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Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 03:32 AM |
Hi folks,
Muga is getting close to where she -could- choose the above feat. I have already spoken briefly to Ara about it and said I will not take it without talking with him first. I have no NWN experience of this feat, but from what I have heard its overpowered.
So my question is simply is this going to be banned from Vives? If so I totally understand. If not then its a very appropriate feat for a character like Muga and I will be taking it in a couple of levels. I know CPC's have it, but they dont count! :0)
As for arguments either way...well Premonition in a game with no +5 weapons and maximised IGMS probably both more powerful. Or HIPS some would say likewise. *shrugs*
On the other hand anything that can give an auto high save death fct on any given blow is pretty dang silly. If this was more of a PvP server then I think it would -have- to be an illegal feat. Luckily its not so its only the poor monsters that would get hit by it! :0)
Anyway, enough waffle. Personally I expect it to be banned...but would like a ruling either way so that everyone knows.
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 03:49 AM |
my cpc doesn't have it (as a side note)
Sug. |
"ehehehehe,.."
Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo. |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 05:17 AM |
As you said before, other feats should be banned aswell then.
As you said HIPS, should be put as a feat for higher levels. |
Long Live the Fighters!
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 07:01 AM |
I regret to say that devastating critical is far more powerful than anything else IG.
Spells can give the fighters +5 weapons to get past premonition.
Spells can protect you from IGMS.
However, Deva Crit has none of this to defend it.
Devastating critical ignores damage reduction.
Devastating critical ignores damage immunity.
Devastating critical's save is -higher- than a spell cast by a caster: 10+1/2 lvl+STR Mod
Let's work that out for Muga, assuming a fairly conservative 34 STR.
At lvl 22, where she can take the feat, the save will be 33. That's just mental.
That's why I'd like to see it banned.
Not to mention how hard it would then become, as a DM, to provide a challenge for any party with Muga in without the complete and repeated slaughter of all other party members.
So Barnas says: "Ban it for PCs"
Or perhaps "Ban it for PCs below lvl 30" =P
-Barnas |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 07:25 AM |
K, tend to agree with you Barnas...but just a few questions / devils advocate arguments.
Does death ward not work against dev crit? Cos if it does a spell -does- offer protection. I really dont know if the spell works though? But immune to criticals does work...which a fair number of high lvl critters have...where they dont have immune to IGMS or auto cut through premonition.
The argument that spells can get past premonition and IGMS. Greater magic weapon cast by a 15th lvl caster gets past premonition. Not going to happen that often...specially not for the poor monsters.
I dont want to get into the whole PvP thing as would prefer it couldnt even happen in vives, but lets face it premonition is an auto winner in -most- PvP situations.
And IGMS, a spell can indeed protect against that. So once again spellcasters are fine...if they have the spell memorized and cast at just the right time. But anyone else is screwed. That one spell kills Muga and most other chars I would guess. And more importantly will auto kill at epic levels a huge percentage more creatures than dev crit would.
Deva crit you have to hit and get a critical against a creature susceptible to crits...which many creatures arent. If Muga does that she normally does circa 80 dmg anyway...enough to kill or reduce to near death most creatures. And you have to have a huge strength and use two epic feats to get it. The bigger critters will be those the feat is most useful against...and thats where I tend to agree its probably too powerful.
Anyway, like I say playing devils advocate here. And if any of my arguments are incorrect insofar as game mechanics are concerned then apologies, Im no expert.
*wonders how long it would take to get to lvl 30* :0)
And the only thing I have to -seriously- disagree with you on, is you finding it a challenge to slaughter the entire party including Muga! I've yet to see you struggle to do that!! *grins*
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 08:48 AM |
Does death ward not work against dev crit? Cos if it does a spell -does- offer protection. I really dont know if the spell works though? But immune to criticals does work...which a fair number of high lvl critters have...where they dont have immune to IGMS or auto cut through premonition.
Death ward does not work against deva crit.
The argument that spells can get past premonition and IGMS. Greater magic weapon cast by a 15th lvl caster gets past premonition. Not going to happen that often...specially not for the poor monsters.
There are scrolls IG which do this, and we give the monsters magical stuff to make sure they're balanced against PC power. That doesn't mean every monster has a +5 weapon, it might not mean any monster has one. But it does mean they'll still be a challenge despite any mage spells ETC.
