1 for 2 rounds. A blow to the head? Daze for 1 round maybe. Magic-slinging: The wild mage of Throne of Bhaal was my inspiration for this. For every spell cast in combat, there could be a 5% chance of failure. Perhaps make it a reflex save for every spell cast that it doesn't go hideously wrong. Upon spell failure, you could have another roll for the type of effect that happens. One of the following things could happen on a fail: caster takes 1D4 damage (+1 per level), caster is stunned, caster becomes prone etc. If, upon the initial reflex save for spell failure, the caster hits a critical failure, the penalties would be more severe, such as: caster takes 1D8 damage, caster becomes confused, caster in fact casts the OPPOSITE of their spell on the target they chose. The last one i feel needs more explanation. Say you cast bless on yourself, and critically fail your throw - this would cast Bane on yourself. Likewise, if you cast Bane on your enemies, it would instead bless them (this would have to be cast by a script, because the player obviously cant positively buff his enemies). If for some reason you choose to Bane yourself and you fail, then it would become a bless. For any spell that doesnt have a reverse counterpart, a dispel could be used instead. Anyway, just some ideas which i think would make combat much more exciting than the predictable "you swing, i swing, you die" scenario.  Barnas Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 3322 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 01:56 PM I think that enhancing critical successes and failures on rolls would be good. The bless to bane idea is a good example of this. or, a 1 on a concentration check causes a wild spell effect (1d6 splash damage to you per lvl of the spell). However, going much beyond that is not part of DnD. It is, IMHO< therefore likely to unbalance the system. Wild magic itself is a good effect to add, and I would like to see it. But not everywhere. Wild magic is also a beneficial effect (It's a d100 roll with a huge variety of effects). Glancing blow to the arm is the called shot feat. That's what it's for. It's unfair to essentially give the feat to everyone, IMHO. -Feel free to ignore this post.  Dens Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Total Posts: 1221 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 02:11 PM I dont really see what can be unbalanced with going out of the old normal DnD system.. but i guess that's cuz i dont really like DnD and prefer vamp/freeform.. I posted somewhere about critical failures with spells.. and i really think it can add to the game play.. espacially if it will be calculated by char and spell lvl.. i.e a lvl 1 will have 10% messing up their lvl 1 spells.. while lvl 10 will have 1% or something like that.. I think it will be easier with spells.. tho i think it can be nice to a fumble rolls with weapons.. cutting yourself.. breaking the weapons.. killing the opponent with single hit.. daze him.. altho each one will have like 1% and the total stuff that can happen will have a 5% (that's the 1 on the d20 =p) anyway this can be polished a bit more.. and I think it will really add to the gameplay.. and will be neat.. as well it will fix the problem of low lvl spell casters going around and cast spells.. and will make people think twice before going to slaughter the entire dungeon they can kill without a problem.. cuz they might actually risk themselves.. their weapons.. etc. could be nice if it would be able to target other unit.. or something.. Dens and his thougts.. but I slept only 5.5-6 hours so I hope it helps =p You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p  Landru Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 740 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 03:45 PM Physical fights: How about adding some exciting temporary effects to Vives combat system? Say, on every melee attack made by a character or monster alike, there was a 2% chance you hamstring your opponent - this could slow their movement speed by 30% for 2 rounds or something. What if you manage to land a glancing blow on their arm (say again a 5% or something chance of hitting them on an arm) this could decrease their number of attacks per round by 1 for 2 rounds. A blow to the head? Daze for 1 round maybe. I like your ideas, but these are rogue and monk feats (crippling strike, called shot, stunning fist)... To give them to everyone would be unbalancing. Additionally, Sap is a feat that can be taken by any class that provides similar benefits. I know combat can seem kinda boring after a bit... but fortunately, one does not need to rely on constant combat to have a happy life in Vives. ;) Question Authority!  Night Fox Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 15 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 05:25 PM The point was made earlier that the system i proposed wasn't very D&D - well, i say so what? Sure Vives uses the D&D system but it has it's own world and it's own xp system, so why not a better combat system? Also, since Vives is a PW it makes sense therefore that you would try to make it as realistic as possible (the reason behind limited merchant funds etc.), therefore having a character at 1 hit point of life performing at peak efficiency just doesn't seem right. If you're going to make a PW realistic, improve all areas of it. Let's face it, everyone hates simple melee especially at low levels. Why? Because you've done it so many times before. Swing, miss, swing, miss, swing, hit. As for unbalancing - since the enemies have exactly the same chance of wounding you as you do them, i call that balanced. For class and feat issues - sure you can use sap, called shot and crippling strike anyway without need for the new system. People might argue that it's unfair for all classes to effectively have these abilities without using the feats. I would respond that the monk/rogue etc. can turn the feat on/off at will, therefore making it much more useful. Also, these feats would always be beneficial to the character, rather than relying on blind luck to score a blow to the head against something. Secondly, the combat system works with regular combat so the monks / rogues don't have their feats made redundant, they gain the same bonuses potentially than other classes, with their feats on top. You could make it so the chance of failure for casting or your vulnerability to these special attacks is dependant on your current hp. I did have another cool idea but i've forgotten it now, so i'll tell you guys when i remember it, lol. :P  Barnas Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 3322 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 05:29 PM Hey! I -like- the DnD Melee system! :P *rolls d20* YES! A 19! How can it -get- more exciting? Joking, of course. I like the idea more reading it through again, but I don't think