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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:21 AM |
Oh, it's slightly subdued right now PDW. Imagine how much worse it would be You'd see an entire subsection of the forum dedicated to the whining about it ;o |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:33 AM |
| humour is wasted on the young. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 10:43 AM |
humour is wasted on the young.
Those whippersnappers.
Need to read a good book instead of being glued to that blasted idiot box.
Why, in my day, we didn't have no T.V. or no Cable... |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 11:47 AM |
| *Still prefers the library or Project Gutenberg* |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 12:43 PM |
I am also against permadeath for similar reasons to Wicked Artist.
Please consider reincarnation seriously. In answer to WA it is not the same as creating a new character. Same abilities, same starting class for a start.
The idea was that a high level character could die a tragic and noble death and then his reincarnation could appear to continue to continue his task. (a bit like Glorfindel in The Silmarilian)
The player would be roll playing the character as similar but younger. As the character progressed he might even discover his identity through some means.
I thought It would work particularly well for monks from an RP perspective. I can understand it poses problems from a balance point of view though.
Oh, and ignore the 'level 15' bit. I won't know what number would work best there until the xp functions discussion has progressed. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 12:51 PM |
I would rather see a "No experience gaining for X time" system. There's nothing quite like finding out you just lost the last four months of experience to make you want to put your keyboard through your monitor.
Is it possible to make a character care IG about character death more than the player OOG? I think so.
A system where you're restricted from gaining experience for a time encourages role-play. If you can't get any experience (or perhaps just combat experience?) for the next 12 hours, you have to go role-play and hang out for a while.
As a LARPer, I approve of a permadeath system. At our LARP, every time you die, you have a chance of not coming back (you pick a card from a deck, 4 cards of 65 say "bye bye"). I've been developing the same character for about three and half years now, and I've come close to kicking it a few times. In systems where permadeath is a possibility, people take death very seriously. I would not be against it in Vives. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 01:02 PM |
It's hard to balance a healthy "fear" of death and also scaring people away from adventuring alltogether.
We'll try our best though :) |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 02:29 PM |
:)
Well you knew the guyver'd show up sooner or later to drop his 2cp in, so here goes...
As usual, my suggestion is prolly real hard to program, but *shrugs* hey here it is.
Chunk Swordslinger 19th level Scull Crusher has 10 xp to go to get to 20 He rounds a corner in a dungeon and steps on a epic trap some evil DM left there from a few hours before when he was messing with some adventuring gnomes. Long story short... Chunk lands up at the Sisters with a bad headache, and 4010 xp to go to get to lvl 20. Ouch.
There have been many times, (and I know that I am not alone), that this happening to Johe gave me a sick feeling in my stomach, and caused me to log off in a huff and do anything BUT play Vives for quite some time. Is that the intention of our esteemed DM crew? Some might say yes, because it causes that "fear of death" thing that, I will admit, and agree is quite important. However, I don't believe that the DM crew intends for that fear of death to turn into a severe dislike for the game, when that fear turns into a sickening reality that slaps you in the face and says "Hardy Har Har! you just wasted the last 10 hours of your life getting a bunch of combat xp, and that DM bonus you got for that EXCELLENT bit of RP between you and that drunken mage with the mondo fireball spell he was going to unleash on Brandibuck? GONE! HAHAHAHA!!!" Well...everyone but PDW I'll bet ;)...
So what I am suggesting is taking a long look at what happens to our little avatar friends when they in fact do snuff it, and figure out a way to do it that creates a fear of death, while being realistic, but not creating any negative feelings toward the game itself.
The reincarnation idea, just doesn't do anything for me. Some of us put a great deal of work into the psyce of our characters, and frankly, the reincarnation would be as bad as permadeath for those characters.