I dont want to get into the whole PvP thing as would prefer it couldnt even happen in vives, but lets face it premonition is an auto winner in -most- PvP situations.
Just not true. =P
And IGMS, a spell can indeed protect against that. So once again spellcasters are fine...if they have the spell memorized and cast at just the right time. But anyone else is screwed. That one spell kills Muga and most other chars I would guess. And more importantly will auto kill at epic levels a huge percentage more creatures than dev crit would.
Again, not true. When you get epic, IGMS begins to fade in power as spell resistance and huge HP become more common.
Deva crit you have to hit and get a critical against a creature susceptible to crits...which many creatures arent. If Muga does that she normally does circa 80 dmg anyway...enough to kill or reduce to near death most creatures. And you have to have a huge strength and use two epic feats to get it. The bigger critters will be those the feat is most useful against...and thats where I tend to agree its probably too powerful.
Overpowering critical is enough of a bonus.
And the only thing I have to -seriously- disagree with you on, is you finding it a challenge to slaughter the entire party including Muga! I've yet to see you struggle to do that!! *grins*
I try to provide a challenge which means that the party -really- has to fight, but don't all get killed. The problem with Muga and Deva crit would be that anything I spawned in order to challenge her would eat the other party members in no time. Which isn't good. ;)
-Barnas |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 09:00 AM |
Fair enough then...enough debate, will wait for the official 'ban' but seems if death ward doesnt work its even harder than I thought.
The only thing I would say is that you dont seem to accept just how hard spellcasters are comparitively. Put 20th lvl Muga into the same tests as a 20th lvl wizard or cleric and Muga will die a lot more often, and be able to kill a lot less.
But all that said...dev critical does seem too powerful...even moreso than I initially thought it would.
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 09:43 AM |
A 20th level wizard could have black blade of disaster, which has Dev Crit too, so she would definately loose :P
I beat the Demon at the end of HotU with one hit, all thanks to Black blade of disaster... if dev crit gets taken out, will the blade no longer have it as well? Cause that thing is ridiculous! 1 spell and you get what would take a fighter a LONG time to get. |
Eim Wioyu - errant knight of Midoran gone flipflop
Alinana Amraphen - shh |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 09:48 AM |
Pfft black blade of disaster...
Ignore it and kill the mage. When he has to defend himself, the blade goes away.
Shame the AI doesn't see it like that. =P
-Barnas |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 10:31 AM |
| Is the Bioware Devastating Critical different than the PnP version? And if so how? |
~Alosynth
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 10:32 AM |
I don't think there -is- a PnP version, is there?
-Barnas |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 10:36 AM |
Yeah, there is. It's the same, with one very, very big difference.
The DM can't just say IG "This creature is not affected by devastating critical."
-Barnas
[Yes, I answered my own question. I looked in the Epic Level book. =P] |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 10:39 AM |
pfft? and attack the caster? cant hit what isnt near, I run away like mad in circles when I'm a mage leaving whatever feels like chasing me to be hit by the black blade, which will eventually critical, and eventually kill it... or just rely on buffs takin hits, or just be invisible or.. or... lotsa spells :p
The black blade is insane against a fighter! if it has crit then a fighter should be able to get it, since it takes dedication to get, and any mage could get it with no trouble at like, 15th level? |
Eim Wioyu - errant knight of Midoran gone flipflop
Alinana Amraphen - shh |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 10:44 AM |
The two are totally different.
The spell is a 9th lvl spell, lvl 17+, and lasts for 1 round per level. At most, it will be around for 140 rounds every rest.
During that time, the caster can do -nothing else-.
I'm also not sure that the black blade -does- have Deva Crit. I think it might just have planar rift properties, fort save vs death.
I don't think PCs should be able to take it. It adds nothing to gameplay, and only serves to overpower certain PCs and make the job very hard for DMs.
-Barnas |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 10:56 AM |
Have to say as Barnas is principal dm for the 'red wearing maniacs' his opinion should count for a lot. Muga is a prime example of what a character capable of taking deva critical would be like...so if he thinks it would unbalance things high chance it should be banned. As long as the ban is universal doesnt make a whole lot of difference to me.