that some feats should be made "free" by a new combat system. Just doesn't sit right with me. Perhaps world wide wild magic would be cool, as long as there were good things as well as bad,  Alosynth Joined: 11 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 1324 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 06:00 PM Well I'd have to agree these ideas certainly sound interesting and I cant think of anything in them I'd object to in theory. However, the things I might have issue with are how implementing these could be done without A) Causing too much lag to the server, and most improtantly B) Wearing out our wonderful builders. Now since I no next to nothing regarding this stuff, I'll leave it up to Aria, Arathorn, and Q to answer that. ~Alosynth  Night Fox Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 15 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 06:16 PM For the wild magic, a table could be made using CASE IS statements etc. Perhaps even copy as much as possible the wild magic table from ToB manual. NWN has lots of interesting things to do with random effects though. I think that there should be increased risk depending on spell level. Cantrips should have 0% chance of failing since they require so little power, 1st level spells have 5% with every successive level after that adding 1% chance of failure. For instance, level 20 wizard casts a cantrip - 0% chance of wild magic failure thing. Same wizard casts a 2nd level spell, incurs a 6% chance of failure. With a 9th level spell, the magic failure increases to 14% - which i think is a good way to balance out mages at high levels. It should also stop people from casting spells over and over for xp. Another interesting idea i had was the "mage burn-out." This could be implemented in two ways. Firstly it could just be a 1% chance upon casting a spell that the mage will draw too much power (or the arcane energies surge and overcome the caster) and the mage will "burn-out." Secondly, and perhaps more interestingly, is that the chance of burning yourself out is judged by the number of spells you cast before you rest again. Say you cast 8 buff spells, your mage is manipulating a lot of energy (and applying it to his/her self as protection) and so with each additional spell you cast, you increase the chance of burning out. This could also be done by getting the number of spells a caster can actually cast and comparing it to the number he/she HAS cast - for example, if a wizard has cast 60% of his spells (excluding cantrips maybe) then he/she has greatly increased the odds of burning out. So what is burning out? I feel that Vives needs to seperate itself further from traditional D&D ideals. I'd like to think of my arcane caster as grappling with fierce energies that can benefit or consume him (if anyone has read The Wheel of Time, you'll see how the magic system is very different in Jordan's world). Burning out is what happens when a mage wields too much raw energy or the power overcomes him briefly and he is unable to channel it into a proper spell. The burn out should silence the caster, perhaps apply a blindness / deafness effect to them temporarily, and stun them for a few rounds. The effects of burning yourself out need to outlast the temporary shock and sickness, so maybe the caster is silenced until rest, or another effect is applied that reduces stats / throws etc. till rest. Just a few ideas there. I'd love to see Vives become a game in its own right, not a D&D clone to the core. If you edit key concepts such as where the casters get their power from and how it is dealt with, Vives will become far more unique.  DiabloStan Joined: 30 Jul 2003 Total Posts: 653 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 08:14 PM I don't like the idea of increasing the "realism" in NWN combat. First off, we shouldn't be aiming for realistic fights. Second, you see it as "realism" I see it as "Let's make it harder for everybody." Third, the system works. It's why the game is so good. There's special feats for every sort of special combat circumstance, and let's face it; if you're a fighter, you're gonna have all of 'em. If you're a wizard, with any luck your Concentration score is gonna be nuts (mine is like 22) and you're gonna cast those goddam spells. The reason wild magic effects exist is, surprise, for wild mages. Don't move around rules like that for the sake of reality; if you did, you might as well label every character 0th level wizard/sorcerer/rogue/fighter/barbarian/bard/cleric/paladin/ranger/druids because "realistically," people can dabble in every sort of skill and take parts from every sort of thing and with enough time master everything. Everybody wants to make the game "realisitic" but there is a line. There IS a line. - [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas.  Aria Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Total Posts: 1035 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 02 Sep 2003 08:47 PM First off, let me thank NightFox and most others for thoughtful, polite suggestions. I enjoyed reading most of the ideas. However, on an implementational side of things, the combat engine of NwN is entirely closed to scripters / builders - the fact that there have not been any workarounds for the broken Parry skill testifies to the fact. There is simply no way of telling whether someone rolled a 20 or a 1. After thinking for a while, actually, I'd like to refine my above statement; it is possible to bypass the combat engine of NwN completely, and reconstruct one's own, but that (i) would be frighteningly resource intensive for CPU-cycles maybe better spent elsewhere (despite playing primarily a paladin myself, I'm no big fan of combats), (ii) would probably introduce alot of bugs that is not inherent within the NwN-combat engine (heh. Afterall, Bioware staff are getting paid professionals!) As to magic, the situation is equally dismal; the functions that allow scripters to tap into individual spells is minimal (for example, the GetSpellInnateLevel() I have constructed several days ago is a first of its kind - after over a year of busy community-in-the-toolset!); there is currently no known, reliable means to distinguish between different caster levels. -- As a more pleasant aside - this post reminded me of some Vives background that I wanted to work on with a number of you. If you're interested in working closely as a team of writers penning-polishing some ancient metaphysics/background, feel free to PM me, and we'd see how we'd fit from there. Aria So talented, so troubled.  Night Fox Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 15 Send PM   Re: Enhanced combat? Posted: 03 Sep 2003 08:53 AM Ah well, worth a try.And you can certainly count me in for the Vives background writing! Previous Thread :: Next Thread  Page 1 of 1   Forums  > General  > General  > Enhanced combat?