I, for one, would like to see something along the lines of a small, token, xp loss (say .5 % or so), along with the no xp restriction (combat and discovery xp mind you, half dead people who can still RP their butts off deserve whatever the DM's want to give 'em), for whatever amount of time you come up with, wether it be an hour or whatever. But along with this I'd like to see the TRUE physical aspects of what I imagine it must be like to be revived from a severe a$$whoopin'. A lot of good RP'ers try to do this in Vives 1, but imagine how interesting things would get if EVERYONE, had these post death difficulties?Strength decreased by 1/2, slowly returning over a period of time equal to the amount of time the PC can't get xp. Con and Dex decreased by 1/2 as well, and returning slowly. This allows for a lot of interesting things to still happen to the PC, but doesn't penalize that PC xp that he or she earned through a lot of effort prior to his or her untimely demise. For those of you who don't think this is "tough" enough, it may, (if you think about it) be TOO tough. Imagine a party going into a tough dungeon. Chunk Swordslinger falls in a shower of Atalan arrows. He is dragged to shelter and raised by Goud E. Tooshoos the cleric but now he can barely carry the armor he's wearing , let alone heft that massive sword. Now the party has to figure out a way to get the hells out of there AND bring Chunk's stuff along too.
well...
anyway...
there it is :)
EDIT: Yes I AM saying this should be something that happens wther a Cleric raises you or not. The cleric raising you could then become a more "believable stunt", and maybe we could make it less taxing on the cleric to cast the spell as long as it has it's limits? Then there's also the "buffs" that could come into play etc etc AND you can bet it makes death SCARY as hellll!!! ;) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 02:39 PM |
I would do away with an XP penalty all together. If you want to make it so small as to make it negligable, you might as well make it negligable entirely, by not existing. ;)
All in all though, I like the whole "No combat XP for X time", and even the "Weakness slowly fading away over X (or even Y) time." Certainly something to discuss. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 02:41 PM |
| Sounds Good Johe, I for one would be happy to see that system put in place. I would rather the time limit was measured in real time than game time though. Obviously the amount of time should be longer in this case. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 05:22 PM |
Here's another vote for Johe...I like it...it's realistic and it causes problems that have to be overcome. But I think perhaps something like:
Raised con and str set to say 5 ...you get 2 con and 2 strength back in one day of game time.
Now what about head injuries? =P
Course a dwarf is tougher so his con would be +2. Maybe even recover at a faster rate? |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 07:50 PM |
I like Johe's idea lot. Overall, I like the notion of penalizing "post-death" rather than "pre-death".
Johe said it and said it well: it creates a great deal of frustration dying and losing all your prior achievements, even for hardcore role players - ESPECIALLY for hardcore role players.
That said, I can see a lot of problems with such a system. I don't find it creating the feeling of "loss" that makes you take death seriously, that makes you afraid of your PC dying. The penalty period of no XP can be negated by a simple notion that says: "I died, I get no XP for a week, but what's stopping me now from making repeated attempts at Lynaeum to get that cool loot I want?" and thus a situation arises when you have "nothing" or "very little" to lose. A similar situation is already created when a PC just reached a new level and isn't afraid of dying since the XP lose will be negligible.
The loss of character stats is an interesting notion, and certainly prevents making repeated attempts as mentioned above by weakening your character. However, if the penalty lasts too long your character is limited from participating and enjoying other occasions to their full extent. The penalty lasts too short and it doesn't make any real difference.
It's a really good idea, but it has to be expanded or otherwise it fails to create the same feeling of loss that the current penalty system does.
On another topic: Resurrection.
Resurrection and Raise Dead are relatively powerful cleric spells, some more than others, to which Vives added its own penalty - making it a potent but dangerous resource to have. Resurrection should PREVENT the penalties a respawn creates, otherwise it's just a "respawn at the place of death" which doesn't really create a strong effect, certainly not one that is worth an added penalty or serious role play value. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 02 Nov 2007 08:43 PM |
I think a good way to limit resurrection and raise dead, if it were to be used in this context, would be to make it so that however long the character that died would have suffered penalties for death, the cleric is prevented from casting resurrection and raise dead again for that same amount of time instead. I would make scrolls of resurrection and raise dead not be restricted by these penalties, however, either not making scrolls of those two spells scribe-able at all. Or, alternatively, if each time a character dies, it has to wait longer before effects wore off, you could make it so scribing each scroll treats the character like he died, in the manner that it would increase the amount of time he would have to wait for effects to wear of for the next time.