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:06 AM |
| Dev Crit is by far the most powerful feat in the game. It's like giving a fighter the ability to do endless HTH Finger of Death attacks. The point is, yes, casters can match it, but only a few times, Dev Crit works over and over. The main issue being that the DC is too high and it has unlimited uses. If the DC was more reasonable or it had limited number of uses it would be fine. Any possibility of making one or both of these changes to it in Vives? I'd hate to just ban it, fighers do need some compensating power at high lvl. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:15 AM |
140 rounds where you can kill in one hit isnt that bad especially with critical fails on a roll of 1. But I think you might be right anyways, the demon has immunity to crits, and no death immunity.. *whistles*
Instead of removing dev crit, couldnt you just make it a death effect? I personally dont see the need, since there is a way around it, called Immunity to Criticals, which all undead and many other things have (any real tough enemy should have immunity to criticals)
a 34 DC death effect isnt that impressive, a 23rd level monk with 34 wisdom (kinda like a 23rd fighter with 34 str which is what you suggested could have dev crit) has quivering palm which comes at will, and has a DC of 10 + 11 + 12 = 33. And they don't have to sacrifice atleast two epic feats to get it (it comes to all monks) |
Eim Wioyu - errant knight of Midoran gone flipflop
Alinana Amraphen - shh |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:21 AM |
| Yes but how many times can they do Quivering Palm? The issue is the High DC + Unlimited uses. I dont want to see the feat go either, I hope it can just be toned down to bring it more in line with other abilities (cut the DC in half for example, which would make it dangerous to weaker opponents and leave at least 5% instakill on powerful enemies) |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:23 AM |
a 34 DC death effect isnt that impressive, a 23rd level monk with 34 wisdom (kinda like a 23rd fighter with 34 str which is what you suggested could have dev crit) has quivering palm which comes at will, and has a DC of 10 + 11 + 12 = 33. And they don't have to sacrifice atleast two epic feats to get it (it comes to all monks)
*laughs*
*laughs*
*laughs some more*
*wipes tear from eye*
Quivering palm is once per day. Deva crit is about once per round.
-Barnas |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:25 AM |
| Oh and while were at it... the Pale Master touch attackes need their DCs raised.. they are a joke and have limited uses. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:26 AM |
But Palemasters become immune to deva crit! ;)
They should call that class "Wait 10 lvls then you can't get deva critted."
-Barnas
[This response -is- meant to be a parody on this post. ;)] |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:31 AM |
Dev Crit is by far the most powerful feat in the game. It's like giving a fighter the ability to do endless HTH Finger of Death attacks. The point is, yes, casters can match it, but only a few times, Dev Crit works over and over. The main issue being that the DC is too high and it has unlimited uses. If the DC was more reasonable or it had limited number of uses it would be fine. Any possibility of making one or both of these changes to it in Vives? I'd hate to just ban it, fighers do need some compensating power at high lvl.
DEV CRIT requirements for success (23rd level character)
You have to first be able to hit the thing
They must not have immunity to criticals
You have to then actually critical hit them successfully
They then have to make a fort save or die
Finger of Death requirements for success (7th level spell, 13th level caster)
You cast it
You must bypass their spell resistance
They must not have death immunity
They make a fort save or die
I don't think that dev crit has all that much on finger of death. Most mages would die in close fighting anyways, but they have a million ways out of such. And a focused mage in necromancy by 23rd level can have an insanely high DC on finger of death, and with metamagics could have tons of fingers of death ready, a cleric can have a a bunch of implosions ready.
And dev crit has unlimited uses, but is not at will. It requires hitting what your fighting, and criticalling it, and palemasters, for instance, are immune to them. |
Eim Wioyu - errant knight of Midoran gone flipflop
Alinana Amraphen - shh |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:33 AM |
| I think I'd have to agree with Lal on this one. |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:35 AM |
Quivering palm is once per day. Deva crit is about once per round.
-Barnas
Its a free feat you get at level 15, what do ya expect? does not take two epic feats |
Eim Wioyu - errant knight of Midoran gone flipflop
Alinana Amraphen - shh |
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Re: Devastating Critical
Posted: 01 Jun 2004 11:38 AM |
Well I'm saying, absolutely, that I do not want to DM players with devastating critical.
It's the only circumstance when I will say to a player "Sorry, you are too powerful for this quest. I don't want you involved."
It is -impossible-.
I will say it again.
It is impossible
To provide a challenge for a player whose character has devastating critical, yet also be able to accomodate characters below level 20 without consigning them to a constant dirtnap.
-Barnas
[Please note that this statement is in my opinion, and does not represent any rule from the DM team of Vives.] |
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