So, for example, if time for effects were something like (deaths) x (3 minutes), and the character had 10 deaths, for a total of 30 minutes, instead scribing one of these scrolls would make it like the character died 11 times, so next time he (or she) did respawn, it would instead take 33 minutes. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 02:22 PM |
I like Johe's idea lot. Overall, I like the notion of penalizing "post-death" rather than "pre-death".
Johe said it and said it well: it creates a great deal of frustration dying and losing all your prior achievements, even for hardcore role players - ESPECIALLY for hardcore role players.
Mark that on yer calendar folks! One of the few times WA and I agree on something woohoo!
That said, I can see a lot of problems with such a system. DOH!I don't find it creating the feeling of "loss" that makes you take death seriously, that makes you afraid of your PC dying. The penalty period of no XP can be negated by a simple notion that says: "I died, I get no XP for a week, but what's stopping me now from making repeated attempts at Lynaeum to get that cool loot I want?" and thus a situation arises when you have "nothing" or "very little" to lose. A similar situation is already created when a PC just reached a new level and isn't afraid of dying since the XP lose will be negligible.
The loss of character stats is an interesting notion, and certainly prevents making repeated attempts as mentioned above by weakening your character. However, if the penalty lasts too long your character is limited from participating and enjoying other occasions to their full extent. The penalty lasts too short and it doesn't make any real difference.
I would say that the character not being able to participate in the other occassions would cause that fear we want.
It's a really good idea,
*goes back to his calandar with a grin*
but it has to be expanded or otherwise it fails to create the same feeling of loss that the current penalty system does.
*nods* I'll agree with that so here's a few off the wall ideas for ya, none of which may be great, but maybe they'll get the ole brain ball rollin' :)
-We lose a percentage of gold right now. Those of you who want more realism in the game should agree that the denizens that roam the halls of your neigborhood dungeon would be more likely to grab that shiney item rather than a handful of gold. Also, the longer you are in a dungeon just laying around, don't you think that that increases the number of afore mentioned denizens that would pilfer your corpse? I have also heard that the DM's dislike it when folks lay about littering dungeons. Taking all of those things... how about a system where when you die you lose a varying percentage of your gold depending on where you die. ie Die in a city, lose 10% because sooner or later, (maybe later outside of Jessup's place :P), some honest citizen will show up and take you to the medic, or to the morgue, or at least call the guard. Die on a roadway, lose 20% it'll take a little while of having bandits check you over before a traveller finds you. Die in the jungle, or the dessert, lose 30% because you'll be there a while. Die in a dungeon, lose 50% etc etc. Add to this that the longer you lay there, the percentage goes up. (I like this for more reasons than just the death thing. It has always bothered me to be a little halfling carrying around 200 000 gold pieces in the first place, with a system like that around it will get people to bank that stuff more but, as usual I digress)...THEN throw in the loss of items if that isn't enough. Now *holds up his hands palms out* I know what you're thinking, but what if we gave the PC an opportunity to save that ONE prized possesion, in so far as the computor would give the PC a choice of 2 items that would be pilfered. Or maybe even, if it turns out that an epic bauble is pilfered it is sent to a DM chest somewhere in DM land with a note on it saying who it belonged to so the DM's can toy with you as they seem to enjoy doing from time to time ;). Are we scared enough yet??
-How about depending on where you die you have a % chance of being captured by the main boss of that area, and you're just plain stuck there until someone comes to get you. You get to send notes to people saying " Please help, Meenie von Bastard has me in his clutches and won't stop making me do his laundry until someone brings him a shrubbery", but other than that you're in a world o' hurt.
Just a few ideas, I'll ponder some more I'm sure.
On another topic: Resurrection.
Resurrection and Raise Dead are relatively powerful cleric spells, some more than others, to which Vives added its own penalty - making it a potent but dangerous resource to have. Resurrection should PREVENT the penalties a respawn creates, otherwise it's just a "respawn at the place of death" which doesn't really create a strong effect, certainly not one that is worth an added penalty or serious role play value.
I respect and understand this, but would still like to see SOME effects for the sake of realism, and drama. If they did go with post death effects, and went with something like what I'm suggesting, wouldn't saving that great magic sword, and 50% of your gold, and having the effects be maybe "not as bad" as they would have been without Goud E. Tooshoos casting a res on you still make it good? I guess whaat I'm saying is, it really buggers up the cleric to cast that spell, what if the victim and the doctor at least shared the damage or something? |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 03:16 PM |
These ideas while good would make the system quite complicated. Never a good thing according to the notorious Murphy's law.
What you are suggesting is very much in the spirit of how PC death is often handled in PnP: The dungeon master discusses with the player what seems realistic, weather they are happy for their character to stay dead (usually they are not), and may choose to incorporate it into the plot if it suits the players.
The problem with this sort of thing in a persistent world is, as you no doubt realise, that a random number generator is not going to choose what makes sense as a plot. This could lead to extremely frustrating situations.
You could rule that only DMs (and clerics) can restore life to characters, but this would have serious disadvantages. Otherwise we could devise some kind of script to adjudicate respawn, but is this worth the effort? My suggestion of giving the player a choice of several options on respawn was also intended to create this kind of effect, but each option would have to include severe penalties (of course these could be different to those I suggested).
Remember though that there are also advantages to having a simple system that can be roll played in many ways. This was what I liked about your original Idea. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 03:27 PM |
| I understand what you're saying. I've been a PnP DM for 25 years or so, and I reckon a lot of the DM's and players have been as well. So you're not telling any of us stuff we don't already know. I'm just trying to throw some ideas out there to try and get more ideas thrown back so we can have an "idea fest" and give the builders something to play around with. If I understand it correctly, that's what Ara is looking for, and I enjoy obliging :). Just ask James42, I'm full of ideas, implementing them is someone elses job ;) |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 03:29 PM |
| Point taken. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 03:41 PM |
Mark that on yer calendar folks! One of the few times WA and I agree on something woohoo!
You do realize it is me who is pulling you towards the dark side? ;)
Resurrection and Raise Dead are relatively powerful cleric spells, some more than others, to which Vives added its own penalty - making it a potent but dangerous resource to have. Resurrection should PREVENT the penalties a respawn creates, otherwise it's just a "respawn at the place of death" which doesn't really create a strong effect, certainly not one that is worth an added penalty or serious role play value.
I respect and understand this, but would still like to see SOME effects for the sake of realism, and drama. If they did go with post death effects, and went with something like what I'm suggesting, wouldn't saving that great magic sword, and 50% of your gold, and having the effects be maybe "not as bad" as they would have been without Goud E. Tooshoos casting a res on you still make it good? I guess whaat I'm saying is, it really buggers up the cleric to cast that spell, what if the victim and the doctor at least shared the damage or something?
In Guild Wars, when death occurs cumulative "death penalty" is applied, which causes the one who died a negative 15% "bonus" to his overall health and energy with each death, to a certain maximum of a negative 60% penalty. Multiple deaths will quickly make a character useless until these penalties are negated. There are several ways of getting rid of these penalties: 1) go to the nearest outpost or town, and start the whole business fresh over. 2) kill monsters worth of 75 XP to gain back 1% (75 XP per Percent isn't negligible at all there). 3) kill a boss for a +2% morale bonus (which also negates death penalty). Resurrection spells in Guild Wars do not negate the death penalty - they simply allow you to "respawn" on the spot rather than start over or end up at a resurrection shrine.
Such a system can be adopted in into NWN in the same manner Johe suggested. Resurrection won't cause you to lose gold or experience, but the resurrected PC will still receive a small penalty to his abilities - not enough to cripple him for the rest of the adventure, but enough to make him worry about dying again and end up getting crippled.
I played one of the few, if not only truly active cleric for quite a period of time. I noticed how high the mortality rate can get on certain adventures - particularly ones with the presence of a DM. High/low mortality rate, I think, plays a major role in how death is perceived both IG and OOC. Putting the topics of resurrection and death penalty aside, there is an unidentifiable drop of truth in the running gag of DMs being there to kill players.
My personal opinion is that before we try thinking of a good system for deaths in Vives, we need to think about the goal we're going after with this system: we want death to be taken seriously, to mean something. First and foremost, for that end death can't be so common.
Yes, it is a note that comes for the most part to the DMs. It's true that characters and even players can be stupid sometimes, and are just as capable of dying for this stupidity, a policy of "the smart way or the highway" might serve one end of having PCs meet consequences for their action, but it may also detract from how seriously death is taken for - I've seen many cases where death was being caused very light-heartedly, even followed by an equally light-hearted resurrection, and I won't even mention the overuse of the "DM kill" button, which I think should not be used AT ALL - not even if a PC takes his sword and sticks it in the bum of the God of Everything Who Is Prone To Be Angry And Who Has Unmade Entire Realities And Dismantled Infinite Timestreams In Pure Divine Rage Particularly For Having Swords Being Stuck Up His Bum (yes, not even then).
If death is to be taken seriously, it should first be rare. If a PC dies because he's stupid and charge the Primal Dragon of Death and Carnage, so be it. If a PC dies because someone went a little overboard and had too much fun with the "create monster" button or the "DM kill" button, then that's just wrong.
I won't go to the subject of faulty game mechanics as the cause of death. It's an evil greater than any DM or other tyrant to have graced the earth. Neither am I saying DMs are just a big problem or anything like that, or that players aren't at fault too. I am saying that if a desert was filled with oases at every corner, no one would really notice them anymore, and it wouldn't really be a desert at all, would it?
P.S. since Renter has declared me as some sort of forum buddha, I'll keep coming up with these weird and unrelated metaphors. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 04:02 PM |
| Interesting and for the most part true Lord Vader. Purhaps there would be a way to come up with two separate concepts of being "knocked out" of the game? One being called "smacked comatose", and the other being called "death", and purhaps there could be a way to separate the two? Maybe 5 smacked comatose and your next one is death... or something like that, and the repercussions would be different for each, death being more serious of course... hmmm I know I'm not making much sense, but I'm musing and hope that someone picks up on my thought here and helps me with it.... |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 04:49 PM |
One thing I've noticed in life is that humans are remarkably resilient. Almost no matter what happens, from sucking chest wounds, to missing appendages, to traumatic brain injuries, if we can get there fast enough, odds are, they'll live. That's because people really don't die instantly, very often. Oh, sure, break open the occipital lobe and you're in a world of hurt. Sever the aorta and you'll bleed out real fast. But, for the most part, injuries can be treated, even if it's just basic life support with ABCs to keep life functions going until bright lights and cold steel can work their magic.
However, with fantasy worlds, people take a whole lot of hits real fast. In real life, people take a hit, they go down, and the world moves on around them. In a fantasy world, people take five, six, seven, eight hits, and might consider a potion. They get pierced repeatedly with arrows, hacked into with axes, and then suffer through the spells and curses of whatever mage might be in the back. They suffer through all this perfectly fine, and then suddenly drop dead after one thing is enough to tip the scale. We even see this in Vives now. People will be up and walking around when it says "Near Death" over their head. Even at "Badly Wounded", most people don't bat an eye.
What I might suggest, instead of going being either happy and healthy or dead, with no middle ground, I might suggest that at at "Near Death", a person goes down. Not dead down, but unconscious down. And not that they're about to bleed out. Make them pass out for a minute or two, let the monsters go back to their usual haunts, and then give them a chance to get back up. This gives the party a chance to actually help a member who goes down "unconscious", keeps plenty of the drama, and makes death rather a bit more rare and difficult to achieve. And I would have it so even at -9, they're going to make it back up to 1 again, instead of being 99% certain they're just going to go down to -10. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 05:24 PM |
I among many players of D&D in all it's guises, consider hit points to be a measure of how much energy a character has left:
I fence on a regular bases and if people don't get a rest of a few minutes here and there their performance deteriorates very quickly. I have also seen a test on television (although I do not usually consider this a reliable source of information) of a man in full plate fighting non stop for as long as he could physically lift is sword. He lasted two minutes or so and had to stop.
Another reason for this attitude is the way the constitution score is added to the hit point total. When you consider that the system says that two humans with different constitution scores can take a different number of stab wounds before dieing it seems ludicrous. Tasra should probably have the last word on this, but I would have thought that people don't vary that much in the amount of blood/organs they can manage without.
Having said that, I think the respawn system should be based on what works best in terms of plot rather than what is realistic. This, after all, is a game about heroes and magic rather than real people. But most of all the game is about story.
PS. Just a reminder, the difference between comatose and dead in D&D is normally the difference between -1 and -10 hit points. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 03 Nov 2007 06:31 PM |
"Another reason for this attitude is the way the constitution score is added to the hit point total. When you consider that the system says that two humans with different constitution scores can take a different number of stab wounds before dieing it seems ludicrous. Tasra should probably have the last word on this, but I would have thought that people don't vary that much in the amount of blood/organs they can manage without. "
How long it takes for someone to drop depends on different aspects. A person with adrenaline pumping can take a bit more, for two reasons: Adrenaline and dopamine are both released, the first has a life-sustaining quality, as it causes hypercardia and hyperperfusion, basically, it makes your heart beat faster (moving oxygen carrying blood to your cells quicker) and raises your blood pressure, getting the blood actually into the cells. (Hypoperfusion is also known as shock, which is bad.) The dopamine is a natural opiate your body produces which knocks out some of your pain. At the same time, someone with mind altering drugs, such as methamphetamines, can also take a lot of hits before dieing. That's because their mind doesn't recognize the need to drop, so unless you physically knock them down (such as with a large caliber pistol, such as the .45" Colt 1911) they can soak up hits from a small caliber pistol (such as the 9mm Barretta) and keep fighting.
So, yes, different constitutions can take different amounts of damage simply because of the body's different abilities to cope with pain. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 04:16 AM |
"Another reason for this attitude is the way the constitution score is added to the hit point total. When you consider that the system says that two humans with different constitution scores can take a different number of stab wounds before dieing it seems ludicrous. Tasra should probably have the last word on this, but I would have thought that people don't vary that much in the amount of blood/organs they can manage without. "
How long it takes for someone to drop depends on different aspects. A person with adrenaline pumping can take a bit more, for two reasons: Adrenaline and dopamine are both released, the first has a life-sustaining quality, as it causes hypercardia and hyperperfusion, basically, it makes your heart beat faster (moving oxygen carrying blood to your cells quicker) and raises your blood pressure, getting the blood actually into the cells. (Hypoperfusion is also known as shock, which is bad.) The dopamine is a natural opiate your body produces which knocks out some of your pain. At the same time, someone with mind altering drugs, such as methamphetamines, can also take a lot of hits before dieing. That's because their mind doesn't recognize the need to drop, so unless you physically knock them down (such as with a large caliber pistol, such as the .45" Colt 1911) they can soak up hits from a small caliber pistol (such as the 9mm Barretta) and keep fighting.
So, yes, different constitutions can take different amounts of damage simply because of the body's different abilities to cope with pain.
This is also one of the reasons alcohol has been suggested to increase constitution IG. In Oblivion, Alcohol of different levels decreases mental attributes (intelligence, willpower, personality) but increases physical ones (endurance, strength).
However, I think what Frimble meant is: if I stab a man of weak constitution twice in some sensitive place (barring lethal spots), and he's sure to die because of it, how many more stabs can a man of high constitution take in the same sensitive spot before he dies? Three? Four? Six? Ten? TWENTY?
The rules of D&D can suggest very high numbers, which make very, very, very little sense to be. That's why I don't like to look at HP as the overall state of the character's physical injuries, but more as a combination of physical and even mental factors which decide when exactly does one fall. The "last hit" which brings you down to me is that one hit you no longer had the strength to endure - a knockout.
Tasra: note that there IS an "unconscious" state for characters who fell in which they are bleeding from hit points 0 to -10 and can be healed by any method. The problem I see is that the more you rise in levels, the more your opponent does, and the damage outputs are higher, thus a single strike or spell can take you down way past that -10.
My suggestion is: make that "knockout" last strike just a knockout strike. Even if it WOULD take a character to -10, it would "only" knock him down to a 0, from which point he will fall and begin to bleed. Any consequent strike or lack of aid would result in his death. Furthermore, you could even introduce a minor temporary penalty for characters who were "knocked out" and then healed, so that it won't be taken for granted, but won't be too significant either.
Right now, characters who are knocked out are especially lucky. That range of 10 hit points from unconscious to dying becomes more and more insignificant as levels rise, even in the aspired mid-levels of Vives2. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 06:39 AM |
How long it takes for someone to drop depends on different aspects. A person with adrenaline pumping can take a bit more, for two reasons: Adrenaline and dopamine are both released, the first has a life-sustaining quality, as it causes hypercardia and hyperperfusion, basically, it makes your heart beat faster (moving oxygen carrying blood to your cells quicker) and raises your blood pressure, getting the blood actually into the cells. (Hypoperfusion is also known as shock, which is bad.) The dopamine is a natural opiate your body produces which knocks out some of your pain. At the same time, someone with mind altering drugs, such as methamphetamines, can also take a lot of hits before dieing. That's because their mind doesn't recognize the need to drop, so unless you physically knock them down (such as with a large caliber pistol, such as the .45" Colt 1911) they can soak up hits from a small caliber pistol (such as the 9mm Barretta) and keep fighting.
So, yes, different constitutions can take different amounts of damage simply because of the body's different abilities to cope with pain.
We can probably take hit points quite literally then.
Eugh. I don't envy you your job Tasra.
I don't think sensitive points come into this WA, thats covered by the critical hit rules.
Notwithstanding, I maintain that we should take a narrative approach to respawn. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives 2 Respawn Discussion
Posted: 04 Nov 2007 08:03 AM |
I'm just going to quickly copy and paste from a previous post I made...
"What I might suggest, instead of going being either happy and healthy or dead, with no middle ground, I might suggest that at at "Near Death", a person goes down. Not dead down, but unconscious down. And not that they're about to bleed out. Make them pass out for a minute or two, let the monsters go back to their usual haunts, and then give them a chance to get back up. This gives the party a chance to actually help a member who goes down "unconscious", keeps plenty of the drama, and makes death rather a bit more rare and difficult to achieve. And I would have it so even at -9, they're going to make it back up to 1 again, instead of being 99% certain they're just going to go down to -10."
Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. When the little health indicator under their name says "Near Death" because they only have 15 hit points left, they would go unconscious, making the unconscious range from 15 to -10, giving a 25 point range to let it fall in. It would vary from character to character as to what that "Near Death" range was. And further, I would make it so the critters leave the player alone once they drop. Nobody keeps attacking a corpse, they move on to the other things that are trying to kill them. |
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